Why does Eschatology divide the Church into 3 camps

[Noose]

This is a serious heresy, but its not the topic of this thread.

Did you read the verses i quoted and did you understand them?
It is easier to label things heresy and dismiss and ban people but how i'm i wrong?
And how many times was Jesus referred to as the Father in the bible?

 

[trofimus]

Did you read the verses i quoted and did you understand them?
It is easier to label things heresy and dismiss and ban people but how i'm i wrong?
And how many times was Jesus referred to as the Father in the bible?

If you wish, create a thread about it, I will respond there.

 

[Noose]

If you wish, create a thread about it, I will respond there.

I don't want to be banned for heresy as you put it. You can respond via private messages.

 

[OneFaith]

Thats not the point of hierarchy either, to be favored by God more or less.

There is no hierarchy in Christ. No promotional positions. "If the foot should say to the hand 'because I'm not a hand..." all parts of Christ's body are equally important, and an elbow does not get promoted to a wrist, etc.

 

[trofimus]

There is no hierarchy in Christ.

I am not sure what you mean by this.

But there is a hierarchy in the body of Christ, in church.

"If the foot should say to the hand 'because I'm not a hand..." all parts of Christ's body are equally important, and an elbow does not get promoted to a wrist, etc.

Hierarchy is not about being important more or less. Body needs head, hands, legs and fingers. Church needs apostles, elders, various ministers and common members.

 

[OneFaith]

I am not sure what you mean by this.

But there is a hierarchy in the body of Christ, in church.


Hierarchy is not about being important more or less. Body needs head, hands, legs and fingers. Church needs apostles, elders, various ministers and common members.

We all have our positions in Christ, but, lol, no one is promoted.

 

[trofimus]

We all have our positions in Christ, but, lol, no one is promoted.

I am probably loosing you. Not sure what you are saying.

 

[MarkWilliams]

Don't say the Holy spirit WILL lead..., He needs to lead you right now.
For a long time i followed men's explanation about these things, read the bible severally alongside thousands of men's own works/ understanding but all these positions kept contradicting and non made sense to me no matter how much i tried.

I gave up and in total humility told God whatever it is, let it be- coz i'm a fool with no understanding.
Now everything is clear to me.

Jesus even in His trial told those in attendance that from that moment on, they'll see the son of man sitting at the right hand of power and coming with the clouds of heaven.
He also told His disciples that they won't finish going round all the towns in Jerusalem till He comes back
He also told them that some standing there would not taste death before he comes.
Full chapters of John 14/15/16 - Jesus explains how He comes back, even the disciples didn't understand then.

Let no one say that it is a point in future, Jesus has always been coming and coming as a spirit into believers who make up the kingdom of God. Until the last believer is added into the kingdom, the end will come. It is the end we are waiting for.

I'm a bit confused, I thought Jesus said He would send the comforter meaning the Holy Spirit and not His own Spirit

 

[justpassinthrough]

My local Church has lost members who didn't agree with our stance on Eschatology.

I don't see why it's such a contentious subject, we can hold different views and remain a faithful Church.
How does holding one of the three views effect your Christian walk. Our Church holds to an A Millennial view.

It was sad to see these brothers and sisters go over such a trivial issue (in my view), it was obviously a big deal to them.
I still don't have a clear picture in my mind, how each of the different views effects our walk with God.

I'm sure it's not an issue in all Churches, so why is it such a big deal in others like mine. Our senior Pastor just told me it was their own decision to leave and he wasn't going to change our stand to accommodate them.

Could somebody please explain the three views in simple terms and why they are so important to the Christian.

I don't really know what three views you are referring to, but I can give you three significant things that occur at His coming.


15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep. 16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord. 18 Therefore comfort one another with these words. 1 Thessalonians 4:15-18

Three major things occur at the coming of the Lord: The Gathering of His people: Resurrection, Rapture, destruction of the false messiah.

Here is the order of those three things:

1. The resurrection of the dead in Christ: the dead in Christ will rise first...
2. The Rapture: Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them...
3. The destruction of the false messiah [antichrist]: destroy with the brightness of His coming.

