What did the Jew receive first?

[Elin]

Post #19

Good post. It was never something that was unknown, but revealed by God at the appropriate time in history.

Kind of a contradiction, isn't it.

If it was never unknown, then it was known and there was no need to reveal it.

Likewise, all things have always been known by God, so nothing is unknown to God.

A mystery in the NT is unknown to man, until God reveals it.
It is not something incomprehensible understood only by the initiated,
it is simply something that was not known before.

 

[chubbena]

it's not God's Law that the NT says is obsolete...
God's Law is a reflection of His own character, and will be with us always.
it's needed to lead sinners to Christ,
and to convict God's children when they sin.

however, it's the covenant established through Moses that the Scripture says is obsolete...
and that's for our good, too.
we couldn't ever live up to the terms of that covenant,
just as the children of Israel couldn't.

Some here say the law (rather than the old covenant) of God spoken through Moses is replaced by the law (rather than the new covenant) of Christ.
Some went as far as saying that the old covenant is not of love that has to be replaced.
Which terms of the "old" covenant were so hard that the children of Israel live up to? Were these terms not given by the Word of God?

 

[Elin]

Some here say
the law (rather than the old covenant) of God spoken through Moses
is replaced by the law (rather than the new covenant) of Christ.

That's pretty much what Jesus said as Lawgiver in Mt 22:37-40,
and Paul echoes in 1Co 9:20-21; Ro 13:8-10; Gal 5:6.

 

[chubbena]

That would be KJVII.

That's new to me. Does it include the law of God spoken through Moses?

Previously addressed, above.

Jn 1:14-17 is clear and speaks for itself.

Only when one takes the whole scripture into account because the Messiah was before John the Baptist and that His grace was shown long before He came in the flesh. Some just have to pull words out of context to uphold his doctrine but at least the Roman Catholics were honest enough to say they are the only authority to interpret the Bible.

 

[chubbena]

That's pretty much what Jesus said as Lawgiver in Mt 22:37-40,
and Paul echoes in 1Co 9:20-21; Ro 13:8-10; Gal 5:6.

Psychomon, this is one of those I spoke about in my earlier post whom liked your post #206 but spoke against what you said there. Or may be you agreed with this poster and that I misunderstood your post.

 

[Elin]

That's pretty much what Jesus said as Lawgiver in Mt 22:37-40,

and Paul echoes in 1Co 9:20-21; Ro 13:8-10; Gal 5:6.

Psychomon, this is one of those I spoke about in my earlier post whom
liked your post #206 but spoke against what you said there. Or may be you agreed with this poster and that I misunderstood your post.

My post above is in perfect agreement with her post #206.

 

[peacefulbeliever]

Post #19

Good post. It was never something that was unknown, but revealed by God at the appropriate time in history.

Romans 11:25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in .

Ephesians 3:3-4
3 How that by revelation he made known unto me the mystery; (as I wrote afore in few words,
4 Whereby , when ye read , ye may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ)

Ephesians 1:9-10
9 Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself:
10 That in the *dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him:

Paul explains the "dispensation of the Grace" that was revealed to the Gentiles by his preaching and epistles. “For this cause I Paul, the prisoner of Jesus Christ for you Gentiles, If ye have heard of the dispensation of the grace of God which is given me to you-ward:” (Ephesians 3:1-2)

He says by revelation, God made clear to him the "mystery" of the relationship of the Jew and Gentile in the church. He explains that in the Old Testament this truth of the coming of the institution of the local church was not revealed, but is now revealed by the apostles, and prophets by the Holy Spirit. “Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit;” (Ephesians 3:5)

What was the mystery that was now revealed?“That the Gentiles should be fellowheirs, and of the same body, and partakers of his promise in Christ by the gospel:"(Ephesians 3:6) of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile; (Romans 2:9-10)

Paul clearly says that this truth *now should be known to everyone.
8 Unto me, who am less than the least of all saints, is this grace given , that I should preach among the Gentiles the unsearchable riches of Christ;
9 And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, *which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ:
10 To the intent that now unto the principalities and powers in heavenly places might be known by the church the manifold wisdom of God,

This should have been stated from the beginning - mystery - something kept hid until revealed.

My only question would be the reasoning behind adding Romans 2:9,10 to the mix? Clearly, that section of scripture is speaking of God's judgment towards those who are "filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity; whisperers, backbiters, haters of God, despiteful, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents, without understanding, covenantbreakers, without natural affection, implacable, unmerciful Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them [1:29-32]. . . . .2:2 But we are sure that the judgment of God is according to truth against them which commit such things. . . . 2:6-10 Who will render to every man according to his deeds: To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality eternal life: But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, [judgment] Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile; [judgment] But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile.

