Calvinists,Im Asking...

[Depleted]

Trust me, you have been marked.

Trust me, you don't know that!

If bad theology marks us, we're all doomed! God is able to bypass our stupid ideas, and trust me, we all have them too.

If you don't believe me try a thread on "What is heaven like?" Guaranteed 20,000 different answers if 20,000 people answer it. And, I'm pretty sure we have 20,000 wrong answers. lol

 

[ForthAngel]

Trust me, you don't know that!

If bad theology marks us, we're all doomed! God is able to bypass our stupid ideas, and trust me, we all have them too.

If you don't believe me try a thread on "What is heaven like?" Guaranteed 20,000 different answers if 20,000 people answer it. And, I'm pretty sure we have 20,000 wrong answers. lol

Point was that he is the one causing division

He jumped in the thread admittedly not having read the previous posts trying to make his point and telling everyone what he thinks we believe. Mark those who cause division was his point, and so I did.

 

[ForthAngel]

Trust me, you don't know that!

If bad theology marks us, we're all doomed! God is able to bypass our stupid ideas, and trust me, we all have them too.

If you don't believe me try a thread on "What is heaven like?" Guaranteed 20,000 different answers if 20,000 people answer it. And, I'm pretty sure we have 20,000 wrong answers. lol

Also, his and many others like him go beyond bad doctrine to the point of compromising the gospel and even preaching well known false gospels such as the prosperity gospel. So you can keep trying to defend everyone on both sides, but I will stand with what I have said and not retract it.

 

[Depleted]

Yes, baptism sums up what Baptists are about! LOL

Canadian Southern Baptists have their office near Calgary Alberta. Sort of central to the west. They do not have much of a presence in Ontario or the Maritimes (as for Quebec, Christians don't have much of a presence there, at all, including the RCC!).

I have also been in the North American Baptist convention for a while, and I am now in the Baptists of Western Canada. Which is kind of a moving to more unfundamentalist doctrines. Although, our church does believe the bible. Except not sure about the pastor anymore. In fact, very, very concerned, but not feeling God is wanting me to act on it, at this time. Our brand new pastor! Sigh!

Hmm! I was so sure it was you that told me about that book. I wonder who it was? Anyone who remembers, feel free to pm me if you don't want to post publicly. Maybe it was Notmyown?

I have about 15 books by Piper. One of his books, Desiring God was a textbook for our Worship class. So, I have read and benefited a lot by what he has written, although I don't agree with his position on women in ministry. But then, most Reformed people won't agree with my position on that!

I'm confused, I confess with what you mean about Winnipeg being southeast. It is the most easterly part of the prairies, and no farther south than I am in BC. Ontario is further south, and New Brunswick, PEI, Nova Scotia and NL are the farthest east, (NL being the most east!) and they are also south. I'm a western separatist, though, I have been since Pierre Trudeau did some nasty things to the west in the 1970's and 1980s. And now his son? Double the separatist!

Sorry 'bout that. I have traveled to Canada in two different routes. (I always went to a dinky village in the 10,000 Lakes region on Ontario, so any place else I've ever been in Canada was directly related to going there, or... going to Ottawa once, because Ontario was having a beer strike, and Dad needed his beer. lol) I've gone through starting at the Thousand Island Bridge or starting at Winnipeg. I always thought Winnipeg was about as south as you can go in Canada. I thought that was like the Florida Keys, as south as we can go before running out of the US.

 

[Depleted]

I think it's cause in my head that word has the medical meaning. It takes a while to add a new meaning to a word you have already defined a different way.

Medical definition is regrowing a PHYSICAL limb or organ...not being born again.

God did one better. He didn't regrow a part. He brought back our dead spirit. He mouth-to-mouth resuscitated something dead so long it would make the Mummy look like it was alive just last year. Nothing was left of the spirit he breathed into Adam and Eve. It shriveled and died at the Fall. They gave birth to the human race without ever passing on that spirit. And yet, throughout history God regenerated his spirit into those he chose.

Even bigger than giving back the purpose for an appendix. We are new creatures in him. A different life form.

 

[notuptome]

Not all people are drawn by the Father. If they were, all would be saved. I've already gone over John 6 several times on this thread, so I'm not doing it again, but you should honestly read it and not impose your presuppositions onto the text. John 10 is another you should read and honestly and try to understand. It's about the Shepherd and his sheep. In fact, I'd like to see your own exegesis of John 6:36-47 and John 10. These are soterological passages and say nothing in regards to man's will, but that of God's will. You keep posting a lot of single verses ripped of their context and I don't have the time or patience any more to refute people from scripture, plus people are reporting us for doing so. So, if you wanna be honest with scripture and not make Jesus out to be a liar, I suggest you read the passages I mentioned and read them honestly.

I would suggest that if you are going to tell readers to be honest about the scriptures then you must abide by the same standard. John 12 tell us that Jesus said if He were lifted up He would draw all unto Him.

