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women as church leaders and teachers
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jinx
Guest
when someone is behind the pulpit, teaching the word, telling others how to live for GOD, they are positioning themselves in a place of authority in that congregation. Is that congregation a bunch of slaves, NO. But that congregation is listening to every word that comes out of that preachers mouth, and they weigh it, and use it or throw it away. Adam listened to Eve when she said, eat. Look where that got him. She listened to the devil and now we have SIN. Women are wired different. It is not with in them to hold such a position, that is why GOD made Man the head, not the woman.
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GreenNnice
Guest
No, jinx, the person speaking from the pulpit has no authority over the congregation. He is speaking on authority of God blessing him to be behind that pulpit, but, again, it is not ever that pastor with any authority. ”...for Thine is the power, the glory, forever, amen.”
And, nope,
jinx, IF God calls a woman to pastor she is merely a vessel used by God. Pastor is a title of authority but that pastor has no authority over you nor should he ever want to have power over you. A woman who called by God to speak as a pastor will NOT be saying things on her own, she, just like a man pastor, will be saying things from Him He puts on her heart to say. The power is in Christ, God, His Holy Spirit , who convicts unbelieving man of their sinful nature an, in Love, speaks to them, asking them to choose to believe . Therein there, in 'that' act, that great awesome super natural act, lies all the power of authority
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jinx
Guest
1Ti 2:11 Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection.
1Ti 2:12 But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence.
good enough for me and I'm a woman, how is it not good enough for you?
1Ti 2:12 But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence.
good enough for me and I'm a woman, how is it not good enough for you?
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danschance
Guest
I am not one to rail against women. I am all for equal rights and equal pay. I have no problem with a female or male boss. I have no contempt or disrespect for women. Even so, I would not attend a church with a women who is senior pastor or third junior assistant pastor in charge of preaching or teaching men. No, this has nothing to do with my attitudes about women. It has to do with my attitudes and understanding of the scriptures.
I simply do not buy in to the argument that Angela has proposed that "a women" in 1Timothy 2 is referring to a woman in particular and not to women in general. 1Timothy 2:9 and 10 is referring to women and their appearance, in general. Then he mentions in 1Timothy 2:11 "a women" and "a man". Clearly he is not speaking of a single woman teaching or having authority of a single particular man, especially when he applies the argument about Eve being deceived first or more so than Adam in the next verses. The context is clearly that he is speaking in general terms about women in general and merely mentions "a women" in a general sense not a particular women.
To say that Paul is referring to a single woman is the same as forcing a square peg into a round hole. It is poor exegesis and an extreme minority view point out of sync with the rest of Christian theology. I find it interesting that many men are less opposed to women being Senior pastors than the women on this thread. Maybe satan's plan is to get men to give up their God given authority and hand it over to domineering Jezebelic women just as King Ahab did. Maybe men today need women to insist on them being in authority to reverse the modern trend of men being ever increasingly more passive, peter pan-ish and easily submit to female authority in the pulpit.
I simply do not buy in to the argument that Angela has proposed that "a women" in 1Timothy 2 is referring to a woman in particular and not to women in general. 1Timothy 2:9 and 10 is referring to women and their appearance, in general. Then he mentions in 1Timothy 2:11 "a women" and "a man". Clearly he is not speaking of a single woman teaching or having authority of a single particular man, especially when he applies the argument about Eve being deceived first or more so than Adam in the next verses. The context is clearly that he is speaking in general terms about women in general and merely mentions "a women" in a general sense not a particular women.
To say that Paul is referring to a single woman is the same as forcing a square peg into a round hole. It is poor exegesis and an extreme minority view point out of sync with the rest of Christian theology. I find it interesting that many men are less opposed to women being Senior pastors than the women on this thread. Maybe satan's plan is to get men to give up their God given authority and hand it over to domineering Jezebelic women just as King Ahab did. Maybe men today need women to insist on them being in authority to reverse the modern trend of men being ever increasingly more passive, peter pan-ish and easily submit to female authority in the pulpit.
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GreenNnice
Guest
”...over the man....”
Could this be ”...to a man...”
I mean: ”I suffer not a woman to teach or have authority TO A MAN...” Nope, that ain't what Scripture says, is it?
What does this mean then? Hmmmm..... Who is ”...the man...” is my question to you, jinX ?
Could 1 Timothy 2:11-12 refer to ”The man” = husband ? I mean, verse 13 certainly refers to 11-12 context, and, who is mentioned, Adam, The husband, then, Eve, The wife. Then, The garden of Eden transgression by Eve, her being deceived is mentioned, for why The HUSBAND is in control.of his wife . She is who is to be silent to HER HUSBAND , not just any man, but ”The man.”
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jinx
Guest
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GreenNnice
Guest
”...over the man....”
Could this be ”...to a man...”
I mean: ”I suffer not a woman to teach or have authority TO A MAN...” Nope, that ain't what Scripture says, is it?
What does this mean then? Hmmmm..... Who is ”...the man...” is my question to you, jinX ?
