Works and Salvation

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Dino246

Dino246

Senior Member
#21
Jun 30, 2015
25,472
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#21
Soyeong said:
No, that is not circular reasoning. Circular reason is if the only reason to believe a premise is if you already believe the conclusion. The way to save someone from living in sin is by leading them to refrain from living in sin. That's not circular, but rather that is what it means for God to save someone from living in sin. Likewise, if you prevent someone from jumping off a cliff, then you have saved them from doing that. God leading us to honoring our parents is the way that He saves us from not honoring our parents.
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smh...

The way to save someone from living in sin is to introduce them to Jesus Christ. By believing in Him, they are made righteous in His sight, and the indwelling Holy Spirit changes them from the inside out so that the motivation to sin is reduced and eventually removed.

Your version appears to be, "You get saved from sin by ceasing sinful actions". Good luck with that. It has never worked for anyone else, so I can't fathom why you think you can manage it.

Soyeong said:
More smoke to obfuscate your intent to be disruptive to this thread and your refusal to address the OP.
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As I already said, I addressed the OP... by simplifying and correcting it. I can't help you accept that though.
 
K

Kroogz

Well-known member
#22
Dec 5, 2023
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#22
Soyeong said:
More smoke to obfuscate your intent to be disruptive to this thread and your refusal to address the OP.
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How is anyone supposed to address the OP? It's many words to say........."Salvation requires works."

From my experience, the works salvation folks have not a clue what the works of true believers are.
 
S

Soyeong

Active member
#23
Oct 11, 2023
847
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#23
Kroogz said:
How is anyone supposed to address the OP?
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For example, by engaging with the idea of there being a distinction between works that are required in order to earn salvation as a wage and works that are required because they are intrinsically part of what the gift of salvation is.


It's many words to say........."Salvation requires works."

From my experience, the works salvation folks have not a clue what the works of true believers are.
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The Bible is abundantly clear that our salvation requires us to be doers of works, but not in order to earn it as a wage. For example, un Hebrews 5:9, Jesus has become a source of eternal salvation for those who obey Him. In Romans 2:13, only doers of the law will be justified. In Matthew 19:17, Jesus said that the way enter eternal life is by obeying God's commandments. In Luke 10:25-28, Jesus said that the way to inherit eternal life is by obeying the greatest two commandments. In Romans 2:6-7, eternal life is given to those who persist in doing good. In Revelation 22:14, those who obeyed God's commandments are given the right to eat from the Tree of Life. In Matthew 7:21-23, Jesus said that only those who do the will of the Father will enter the Kingdom of Heaven and that he would tell those who are workers of lawless to depart from him. In Matthew 25:34-41, Jesus said that he would tell those who did not do those works to depart from him. In Titus 2:11-13, our salvation is essentially described as being trained by grace to do works.

So the goal of my OP is to show how we can understand verses like the ones that I listed along with the many verses like Romans 4:1-5 that deny that we can earn our salvation by our works as a wage.
 
K

Kroogz

Well-known member
#24
Dec 5, 2023
772
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#24
Soyeong said:
Of course, then there is the issue of what exactly it means to believe in the Lord Jesus. Our good works testify about God's goodness, which is why they bring glory to Him (Matthew 5:16), and by testifying God's goodness we are expressing the belief that He is good. So the way that we live expresses what we believe to be true about God. The way to believe that God is by doing what is just, the way to believe that God is holy is by following His instructions for how to be holy as He is holy, and so forth. This is also why there are many verses that connect our belief in God with our obedience to him, such as in James 2:18, where he would show his faith by his works.
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You completely missed it......By a mile!

This is belief/trust:

I am a sinner. I need salvation. I trust in the Lord Jesus Christs finished work on the Cross and His resurrection for the payment of my sins. I now have eternal life and shall never perish.

Justification is FINISHED.......now we move on.


Do you know how to produce fruit or the works that please God?
 
Nehemiah6

Nehemiah6

Senior Member
#25
Jul 18, 2017
26,074
13,776
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#25
Soyeong said:
There is a sense of works that we are required to have done first in order to earn something as a wage that is different from the sense of works that are intrinsically required to have the experience of doing something.
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Do you realize how nonsensical this sounds? As long as you believe that your good works will save you, you will continue to be confused.
 