Jesus came to the elect who was Israel and they rejected Him. Religious people are among the hardest to convert from disbelief to belief in Christ. Belief in oneself is a great obstacle in preventing many from coming to Christ.

John 6 cannot contradict John 16.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[ForthAngel]

I would suggest that if you are going to tell readers to be honest about the scriptures then you must abide by the same standard. John 12 tell us that Jesus said if He were lifted up He would draw all unto Him.

Jesus came to the elect who was Israel and they rejected Him. Religious people are among the hardest to convert from disbelief to belief in Christ. Belief in oneself is a great obstacle in preventing many from coming to Christ.

John 6 cannot contradict John 16.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

Jesus defines who the all are. The all are those the Father has given him. To say otherwise is to make Jesus a liar.

 

[Ariel82]

No one makes Jesus a liar, no matter how both sides love to throw that into each other faces.

Can't y'all find something else to use to insult one another with?

God is True and Just and anyone else who says different is lying to themselves.

How man understand God changes.

God Himself does NOT change.

If you believe in the doctrine of election,shouldn't folks tame their tongue and speak with more respect for those who might be God's beloved children?

Who are you REALLY representing and defending, God or yourself?

I thought the purpose was to fellowship,learn and grow with one another as the Holy Spirit leads us to speak?

Maybe I am just naive and delusional in that also.

 

[ForthAngel]

No one makes Jesus a liar, no matter how both sides love to throw that into each other faces.

Can't y'all find something else to use to insult one another with?

Saying Jesus said something he did not makes him out to be a liar. If all men are drawn, by Jesus' OWN words, they must all be given eternal life. Jesus himself defines who the "all" are, that being all that the Father has given him. It's really not that difficult.

 

[kaylagrl]

Sorry 'bout that. I have traveled to Canada in two different routes. (I always went to a dinky village in the 10,000 Lakes region on Ontario, so any place else I've ever been in Canada was directly related to going there, or... going to Ottawa once, because Ontario was having a beer strike, and Dad needed his beer. lol) I've gone through starting at the Thousand Island Bridge or starting at Winnipeg. I always thought Winnipeg was about as south as you can go in Canada. I thought that was like the Florida Keys, as south as we can go before running out of the US.

I love the Thousand Islands area. Especially Bolt Castle on the Yankee side. I sang on the ferry that tours that area. Was pretty cool.

 

[notuptome]

Jesus defines who the all are. The all are those the Father has given him. To say otherwise is to make Jesus a liar.

In context the all to which you refer is the apostles. Even one of those was lost the son of perdition.

Accusing others of making Jesus a liar is unwise. When we are confronted with such contradictions in the scripture it is our understanding that needs correction not the scriptures for they are without error.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[ForthAngel]

In context the all to which you refer is the apostles. Even one of those was lost the son of perdition.

Accusing others of making Jesus a liar is unwise. When we are confronted with such contradictions in the scripture it is our understanding that needs correction not the scriptures for they are without error.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

He isn't addressing just the Apostles in John 6. He is addressing a huge crowd of people. You are adding what isn't there. The passage is soteriological.

 

[Ariel82]

Saying Jesus said something he did not makes him out to be a liar. If all men are drawn, by Jesus' OWN words, they must all be given eternal life. Jesus himself defines who the "all" are, that being all that the Father has given him. It's really not that difficult.

I don't see how you determine if it means all men, then men have to be saved.

.I understand you believe the all only means the elect, those God chose to give Jesus.

However I don't see how you jump from "all men being drawn" to "all men being saved"

Probably has to do with your belief in Irresistible Grace?

Many men were drawn to Jesus preaching but not all were saved.

PS I only saw one time you lost your temper, so don't k,ow why you would be reported beyond that instance. Personally I don't report anyone I am having a disgreement with. I only report those stalking folks through lots of threads.

 

[ForthAngel]

I don't see how you determine if it means all men, then men have to be saved.

.I understand you believe the all only means the elect, those God chose to give Jesus.

However I don't see how you jump from "all men being drawn" to "all men being saved"

Many men were drawn to Jesus preaching but not all were saved.

PS I only saw one time you lost your temper, so don't k,ow why you would be reported beyond that instance. Personally I don't report anyone I am having a disgreement with. I only report those stalking folks through lots of threads.

Jesus defines, very clearly, in John 6 who the all are. It is all that the Father gives to him. To make it all people on the planet then and into the future would force Jesus to save all that the Father draws, and since everyone thinks God draws ALL men, then Jesus is obligated, by his OWN words, to save them all, because he says he WILL save them if they are drawn by the Father.

 

[notuptome]

He isn't addressing just the Apostles in John 6. He is addressing a huge crowd of people. You are adding what isn't there. The passage is soteriological.