Could 1 Timothy 2:11-12 refer to ”The man” = husband ? I mean, verse 13 certainly refers to 11-12 context, and, who is mentioned, Adam, The husband, then, Eve, The wife. Then, The garden of Eden transgression by Eve, her being deceived is mentioned, for why The HUSBAND is in control.of his wife . She is who is to be silent to HER HUSBAND , not just any man, but ”The man.”
Nope, jinx, jus letting The Scripture's actual words YOU posted speak for themselves in a 'definite article' kinda way
Anyway, hopefully, if you receive nothing else from this 'authoritative' thread, milady, there is only One who is The Great Shepherd. A pastor merely is a vessel, a sheep, so to speak, pure, of one wife (or husband) ,whose words guide us to rest in Christ's finished work shown through His Spirit IN his spirit.
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GreenNnice
Guest
Jesus IS ”the Good Shepherd,' WE ALL are SHEEP, every last one of us, we are guided by Him. A church is irrelevant witbout Christ the head who leads the church. Through faith, one must go to church, through faith one must believe in God's Word, and, through faith one must realize that the Good Shepherd, not the sheep, HAS all authority over one's life, and, through faith The Word comes ALIVE through YOUR pastor's mere words that are powerless to you, should be, anyway, IF His power is not speaking AUTHORITY of those words' truth meaning upon your life . He is all and all.
. He is all and all.
JaumeJ, It is not the law to say that we should obey what the word of God says and this it what it says...
1 Timothy 2:12
And I do not permit a woman to teach or to have authority over a man, but to be in silence.
Notice the subject of the sentence. It is the first person singular pronoun. It is not what our Father commands, it is what "I" does not permit. Always go to Yeshua, Jesus, if you want to have an easy yoke, a light burden. Otherwise you will be at the mercy of those who say they see when they are in abject darkness. Of course if it is your assembly's tradition there is nothing more to be said. Follow your assembly's tradition according to Paul's personal preference, but this yoke has proven to be a bit too heavy for the many of the lambs.
1 Timothy 2:12
And I do not permit a woman to teach or to have authority over a man, but to be in silence.
Notice the subject of the sentence. It is the first person singular pronoun. It is not what our Father commands, it is what "I" does not permit. Always go to Yeshua, Jesus, if you want to have an easy yoke, a light burden. Otherwise you will be at the mercy of those who say they see when they are in abject darkness. Of course if it is your assembly's tradition there is nothing more to be said. Follow your assembly's tradition according to Paul's personal preference, but this yoke has proven to be a bit too heavy for the many of the lambs.
Adam partook too and was right there when Eve was being decieved, he was listening as well and partook as well both are guilty period. Did God amke a mistake with woman when he said it is not good fr man to be alone and made her from his side and took the rib.
God makes no mistakes even if it appears he has, to appear this way is a deception and creates doubt and doubt is the crippler to not having life in the Spirit of Christ by and through the cross his finished work that brings new life via the resurrection.
In the new life born of the Spirit of God by the resurrection of christ there is no male no female no Jew no greek we all are one in him to seperate this as waht is done her and there is of flesh and no flesh in God's sight will ever please for God himself is a Spirit and can only be worshipped in
John 4:24God is spirit, and his worshipers must worship in the Spirit and in truth.”
And that is because Churches here are still controlled by flesh that wants control using God as a means to gain that self control over others and has succeded in doing this just as the religous leaders had done to the jews under them in the day of Christ here on the earth, here to redeem all mankind
Nothing is new under the sun all is futile unless God is the one trusted to love through you as God does Love as shown in 1 cor. 13 wanting each of us to recieve this but can't unless we learn to deny flesh and die with Christ back on the cross so we can come to the new life that is waiting for us in the Spirit of God by the resurrection of Christ and thus we can do the Love of God that we never could do in the flesh when we were in unbelief of our flesh caranl nature to be dead, but once we do then we are alive to God by the Spirit of God and thus there is no more seperration of male, feamle, Jew, Greek and or Gentile we are all one in Christ perfected by Christ proof in the resurrected Christ that we are raised to be as well here and now by belief no doubt just as the woman was healed instantly when she touched his robe, by her Faith no doubt was in play at all
You want to be free then believe and trust and you will be set free from all these rules and regulations put forth by man today after the cross
in the Corinthian Church of that day the bald headed women there were from the brothel up above the Church and the Corinthians were being Shown truth thaey were decived about being 100% forgiven by God through the cross. This was that they took advantage of the grace as we all are warned this is not what being forgiven 100% is all about
We all are forgiven 100% of the time
2 Peter 1:9But whoever does not have them is nearsighted and blind, forgetting that they have been cleansed from their past sins.
how soon is any sin past before anyone of us can ask so we are forgiven all amle and female but it is not for anyone to take advantage of never ever meant to be this way or how s=hall anyone ever escape
Hebrews 2:3how shall we escape if we ignore so great a salvation? This salvation, which was first announced by the Lord, was confirmed to us by those who heard him.