Now, brethren, concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him, we ask you, 2 not to be soon shaken in mind or troubled, either by spirit or by word or by letter, as if from us, as though the day of Christ had come. 3 Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless the falling away comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition, 4 who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God or that is worshiped, so that he sits as God in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God. 5 Do you not remember that when I was still with you I told you these things? 6 And now you know what is restraining, that he may be revealed in his own time. 7 For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work; only He who now restrains will do so until He is taken out of the way. 8 And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord will consume with the breath of His mouth and destroy with the brightness of His coming. 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8



Once these three things are understood, then there is no more confusion about when the resurrection and rapture will take place.




JPT

 

[Stunnedbygrace]

I'm a bit confused, I thought Jesus said He would send the comforter meaning the Holy Spirit and not His own Spirit

God IS Spirit. The Holy Spirit IS God. The Trinity is a difficult thing to try to grasp. You can't quite do it.

 

[hornetguy]

To the OP.... I am of the firm belief that worrying/arguing about end times is absolutely a waste of time. Eschatology is an interesting thing to study, if you are of that nature, but it is in NO way a salvation issue. If you believe in any of the 1000 year reigns, pre/post/none.... whatever.... it makes NO impact on your salvation. NONE.

If you are involved in a church (sounds like your preacher is pretty level-headed about this) that gets torn apart by something as unimportant, scripturally, as this.... you are in the wrong church, brother.

It makes as much sense as arguing over whether to use strong wine or grape juice for communion. It doesn't matter.

Jesus taught us to be ready... just live our lives in readiness for the coming of the king/bridegroom/etc.... He didn't teach us to worry about it, just live every day in readiness. Because, in reality, the end of the world for YOU could come as you read this sentence.

If you think it's all that important, do a survey.... ask 10 eschatology nuts, I mean, students what their view, or studied opinion is on the details of the rapture/millennium, and you will likely get 12 different answers. Each one of them will swear up and down that they have "studied it for 30 years" and "the Spirit informed me that MY understanding is correct."

In matters of importance, God is not the author of confusion. MAN is the author of confusion.

The details of "end times" DO NOT MATTER. The main thing is to live in readiness..... we KNOW how the whole thing ends....

Praise be to God for that....

 

[MarkWilliams]

I do not think you should confront your pastor over this, unless it is to say you think he should not present his view on endtimes as the correct one but rather should present the differing views. Share his own opinion on which he thinks is correct, yes, but teach it as the right view, no. It's just not a salvational issue. I've met many men who walk with God who hold a different view than me on endtimes.

Some take this subject very seriously, they say if you hold to the wrong view you have fallen victim to the Doctrine of Demons. Yet others like yourself don't see it as being an all important component of our faith. I used to think that the Bible was pretty straight forward and not that complicated to understand and most of it is of course, this is just one of those difficult subjects.

 

[MarkWilliams]

God IS Spirit. The Holy Spirit IS God. The Trinity is a difficult thing to try to grasp. You can't quite do it.

Our Elders teach that the Holy Trinity consists of three distinct Persons existing in One Godhead

 

[DevotiontoBible]

To the OP.... I am of the firm belief that worrying/arguing about end times is absolutely a waste of time. Eschatology is an interesting thing to study, if you are of that nature, but it is in NO way a salvation issue. If you believe in any of the 1000 year reigns, pre/post/none.... whatever.... it makes NO impact on your salvation. NONE.

If you are involved in a church (sounds like your preacher is pretty level-headed about this) that gets torn apart by something as unimportant, scripturally, as this.... you are in the wrong church, brother.

It makes as much sense as arguing over whether to use strong wine or grape juice for communion. It doesn't matter.

Jesus taught us to be ready... just live our lives in readiness for the coming of the king/bridegroom/etc.... He didn't teach us to worry about it, just live every day in readiness. Because, in reality, the end of the world for YOU could come as you read this sentence.

If you think it's all that important, do a survey.... ask 10 eschatology nuts, I mean, students what their view, or studied opinion is on the details of the rapture/millennium, and you will likely get 12 different answers. Each one of them will swear up and down that they have "studied it for 30 years" and "the Spirit informed me that MY understanding is correct."

In matters of importance, God is not the author of confusion. MAN is the author of confusion.