John 6:40 is the key but it says that they who see must believe to be saved. I agree that it is considered soteriological but the Father giving to Jesus all who believe is not supporting your interpretation and application. It cannot contradict John 16. The Holy Spirit convicts all men of sin, righteousness and judgment. Some turn to Christ and some turn to themselves.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[ForthAngel]

John 6:40 is the key but it says that they who see must believe to be saved. I agree that it is considered soteriological but the Father giving to Jesus all who believe is not supporting your interpretation and application. It cannot contradict John 16. The Holy Spirit convicts all men of sin, righteousness and judgment. Some turn to Christ and some turn to themselves.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

It doesn't contradict John 16 since Jesus already defined who the all are. Also in John 10. Sometimes I wish chapter divisions weren't in the bible. They just cause confusion like this. Just because all are convicted, it doesn't mean the Father has drawn them to Christ, because if the Father has drawn them to Christ, they will without a doubt be saved according to Jesus' own words.

 

[preacher4truth]

Jesus defines, very clearly, in John 6 who the all are. It is all that the Father gives to him. To make it all people on the planet then and into the future would force Jesus to save all that the Father draws, and since everyone thinks God draws ALL men, then Jesus is obligated, by his OWN words, to save them all, because he says he WILL save them if they are drawn by the Father.

...which is why when people here misuse that verse (and usually put "all" in CAPS) I tell them they are Universalists, or ask them if they are. They get so blinded by the word ALL they can't see the rest of the verse or its implications.

 

[Ariel82]

I would suggest that if you are going to tell readers to be honest about the scriptures then you must abide by the same standard. John 12 tell us that Jesus said if He were lifted up He would draw all unto Him.

Jesus came to the elect who was Israel and they rejected Him. Religious people are among the hardest to convert from disbelief to belief in Christ. Belief in oneself is a great obstacle in preventing many from coming to Christ.

John 6 cannot contradict John 16.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

Wait is it by the will of God or the will of man you believe people are saved?

I read your post and the one you responded to and I am confused.

He talks about people being saved by God's grace and will.....and you talk about Jesus dying for the whole world?

How does that work out?

 

[Depleted]

God gave all men souls. The belief of free will is that God have men the grace to accept or reject the calling of God into righteousness. This is NOT referred to as being born again.
***
I think I explained before the held belief of Methodist church is three different types of grace: Prevenient , justifying and sanctifying grace.all grace is believed to be a gift from God and not "earned" by any merit within the person.

Prevenient grace can be rejected.

Justifying grace is saving grace and sanctifying grace is walking with the Holy spirit.

I have always been taught the order of Salvation is

1. God gives the world Prevenient grace to be able to choose between good and evil. They are given the Law. Carnal men reject God and His law. Others respond to this grace and try and keep the Law but are unable to because they don't have justifying grace of what Jesus did upon the cross.

2. They both hear the gospel. The carnal man rejects it. The man under the Law either embraces it or rejects it to continue trying to earn his SALVATION.

3. If he embraces it. That is the moment of conversion and justification. That is when folks are born again and have the Holy Spirit within them and are empowered to overcome sin. When they trust in Christ alone for salvation.

4. God gives His born again children watching grace to continue walking in His ways.

****

It just seems odd that someone would be born again before having faith.

I see God's hand working in the lives of all men, but he only gives justifying faith to those He has brought to the point of repentance and knowledge of their need for a savior.

I guess the question for me would be, could God start the regeneration process as defined by reformed folks, but decide NOT to finish it? Could they NEVER confess Jesus as Lord and Savior?

Which do you prefer -- foil or cane?

That question really does make sense to me as someone who did stained-glass, but it doesn't mean much to those who have not.

In like kind, we Reformers understand grace differently than you.

Common grace? I think we all get that. That's the grace that makes it rain on the just and unjust.

You've got Prevenient grace. We don't believe in that one. We just don't.

Irresistible grace. I don't know if you get what we mean any better now then when this started.

Saving grace and justifying grace? Nada. Nothing. Don't have any idea what either of those mean to you. Best I can go with is God's special unmerited favor to his kids only. "Uncommon grace?" Is that the same thing as either of those to you? God saves. God justifies. Whether that is grace or not simply isn't in my vocabulary to answer.

I probably still didn't answer your question, but by now I hope you see where the problem is that we can't. Kind of like cane or foil? You have to be in the culture to understand the question.

 

[Depleted]

I love hearing testimonies.

However I believe some things can't truly be told to another...folks kind have to live through it.

Beings born again I believe is one of those things each person has to experience personally to make sense of the spiritual teachings in the Bible.

.I just get sick and tired of all the fighting.

If you really don't think the person is a child of God, why bother talking to them?

I have decided to put all folks who want to act like immature brats on ignore. (yeah I know I will offend somebody by stating that, but if they think I am a brat, I would prefer if they put me on ignore also.)

Makes this thread easier & more peaceful to read,

Just checking. What's your opinion of someone who can do both -- be an immature brat, and then not be one?