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M
I found this on the net which may be useful.
Answer: “And about the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, Eli, Eli,
lama sabachthani? that is to say, My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?”
(Matthew 27:46). This cry is a fulfillment of Psalm 22:1, one of many parallels
between that psalm and the specific events of the crucifixion. It has been difficult
to understand in what sense Jesus was “forsaken” by God. It is certain that God
approved His work. It is certain that He was innocent. He had done nothing to
forfeit the favor of God. As His own Son - holy, harmless, undefiled, and
obedient - God still loved Him. In none of these senses could God have forsaken Him.
However, Isaiah tells us that “he bore our griefs and carried our sorrows; that he
was wounded for our transgressions, and bruised for our iniquities; that the
chastisement of our peace was laid upon him; that by his stripes we are
healed” (Isaiah 53:4-5). He redeemed us from the curse of the law, being
made a curse for us (Galatians 3:13). He was made a sin-offering, and
He died in our place, on our account, that He might bring us near to God.
It was this, doubtless, which caused His intense sufferings. It was the
manifestation of God’s hatred of sin, in some way which He has not explained,
that Jesus experienced in that terrible hour. It was suffering endured by Him
that was due to us, and suffering by which, and by which alone, we can be
saved from eternal death.
In those awful moments, Jesus was expressing His feelings of abandonment
as God placed the sins of the world on Him – and because of that had to “turn
away” from Jesus. As Jesus was feeling that weight of sin, He was experiencing
separation from God for the only time in all of eternity. It was at this time that
2 Corinthians 5:21occurred, “God made Him who had no sin to be sin for us,
so that in Him we might become the righteousness of God.” Jesus became
sin for us, so He felt the loneliness and abandonment that sin always produces,
except that in His case, it was not His sin – it was ours.
Answer: “And about the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, Eli, Eli,
lama sabachthani? that is to say, My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?”
(Matthew 27:46). This cry is a fulfillment of Psalm 22:1, one of many parallels
between that psalm and the specific events of the crucifixion. It has been difficult
to understand in what sense Jesus was “forsaken” by God. It is certain that God
approved His work. It is certain that He was innocent. He had done nothing to
forfeit the favor of God. As His own Son - holy, harmless, undefiled, and
obedient - God still loved Him. In none of these senses could God have forsaken Him.
However, Isaiah tells us that “he bore our griefs and carried our sorrows; that he
was wounded for our transgressions, and bruised for our iniquities; that the
chastisement of our peace was laid upon him; that by his stripes we are
healed” (Isaiah 53:4-5). He redeemed us from the curse of the law, being
made a curse for us (Galatians 3:13). He was made a sin-offering, and
He died in our place, on our account, that He might bring us near to God.
It was this, doubtless, which caused His intense sufferings. It was the
manifestation of God’s hatred of sin, in some way which He has not explained,
that Jesus experienced in that terrible hour. It was suffering endured by Him
that was due to us, and suffering by which, and by which alone, we can be
saved from eternal death.
In those awful moments, Jesus was expressing His feelings of abandonment
as God placed the sins of the world on Him – and because of that had to “turn
away” from Jesus. As Jesus was feeling that weight of sin, He was experiencing
separation from God for the only time in all of eternity. It was at this time that
2 Corinthians 5:21occurred, “God made Him who had no sin to be sin for us,
so that in Him we might become the righteousness of God.” Jesus became
sin for us, so He felt the loneliness and abandonment that sin always produces,
except that in His case, it was not His sin – it was ours.
E
I can not agree, If this is true...
Then your still dead in your sin.
Physical death is not the penalty of sin, it is a result (consequence) of sin. If Jesus did not die spiritually. we have no hope. the payment is not made.
And Oh by the way. Jesus said "it is finished" or literally
aid in full" Which means the payment of sin was already complete before he died physically
E
Isaiah 53:7
He was oppressed and He was afflicted, Yet He opened not His mouth; He was led as a lamb to the slaughter, And as a sheep before its shearers is silent, So He opened not His mouth.
Acts 8:32
The place in the Scripture which he read was this: “He was led as a sheep to the slaughter; And as a lamb before its shearer is silent, So He opened not His mouth.
Jesus did not defend himself. Try to fight, and he did not cry out when he was beat.. He was silent.
Until the 9th hour. when he literally in the greek screamed out in pain. My God My God why have you forsaken me..
Redemption means someone else pays the price you ow.
