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Wrongo! I'm trusting God at HIS word! I believe everything God wants us to know about him -- all the most important stuff he wants us to know -- is in the Bible. It is a manifesto of everything that is important to God about himself. And, guess what. What isn't in there? Man choosing. Man weighing the pros and cons of following God in order to follow God. IF it was important as something we need to know about God, it would be in there.
What is in there is a long lineage of foolish, arrogant, silly, weak, conniving (Jacob -- one of the most connivingest people to ever be born) people whom GOD chose to use anyway to show forth HIS glory.
Must be important to God that we know that for the multitude of times he showed us just that!
Noah, just some dude living his life when God tells him to make a boat.
Abraham, just some dude living his life when God tells him he will make from him God's nation. And Abraham, smart enough to know he's too old to start producing a nation. And Abraham, the God promised a nation without ever giving him that nation. He showed him the Promise Land, but that wasn't going to happen for another 430 years. Yet, Abraham followed.
Mose. A reject from his people AND a reject from his adopted people.
Joshua. Some scrawny 40 year old who never learned how to hold a weapon, suddenly becomes the champion in the wilderness.
Gideon. The guy hiding from war.
Jonah. Not even-not ever, evening and evering!
Ruth. All she wanted to do was follow her MIL.
David. He who runs away from Saul for years and year, only to end up running away from his own son too!
That is the short list. That is the Fathers of our beliefs. Not a single robot in them, and yet surely did not choose the path God put them on.
THAT is what God will have us learn about him. Not our choice. HIS choice.
Our choice was always hiding in the darkness. We are Gideon!
What is in there is a long lineage of foolish, arrogant, silly, weak, conniving (Jacob -- one of the most connivingest people to ever be born) people whom GOD chose to use anyway to show forth HIS glory.
Must be important to God that we know that for the multitude of times he showed us just that!
Noah, just some dude living his life when God tells him to make a boat.
Abraham, just some dude living his life when God tells him he will make from him God's nation. And Abraham, smart enough to know he's too old to start producing a nation. And Abraham, the God promised a nation without ever giving him that nation. He showed him the Promise Land, but that wasn't going to happen for another 430 years. Yet, Abraham followed.
Mose. A reject from his people AND a reject from his adopted people.
Joshua. Some scrawny 40 year old who never learned how to hold a weapon, suddenly becomes the champion in the wilderness.
Gideon. The guy hiding from war.
Jonah. Not even-not ever, evening and evering!
Ruth. All she wanted to do was follow her MIL.
David. He who runs away from Saul for years and year, only to end up running away from his own son too!
That is the short list. That is the Fathers of our beliefs. Not a single robot in them, and yet surely did not choose the path God put them on.
THAT is what God will have us learn about him. Not our choice. HIS choice.
Our choice was always hiding in the darkness. We are Gideon!
E
Non of this proves your point. If I am in a dark room and someone turns the light, and I loved the dark would I not go find the dark, Because I hate the light?
The bible says we are to be lights to draw people to the light. Not turn th elight on, Your example makes no sense. I still have to make a choice. When I see the light, I can chose to walk towards it as I am drawm or I can chose to walk away from it because I love darkness more then the light (the light exposes my sin, and I LOVE MY SIN)
Sorry depleted. You should be smarter than this.
hey, bro, i don't want to argue with you as i know you get quite exercised about this subject. lol
but i think you have a responsibility to do justice to the text. your first two examples don't speak to people choosing to be saved, and the third goes like this:
All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will certainly not cast out. For I have come down from heaven, not to do My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me. This is the will of Him who sent Me, that of all that He has given Me I lose nothing, but raise it up on the last day. (Jn 6:37-39)
just a few verses later, the Lord Jesus says:
No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day.(Jn 6:44)
He doesn't say "no one will" come, He says "no one can" come. it speaks to our inability to come to Him unless the Father does a work in us first.
salvation belongs to the Lord.
but i think you have a responsibility to do justice to the text. your first two examples don't speak to people choosing to be saved, and the third goes like this:
All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will certainly not cast out. For I have come down from heaven, not to do My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me. This is the will of Him who sent Me, that of all that He has given Me I lose nothing, but raise it up on the last day. (Jn 6:37-39)
just a few verses later, the Lord Jesus says:
No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day.(Jn 6:44)
He doesn't say "no one will" come, He says "no one can" come. it speaks to our inability to come to Him unless the Father does a work in us first.
salvation belongs to the Lord.
This is just a ridiculous reply! Where did I say I woke up one day and I was "elect." I just learned that word a few years ago, and thought back to the fact that it fit with what happened to me.
My testimony is clear. When I said a sinner's prayer I was not saved. Several years later, when my husband explained the gospel, talked about repentance, GOD SPOKE TO ME! I did nothing. I certainly did not just decide to be elect, which is the way you put it.
God did save me totally by his grace. But, the only thing I had to do was repent and obey. I had no choice. I can't imagine hearing that voice, which I can hear in my head like it was recorded 37 1/2 years ago, saying "I am the Saviour of the world and you will follow me. And never drink again. And read the Bible." And all the other things God told me in a matter of what seemed like seconds. It was NOT POSSIBLE to disobey that voice. And, another sign of this, was I never had another drink. 37 1/2 years!