S

Soyeong

Active member
#26
Oct 11, 2023
847
101
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#26
Nehemiah6 said:
Do you realize how nonsensical this sounds? As long as you believe that your good works will save you, you will continue to be confused.
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I realized that it might not be clear, which is why I gave an example. Having the experience of driving a Ferrari intrinsically requires doing the work of driving it in the same way that having the experience of salvation intrinsically requires being a doer of good works in obedience to God's law. It's not that we need to do good works in order to earn our salvation as the result, but that the experience of doing good works is part of the content of what the gift of salvation is. In Titus 2:11-13, our salvation is described as being trained by grace to do what is godly, righteous, and good, and to renounce doing what is ungodly, so that is the content of what the gift of salvation is, not something that we are required to have done first in order to earn our salvation as the result.
 
JaumeJ

JaumeJ

Senior Member
#28
Jul 2, 2011
21,429
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#28
Please understand, our faith is a gift compared to gold in the Word.

Now the Masseter went off on a far journey, leaving to His servants talents of gold, some several, some a few and some just one.

While the Master was away the servants worked to increase their gold for the Masseter.

When the Master returned he called His servants to Himself, and asked each how much they had gained using His gift.

Some made little, some made a good a mount and some made a lot from His gift.
But one, upon receiving the gift of one talent, said to himself, I know the master is very mighty and stern, so I will bury my talent in the soil until He returns.

The Master, upon learning of what this SERVANT had done, said, You knew I am strong and stern, so why did you not work with my gift to you and increase it? Then he told the others to take this worthless servant and throw him into the outer darkness where there is weeping a gnashing of teeth.

If we do not do a thing to increase thegift of faith given us by the Father in the name of Jesus Yeshua, we are become worthless servants. Note the usage of the word, servants.

Do you appreciate the gift of faith given you? Are you doing God's works given you in order to increase it? If yes, you are doing works, but not EARNINIgG a thing, Salvation is of grace not of works. Yet we are expected to do good works, sorryi to sound low, but I musst add, get it?:
 
S

Soyeong

Active member
#29
Oct 11, 2023
847
101
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#29
Kroogz said:
You completely missed it......By a mile!

This is belief/trust:

I am a sinner. I need salvation. I trust in the Lord Jesus Christs finished work on the Cross and His resurrection for the payment of my sins. I now have eternal life and shall never perish.

Justification is FINISHED.......now we move on.


Do you know how to produce fruit or the works that please God?
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In Proverbs 3:5-7, we have a choice between whether we are going to lean on our own understanding of right and wrong by doing what is righteous in our own eyes or whether we are going to trust in God with all of our heart to correctly divide between right and wrong through obeying what His instructions in all our ways and He will make our way straight, so that is what it means to believe/trust in God. God is trustworthy, therefore His instructions are also trustworthy (Psalms 19:7), so the way to trust in God is by obediently trusting in His instructions, it is contradictory to think that we should trust God for salvation, but not trust His instructions, and to deny that we should trust God's instructions is to deny that we should trust God for salvation. In Titus 2:14, Jesus gave himself to redeem us from all lawlessness and to purify for himself a people of his own possession who are zealous for doing good works, so becoming zealous for doing good works in obedience to God's law is again the way to believe in what Jesus accomplished through the cross. When we obey God's law, then the significance is not that it is part of something that we are required to have done first in order to earn our salvation, but that we are expressing our faith, and it is by that faith that we are saved.
 
S

Soyeong

Active member
#30
Oct 11, 2023
847
101
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#30
NightTwister said:
You're a self-contradiction.
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No. Works can be done for any number of reasons other than in order to be enough to earn our salvation as the result, especially because that was never the reason why God commanded His people to do good works.
 
K

Kroogz

Well-known member
#31
Dec 5, 2023
772
302
63
#31
Soyeong said:
In Proverbs 3:5-7, we have a choice between whether we are going to lean on our own understanding of right and wrong by doing what is righteous in our own eyes or whether we are going to trust in God with all of our heart to correctly divide between right and wrong through obeying what His instructions in all our ways and He will make our way straight, so that is what it means to believe/trust in God. God is trustworthy, therefore His instructions are also trustworthy (Psalms 19:7), so the way to trust in God is by obediently trusting in His instructions, it is contradictory to think that we should trust God for salvation, but not trust His instructions, and to deny that we should trust God's instructions is to deny that we should trust God for salvation. In Titus 2:14, Jesus gave himself to redeem us from all lawlessness and to purify for himself a people of his own possession who are zealous for doing good works, so becoming zealous for doing good works in obedience to God's law is again the way to believe in what Jesus accomplished through the cross. When we obey God's law, then the significance is not that it is part of something that we are required to have done first in order to earn our salvation, but that we are expressing our faith, and it is by that faith that we are saved.
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Nothing about the Lord Jesus Christ and His works on the Cross?