I Owe God my spiritual life (I have died because of sin, in fact I was born dead being in adam) To pay redemption. Jesus had to pay that debt in my place..
or as Scripture says,, In Adam all die, In Christ shall all be made alive. Because jesus suffered that death..
He was oppressed and He was afflicted, Yet He opened not His mouth; He was led as a lamb to the slaughter, And as a sheep before its shearers is silent, So He opened not His mouth.
Acts 8:32
The place in the Scripture which he read was this: “He was led as a sheep to the slaughter; And as a lamb before its shearer is silent, So He opened not His mouth.
Jesus did not defend himself. Try to fight, and he did not cry out when he was beat.. He was silent.
Until the 9th hour. when he literally in the greek screamed out in pain. My God My God why have you forsaken me..
Redemption means someone else pays the price you ow.
I Owe God my spiritual life (I have died because of sin, in fact I was born dead being in adam) To pay redemption. Jesus had to pay that debt in my place..
or as Scripture says,, In Adam all die, In Christ shall all be made alive. Because jesus suffered that death..
I can not agree, If this is true...
Then your still dead in your sin.
Physical death is not the penalty of sin, it is a result (consequence) of sin. If Jesus did not die spiritually. we have no hope. the payment is not made.
And Oh by the way. Jesus said "it is finished" or literally
aid in full" Which means the payment of sin was already complete before he died physically
Where are you getting this thought that there must be a spiritual death in order for us to be redeemed?
E
Jesus said it is finished (literally paid in full) Before he died physically.
so I do not understand how payment could be physical death if payment was made complete BEFORE he gave up the ghost.
so when was the payment of sin accomplished.. Remembering that the sacrifice of bulls and goats were just a symbol. How do you symbolize an animal being dead due to sin, but yet alive physically?
also remember, Jesus allowed himself to die. Man did not kill him, he had the power to come off the cross right then and there, But he died, so he could be the firstfruits..
I am confused. Jesus died on the cross. Was death significant? Why is it significant?
When I think, Jesus is taking all our sin as expressed by the crowd, the pharisees, and saying "I forgive you."
Now for me it is the statement that matters, forgiving us for destroying God, killing him through sin, and forgiving us.
I see no spiritual death only a physical death. Spiritual death is a lack of communion because of sin. Jesus is saying in "My God, my God etc" refering to the suffering at the hands of sinful man, while not being protected from it.
In seeing this we are forgiven and healed, the worst we could do in our innocence, our sin killed God to us. But he loved us so much, he forgave us, and showed us by going to the cross, and taking all the evil and penalty and forgiving us. It had to be God, it had to be real, to show how deep His forgiveness is and how real it is.
Any other theories is just adding to what took place. Even the reasons why Jesus had to go, what the reality is, how it works is our revelation and understanding. Saying if Jesus did not die spiritually we are dead in our sins is just a projection.
The number one issue in my life is knowing God loves me, and knowing that is 100% reliable. Is there something bigger or deeper than we need to know?
When I think, Jesus is taking all our sin as expressed by the crowd, the pharisees, and saying "I forgive you."
Now for me it is the statement that matters, forgiving us for destroying God, killing him through sin, and forgiving us.
I see no spiritual death only a physical death. Spiritual death is a lack of communion because of sin. Jesus is saying in "My God, my God etc" refering to the suffering at the hands of sinful man, while not being protected from it.
In seeing this we are forgiven and healed, the worst we could do in our innocence, our sin killed God to us. But he loved us so much, he forgave us, and showed us by going to the cross, and taking all the evil and penalty and forgiving us. It had to be God, it had to be real, to show how deep His forgiveness is and how real it is.
Any other theories is just adding to what took place. Even the reasons why Jesus had to go, what the reality is, how it works is our revelation and understanding. Saying if Jesus did not die spiritually we are dead in our sins is just a projection.
The number one issue in my life is knowing God loves me, and knowing that is 100% reliable. Is there something bigger or deeper than we need to know?
P
Jesus laid his life down, no man, no loss of blood, no trauma, took his life.
That's very important to establish and be dogmatic about. He has the power over life and death.
Traditional teaching has kept the bible stagment or a long time. I started this thread in hopes of finding different viewpoints, and to show never take scriptures at face value nor trust your memory in what you heard.
Even a small scripture such as this can have very deep meaning.
I do agree with grandpa on a physical death... and that no separation had happened... now back to the why.....why was this question asked by Jesus.
Thanks to all that shared so far....thankyou
That's very important to establish and be dogmatic about. He has the power over life and death.