The details of "end times" DO NOT MATTER. The main thing is to live in readiness..... we KNOW how the whole thing ends....

Praise be to God for that....

Paul didn't think it a waste of time. He wrote 1 Corinthians addressing the error of their over-realized eschatology because it is a threat to the Gospel.

 

[MarkWilliams]

To the OP.... I am of the firm belief that worrying/arguing about end times is absolutely a waste of time. Eschatology is an interesting thing to study, if you are of that nature, but it is in NO way a salvation issue. If you believe in any of the 1000 year reigns, pre/post/none.... whatever.... it makes NO impact on your salvation. NONE.

If you are involved in a church (sounds like your preacher is pretty level-headed about this) that gets torn apart by something as unimportant, scripturally, as this.... you are in the wrong church, brother.

It makes as much sense as arguing over whether to use strong wine or grape juice for communion. It doesn't matter.

Jesus taught us to be ready... just live our lives in readiness for the coming of the king/bridegroom/etc.... He didn't teach us to worry about it, just live every day in readiness. Because, in reality, the end of the world for YOU could come as you read this sentence.

If you think it's all that important, do a survey.... ask 10 eschatology nuts, I mean, students what their view, or studied opinion is on the details of the rapture/millennium, and you will likely get 12 different answers. Each one of them will swear up and down that they have "studied it for 30 years" and "the Spirit informed me that MY understanding is correct."

In matters of importance, God is not the author of confusion. MAN is the author of confusion.

The details of "end times" DO NOT MATTER. The main thing is to live in readiness..... we KNOW how the whole thing ends....

Praise be to God for that....

Thank you so much for for putting a smile on my face, I feel so much better after reading this. I felt perplexed and overwhelmed by the complexity of this subject, I didn't want to drag our pastor through the mud over it again. We had some people leave the Church over this and I feel the Elders didn't do anything to deserve it. I feel Those people were unreasonable to leave over this matter.

 

[garee]

My local Church has lost members who didn't agree with our stance on Eschatology.

I don't see why it's such a contentious subject, we can hold different views and remain a faithful Church.
How does holding one of the three views effect your Christian walk. Our Church holds to an A Millennial view.

It was sad to see these brothers and sisters go over such a trivial issue (in my view), it was obviously a big deal to them.
I still don't have a clear picture in my mind, how each of the different views effects our walk with God.

I'm sure it's not an issue in all Churches, so why is it such a big deal in others like mine. Our senior Pastor just told me it was their own decision to leave and he wasn't going to change our stand to accommodate them.

Could somebody please explain the three views in simple terms and why they are so important to the Christian.

The Amil position works the best when searching for the hidden understanding found in parables, literature that is "signified" . We must remember the law of interpretation.. that without parables using the temporal things seen used to reveal the unseen eternal, Christ the Holy Spirit spoke not to the multitude (believers that have faith and unbelievers, no faith )

In order to signify it is to make know by a sign. You could say the book of Revelation gathers all the previous metaphors together in one book .

So not only did the Holy Spirit sent it he also signified it.

The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent "and" signified it by his angel unto his servant John: Revelation 1 :1

Revelation 1:1 sets up the kind of language used throughout the book .

For instance chapter 20 gives us the parable and we must look to the spiritual signified understanding.

Revelation 20:1 And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.

Can't literally see an angel and neither do they have literal flesh and blood hands, and the key signifies the gospel that the gates of hell could never prevail against. a bottomless pit when signified simply mean no end .and literal chains could never bind something that has not DNA

2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,


No literal dragon, as a fallen angel called the father of lies, also referred to as a serpent . The word thousand as it is used many, many times through the scriptures represents a "unknown", unrevealed in respect to whatsoever is in view to include a time factor . Christ will come as a thief in the night .It will be like in the days of Noah everybody doing the common things they had been doing after the imagination of their own deceitful hearts (natural man) .

Then will come the final wrath on the last day... Judgment day for the unbeliever and the final resurrection rolled into one work for those who do have the faith of Christ working in them they will receive the propnse as the goal of their faith a new incorruptible body .