How do we live the Christian way of life? If we don't know how to live the Christian way of life.............all of it is dung in Gods eyes.
 
S

Soyeong

Active member
#32
Oct 11, 2023
847
101
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#32
Kroogz said:
Nothing about the Lord Jesus Christ and His works on the Cross?
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Again, I said:

"In Titus 2:14, Jesus gave himself to redeem us from all lawlessness and to purify for himself a people of his own possession who are zealous for doing good works, so becoming zealous for doing good works in obedience to God's law is again the way to believe in what Jesus accomplished through the cross."

How do we live the Christian way of life? If we don't know how to live the Christian way of life.............all of it is dung in Gods eyes.
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Christ set a perfect example for us to follow of how to live in obedience to the Mosaic Law, so that is how to live the Christian way of life. It is never dung to obey what God has commanded because He does not command dung, but rather His commands are holy, righteous, and good (Romans 7:12).
 
NightTwister

NightTwister

Well-known member
#33
Jul 5, 2023
2,098
790
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Colorado, USA
#33
Soyeong said:
No. Works can be done for any number of reasons other than in order to be enough to earn our salvation as the result, especially because that was never the reason why God commanded His people to do good works.
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Are they required to keep it? If so, they're required to earn it.
 
Mem

Mem

Senior Member
#34
Sep 23, 2014
7,159
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#34
Let's start with the easiest commandment...
pick any of them, and I'll show you where you've missed it, and so have sinned.
 
S

Soyeong

Active member
#35
Oct 11, 2023
847
101
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#35
NightTwister said:
Are they required to keep it? If so, they're required to earn it.
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That doesn’t follow again because there can be any number of reasons for keeping God’s law other than in order to earn our salvation. For example, the Bible says repeatedly in both the OT and the NT that if we love God, then we will keep His commandments, so we are required to be keepers of God’s commandments in order to love Him, but not in order to earn our salvation. Likewise, we can obey God’s commandments because we trust God to correctly divide between right and wrong, so we are required to be keepers of God’s commandments in order to trust God, but not in order to earn our salvation.
 
S

Soyeong

Active member
#37
Oct 11, 2023
847
101
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#37
Mem said:
Let's start with the easiest commandment...
pick any of them, and I'll show you where you've missed it, and so have sinned.
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Ok.

Deuteronomy 22:6 “If there happens to be a bird’s nest in front of you along the road, in any tree or on the ground, with young ones or eggs and the hen sitting on the young or on the eggs, you are not to take the hen with the young.

Though I have never claimed to be sinless. The fact that we can repent after we have sinned and still be saved demonstrates that we are not required to have sinless obedience to God’s law. The only reason why someone would need to have sinless obedience to God’s law would be if we are going to give ourselves to pay for the sins of the world, the rest of us can have our sins forgiven. Incidentally, you are not addressing the distinction that I made in my OP.
 
NightTwister

NightTwister

Well-known member
#39
Jul 5, 2023
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Colorado, USA
#39
Soyeong said:
That doesn’t follow again because there can be any number of reasons for keeping God’s law other than in order to earn our salvation. For example, the Bible says repeatedly in both the OT and the NT that if we love God, then we will keep His commandments, so we are required to be keepers of God’s commandments in order to love Him, but not in order to earn our salvation. Likewise, we can obey God’s commandments because we trust God to correctly divide between right and wrong, so we are required to be keepers of God’s commandments in order to trust God, but not in order to earn our salvation.
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You conveniently avoided my question, as expected.
 
SomeDisciple

SomeDisciple

Well-known member
#40
Jul 4, 2021
2,268
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#40
Soyeong said:
e opportunity to experience driving a Ferrari for an hour can also be given as a gift that requires someone to do the work to have that experience,
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Whaaaaat? You mean I have to put it in gear myself? And then like, pay attention to the road? So much for "free gift". What a ripoff!!
 
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