When God calls, you must follow. Oh yes, and I had been to Baptist Sunday school as a child and memorized Bible verses, God saved me during a revival, in which many people witnessed to me, although none mentioned I needed to repent of my sins, except my future husband.
Lynn said she woke up saved, I believe it. I was sitting in the front seat of a Chev Blazer when my husband sat me down and gave me his "talk." Then God spoke to me. Why is that so hard to believe?
No decisional regeneration for me! And stop challenging my salvation! God did what he did, and one day you will find out that is exactly what happened! Or not, in case you are not with me with Jesus! (Not saying you won't, I just don't remember ever seeing you post your testimony, which is a bit suspicious!)
My testimony is clear. When I said a sinner's prayer I was not saved. Several years later, when my husband explained the gospel, talked about repentance, GOD SPOKE TO ME! I did nothing. I certainly did not just decide to be elect, which is the way you put it.
God did save me totally by his grace. But, the only thing I had to do was repent and obey. I had no choice. I can't imagine hearing that voice, which I can hear in my head like it was recorded 37 1/2 years ago, saying "I am the Saviour of the world and you will follow me. And never drink again. And read the Bible." And all the other things God told me in a matter of what seemed like seconds. It was NOT POSSIBLE to disobey that voice. And, another sign of this, was I never had another drink. 37 1/2 years!
When God calls, you must follow. Oh yes, and I had been to Baptist Sunday school as a child and memorized Bible verses, God saved me during a revival, in which many people witnessed to me, although none mentioned I needed to repent of my sins, except my future husband.
Lynn said she woke up saved, I believe it. I was sitting in the front seat of a Chev Blazer when my husband sat me down and gave me his "talk." Then God spoke to me. Why is that so hard to believe?
No decisional regeneration for me! And stop challenging my salvation! God did what he did, and one day you will find out that is exactly what happened! Or not, in case you are not with me with Jesus! (Not saying you won't, I just don't remember ever seeing you post your testimony, which is a bit suspicious!)
hey, bro, i don't want to argue with you as i know you get quite exercised about this subject. lol
but i think you have a responsibility to do justice to the text. your first two examples don't speak to people choosing to be saved, and the third goes like this:
All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will certainly not cast out. For I have come down from heaven, not to do My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me. This is the will of Him who sent Me, that of all that He has given Me I lose nothing, but raise it up on the last day. (Jn 6:37-39)
just a few verses later, the Lord Jesus says:
No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day.(Jn 6:44)
He doesn't say "no one will" come, He says "no one can" come. it speaks to our inability to come to Him unless the Father does a work in us first.
salvation belongs to the Lord.
but i think you have a responsibility to do justice to the text. your first two examples don't speak to people choosing to be saved, and the third goes like this:
All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will certainly not cast out. For I have come down from heaven, not to do My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me. This is the will of Him who sent Me, that of all that He has given Me I lose nothing, but raise it up on the last day. (Jn 6:37-39)
just a few verses later, the Lord Jesus says:
No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day.(Jn 6:44)
He doesn't say "no one will" come, He says "no one can" come. it speaks to our inability to come to Him unless the Father does a work in us first.
salvation belongs to the Lord.
That word "ordained" means appointed, designated, or given a specific status. So God, having foreseen the ones who would believe, designated or appointed them to receive eternal life. God knows the end from the beginning but He does not pre-determine who will be saved and who will be lost. That is determined by how sinners respond to the Gospel (Mark 16:15,16 and a host of other passages).
A couple of things seem very clear to me from scripture.
He chooses, He determines, He appoints, He creates. He is outside of time, having created it. He is never 'surprised' or in any way ever ignorant of anything, ever. Salvation has nothing to do with me and everything to do with His will for me.
It is also clear that He made me with a limited-scope freedom of will and that He is just to hold me to account for my actions, nonaction, thoughts and feelings and lack of any of them. Even while ultimately He who created me is the origin.
It is also clear that though all things are by Him, for Him and through Him, He is in no way whatsoever the author of sin or evil or confusion.
How do these things coexist?
9me more thing is clear - they exist in such a way simultaneously so that it is impossible for me to boast of anything but His mercy towards me, and such that the only response is thanksgiving
He chooses, He determines, He appoints, He creates. He is outside of time, having created it. He is never 'surprised' or in any way ever ignorant of anything, ever. Salvation has nothing to do with me and everything to do with His will for me.
It is also clear that He made me with a limited-scope freedom of will and that He is just to hold me to account for my actions, nonaction, thoughts and feelings and lack of any of them. Even while ultimately He who created me is the origin.
It is also clear that though all things are by Him, for Him and through Him, He is in no way whatsoever the author of sin or evil or confusion.
How do these things coexist?
9me more thing is clear - they exist in such a way simultaneously so that it is impossible for me to boast of anything but His mercy towards me, and such that the only response is thanksgiving