 

[hornetguy]

Paul didn't think it a waste of time. He wrote 1 Corinthians addressing the error of their over-realized eschatology because it is a threat to the Gospel.

Can you be more specific about what Paul said in 1 Corinthians that would indicate that the study of end times is a salvation issue?

 

[MarkWilliams]

The Amil position works the best when searching for the hidden understanding found in parables, literature that is "signified" . We must remember the law of interpretation.. that without parables using the temporal things seen used to reveal the unseen eternal, Christ the Holy Spirit spoke not to the multitude (believers that have faith and unbelievers, no faith )

In order to signify it is to make know by a sign. You could say the book of Revelation gathers all the previous metaphors together in one book .

So not only did the Holy Spirit sent it he also signified it.

The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent "and" signified it by his angel unto his servant John: Revelation 1 :1

Revelation 1:1 sets up the kind of language used throughout the book .

For instance chapter 20 gives us the parable and we must look to the spiritual signified understanding.

Revelation 20:1 And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.

Can't literally see an angel and neither do they have literal flesh and blood hands, and the key signifies the gospel that the gates of hell could never prevail against. a bottomless pit when signified simply mean no end .and literal chains could never bind something that has not DNA

2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,


No literal dragon, as a fallen angel called the father of lies, also referred to as a serpent . The word thousand as it is used many, many times through the scriptures represents a "unknown", unrevealed in respect to whatsoever is in view to include a time factor . Christ will come as a thief in the night .It will be like in the days of Noah everybody doing the common things they had been doing after the imagination of their own deceitful hearts (natural man) .

Then will come the final wrath on the last day... Judgment day for the unbeliever and the final resurrection rolled into one work for those who do have the faith of Christ working in them they will receive the propnse as the goal of their faith a new incorruptible body .

Thanks Garee, I do appreciate you taking the time to articulate and explain this to me in simple terms.
I have recently converted from Roman Catholicism, so I'm trying to learn as much as I can about God's Word. We were never encouraged to read the Bible in the Catholic Church, we were actually discouraged and told that it was too complicated for the ordinary person and you had to go to seminary for many years to understand it.
I now know why they don't want us to study the Bible, it exposes the RCC as an apostate Church.

 

[Noose]

I'm a bit confused, I thought Jesus said He would send the comforter meaning the Holy Spirit and not His own Spirit

I can't give you understanding in this but i'll quote a few verses that may help.

John 14:15 “If you love me, keep my commands. 16And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another advocate to help you and be with you forever— 17the Spirit of truth. The world cannot accept him, because it neither sees him nor knows him. But you know him, for he lives with you and will bec in you. 18I will not leave you as orphans; I will come to you.

John 16: 7 But very truly I tell you, it is for your good that I am going away. Unless I go away, the Advocate will not come to you; but if I go, I will send him to you.

So Jesus says the spirit of Truth was there with the disciples but He will later be in them. And He also says that if He (Jesus) doesn't go, the spirit of Truth will not come in them but if He (Jesus) goes, the spirit of Truth will come in them.

To me this is very clear that Jesus was saying He (Jesus) must go and come back as the spirit of Truth coz if He doesn't, the spirit won't come, He will remain there with them (disciples). And i'm not alone in this thinking, prophet Isaiah also thought it was so:

Isa 9:
6For to us a child is born,
to us a son is given,
and the government will be on his shoulders.
And he will be called
Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God,
Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.

Name= Authority
so the childs authority would be:

Wonderful Counselor= Holy spirit
Everlasting Father= Father
Prince of peace= son

That's why i said non of the eschatological point view is correct because Jesus has always been coming since the disciples time.

I have already been called a heretic and i wouldn't want to continue with this. cheers.

 

[DevotiontoBible]

Can you be more specific about what Paul said in 1 Corinthians that would indicate that the study of end times is a salvation issue?

The power to change lives is only in the message of the cross (1 Cor 1:17). But the Corinthians were abandoning it and Paul in exchange for "wisdom" or "meat" and wisdom teachers. They had become postmilenial/amilenial dominionists (1 Cor 4:8) because they were Charismatics with spiritual gifts (1 Cor 1:7). It is a good representation of the errors taught in the Charismatic/NAR dominionist Kingdom Now movement in the church today.