By the new birth we have by the resurrection at the cross we are made to be one in Christ and we all can be a help one to another with out streotyping. I think we all need to put down our cookie cutter and quit cookie cutting others to be what we want them to be. Hope you all see this truth
No man or woman is our pastor, Christ is the priest forever in the order of Melchisadek a priest forever we are under Covnenant, a new law and a new priesthood this ia whatit is after the death, burial and resurrection of Christ there is no amle female in Father's sight any longer and all this stuff ot the Corinthains was correction to them because they were taking advantage of grace still carnal and so Paul used carnal mindedness to staighten them out not maturity that God is growing us all into if we will all continue to grow and forsake this carnality that so many are sticking to. God desires for us all to grow up into maturity Hebrews 5:11 -6:8
Well, why would a godly man ask anyone to do anything ungodly?
If it's a circle, then it's not a triangle.
There Siter is only one mediator between God and Man the man Christ Jesus this includes woman for she was created out of man.
And do you not think that the enemy has not come as a sheep that is a wolf, for in these last days there will be many decievers.
Decievers that are of the flesh masquerade as if they are of the Spirit and are not, they have flooded the Churches of today, we are warned of this in Scripture and man is fighting over whether a woman should do this or that. Wow!!!!!!!!!! man and women are decievers if they do not believe and there are many today you are of the tree of evil masquerading as good when there is only one good and that is God Sister God only the Father of Christ and we reach God through Christ worshipping God in the Spirit not flesh as a lot today are doing and those who believe will see this and forsake flesh and come alive to God in the Spirit of God by Christ from the cross at the resurrection of new life
Be careful Sister test the Spirits and give all to God to sort out error from truth and be free in Christ and this world's evil ways in deception that it ahs so well done to many a beleiver, but God is not mockedand God will teach truth to all that beleive and they will see and become wise as serpents but reamain harmless as doves, wise as serpents so we the believers can't be used falsely and give pearls to swine as mant do today being decieved
It's downright frustrating to hear people arguing about what they know when all they "know" is what they've heard, not what they've investigated. Where's the Bereans when you need them? When investigating this text in Timothy, what should we be looking for?
1. Who was Paul originally talking about?
2. Why was Paul telling Timothy this?
3. What was the history of that city? (Idol worship, business districts, seaports, etc.)
4. Paul always instructs concerning the sin that was infiltrating the church. What was that sin, and where did it come from?
5. Since Paul was writing distinctly to that church, what parts of the letter was Paul writing to that church that is not general doctrine for the church today? Issues of the times need to be separated from general doctrine.
6. Teachings about the issues of the times should never be equal to established doctrine. When established doctrine exists, it is always superior.
7. Whenever two Scriptures seems to contradict themselves, there are three reasons:
a. At least one of them has been misinterpreted.
b. One of them is general doctrine, and the other is specific for the times and issues of the church.
c. Neither Scripture is general doctrine, but is specific for the times and issues of the church.
1. Who was Paul originally talking about?
2. Why was Paul telling Timothy this?
3. What was the history of that city? (Idol worship, business districts, seaports, etc.)
4. Paul always instructs concerning the sin that was infiltrating the church. What was that sin, and where did it come from?
5. Since Paul was writing distinctly to that church, what parts of the letter was Paul writing to that church that is not general doctrine for the church today? Issues of the times need to be separated from general doctrine.
6. Teachings about the issues of the times should never be equal to established doctrine. When established doctrine exists, it is always superior.
7. Whenever two Scriptures seems to contradict themselves, there are three reasons:
a. At least one of them has been misinterpreted.
b. One of them is general doctrine, and the other is specific for the times and issues of the church.
c. Neither Scripture is general doctrine, but is specific for the times and issues of the church.
maybe you might need to find out the context of why Paul said these things to the Corinthian Church. What were they doing at the time? how had they reacted to the Gospel? Who were these women that were in this Church ussurping the Authority of God at the time that Paul wrote this letter to them?
Paul also wrote to the Galatians about the same usurping of authority of God brought in by men known as Judasisers they did not have the same problem as in being women, yet they both had the same type of problem the authority od Christ was being usurped by man adding works of flesh not dieing to flesh and being alive to God's Spirit
Galatians 3:1[ Faith or Works of the Law ] You foolish Galatians! Who has bewitched you? Before your very eyes Jesus Christ was clearly portrayed as crucified
And here we are adding to Faith bringing in works of Law and not being equal in the sight of each other when God has
Romans 2:11For there is no respect of persons with God.
100% agreed stephan and so I think to let each be convinced in their own minds for they give God thanks and God has recieved all of those that beleive in him through Christ. Therefore each one of us stands to our own Master and god will straighten out whatever needs straightening because we all are able by God to stand in him via Christ
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stevef
Guest
I think you may be splitting hairs there. Didn't the early prophets teach the Israelites about God and were considered Holy men of God, as are our current priests and ministers? What is your opinion of Joyce Meyer and all the good her ministry is doing around the world?