Traditional teaching has kept the bible stagment or a long time. I started this thread in hopes of finding different viewpoints, and to show never take scriptures at face value nor trust your memory in what you heard.
Even a small scripture such as this can have very deep meaning.
I do agree with grandpa on a physical death... and that no separation had happened... now back to the why.....why was this question asked by Jesus.
Thanks to all that shared so far....thankyou
B
I can not agree, If this is true...
Then your still dead in your sin.
Physical death is not the penalty of sin, it is a result (consequence) of sin. If Jesus did not die spiritually. we have no hope. the payment is not made.
And Oh by the way. Jesus said "it is finished" or literally
aid in full" Which means the payment of sin was already complete before he died physically
Heres just a few death on a tree, physical sense there given he took not upon himself the nature angels (which die not) but the seed of Abraham (flesh and blood) to taste death by the grace of God for every man.
Pauls says,
Galatians 3:13 Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree:
Duet 21:22 And if a man have committed a sin worthy of death, and he be to be put to death, and thou hang him on a tree:
Duet 21:23 His body shall not remain all night upon the tree, but thou shalt in any wise bury him that day; (for he that is hanged is accursed of God ) that thy land be not defiled, which the LORD thy God giveth thee for an inheritance.
Bearing our sins was in his own body on the tree
1 Peter 2:24 Who his own self bare our sins in his own body on the tree, that we, being dead to sins, should live unto righteousness: by whose stripes ye were healed.
2 Corinthians 5:21 For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.
Who had to be made lower then the angels (in order to taste death) for every man
Heb 2:9 But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man.
Acts 2:23 Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain:
Acts 2:24 Whom God hath raised up, having loosed the pains of death: because it was not possible that he should be holden of it.
Acts 2:29 Men and brethren, let me freely speak unto you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his sepulchre is with us unto this day.
Acts 2:30 Therefore being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him, that of the fruit of his loins, according to the flesh, he would raise up Christ to sit on his throne;
Acts 2:31 He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption.
Acts 2:32 This Jesus hath God raised up, whereof we all are witnesses.
Acts 2:36 Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made that same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ.
Heb 2:14 Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil;
Heb 2:15 And deliver them who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage.
Heb 2:16 For verily he took not on him the nature of angels; but he took on him the seed of Abraham.
Pauls says,
Galatians 3:13 Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree:
Duet 21:22 And if a man have committed a sin worthy of death, and he be to be put to death, and thou hang him on a tree:
Duet 21:23 His body shall not remain all night upon the tree, but thou shalt in any wise bury him that day; (for he that is hanged is accursed of God ) that thy land be not defiled, which the LORD thy God giveth thee for an inheritance.
Bearing our sins was in his own body on the tree
1 Peter 2:24 Who his own self bare our sins in his own body on the tree, that we, being dead to sins, should live unto righteousness: by whose stripes ye were healed.
2 Corinthians 5:21 For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.
Who had to be made lower then the angels (in order to taste death) for every man
Heb 2:9 But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man.
Acts 2:23 Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain:
Acts 2:24 Whom God hath raised up, having loosed the pains of death: because it was not possible that he should be holden of it.
Acts 2:29 Men and brethren, let me freely speak unto you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his sepulchre is with us unto this day.
Acts 2:30 Therefore being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him, that of the fruit of his loins, according to the flesh, he would raise up Christ to sit on his throne;
Acts 2:31 He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption.
Acts 2:32 This Jesus hath God raised up, whereof we all are witnesses.
Acts 2:36 Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made that same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ.
Heb 2:14 Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil;
Heb 2:15 And deliver them who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage.
Heb 2:16 For verily he took not on him the nature of angels; but he took on him the seed of Abraham.
If its physical death its death of the body, and the body without the spirit is dead, but as in the case of someone living in pleasure, they are dead even while they live, and since they are living physically the nature of the kind of death there is spiritual, but because the body is alive it has its own spirit its just dead to God.
There is carnal (or physical) death
(The kind of death that requires someone to cremate you or being buried six feet under)
As the body "without the spirit" is dead James 2:26
But there is also being dead (while one liveth) 1 Ti 5:6
That kind of dead (spiritually so not carnally so)
This kind of dead (spiritually) can bury the other kind of dead (physically) like in Mat 8:21-22
The first has a body and their own spirit (while walking around dead) the other has a body (and no spirit) so their body is dead, and the first is like a walking dead able to bury the other (which cannot walk around).
Both are dead, its the nature of the dead
I know you didnt ask, that was for others
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