I am just wondering how the above fits in with the subject of the "mystery" - the Gentiles being fellowheirs, and of the same body and partakers of his promise in Christ by the gospel?

 

[RedTent]

The mystery is very simply in the blood, from the beginning of time the blood has been a mystery and it has to do with eternal life. It has always had to do with Christ from the beginning. If you go to a man who has not understood that salvation and sacrifice by blood is connected, and told that man that he is saved by the blood any man from Cain to our unsaved neighbor today would say "Huh???".

Even here on CC, we have those who are arguing and fussing about it. They use all kinds of things to argue, and the idea that blood was used from the beginning and perfected in Christ is the reason they are fussing and up in arms. It has always been so, and it will always be that people object to truth. Christ told us this would happen.

 

[peacefulbeliever]

The mystery is very simply in the blood, from the beginning of time the blood has been a mystery and it has to do with eternal life. It has always had to do with Christ from the beginning. If you go to a man who has not understood that salvation and sacrifice by blood is connected, and told that man that he is saved by the blood any man from Cain to our unsaved neighbor today would say "Huh???".

Even here on CC, we have those who are arguing and fussing about it. They use all kinds of things to argue, and the idea that blood was used from the beginning and perfected in Christ is the reason they are fussing and up in arms. It has always been so, and it will always be that people object to truth. Christ told us this would happen.

The mystery is how there is no longer Jew nor Gentile but all are one in the body of Christ by way of the Holy Spirit. And yes it was accomplished through the death and resurrection of our Lord Jesus Christ.

 

[RedTent]

The mystery is how there is no longer Jew nor Gentile but all are one in the body of Christ by way of the Holy Spirit. And yes it was accomplished through the death and resurrection of our Lord Jesus Christ.

Now we have it from the absolute top authority! There is no mystery in the bible except having to do with the Jew and gentile becoming one, and we know that happened the moment Christ died on the cross. I'll remember that as I read the rest of your posts.

 

[peacefulbeliever]

Now we have it from the absolute top authority! There is no mystery in the bible except having to do with the Jew and gentile becoming one, and we know that happened the moment Christ died on the cross. I'll remember that as I read the rest of your posts.

Okay . . . .

 

[just-me]

Now that it has been established that there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek (Romans 10:12) the question still remains what did the Jews have that the Gentiles received afterwards? What was this mystery? Hint.....Did any Gentiles/Greeks write any books in the Bible? Were there any Gentiles equipped to explain the spiritual concepts of the foreshadow of things to come when they knew nothing about God's Word in the Old Testament?

Paul clearly says that this truth *now should be known to everyone.
8 Unto me, who am less than the least of all saints, is this grace given , that I should preach among the Gentiles the unsearchable riches of Christ;
9 And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, *which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ:
10 To the **intent that *now unto the principalities and powers in heavenly places might be known by the church the manifold wisdom of God,


**intent?...........intent..........intent!

 

[Elin]

Now we have it from the absolute top authority!
There is no mystery in the bible except having to do with the Jew and gentile becoming one, and we know that happened the moment Christ died on the cross. I'll remember that as I read the rest of your posts.

Actually, Eph 2:15 is not one of the "mysteries" stated by Paul.

You might want to take a look at

the mystery of the death of Christ (1Co 2:1),
the mystery of God's plan to sum up all things in Christ (Eph 1:9),
the mystery of God's plan to include both Jews and Gentiles in the NT Church (Eph 3:3-6),
the mystery of God's plan by which a remnant of both Jews and Gentiles, after a period of
disobedience by both, will by his mercy be included in his kingdom (Ro 11:25),
the mystery of the change that will take place at the resurrection (1Co 15:51)
the mystery of the incarnation (1Tim 3:16).

 

[Elin]

Now that it has been established that there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek (Romans 10:12) the question still remains
what did the Jews have that the Gentiles received afterwards? What was this mystery? Hint.....Did any Gentiles/Greeks write any books in the Bible? Were there any Gentiles equipped to explain the spiritual concepts of the foreshadow of things to come when they knew nothing about God's Word in the Old Testament?

Paul clearly says that this truth *now should be known to everyone.
8 Unto me, who am less than the least of all saints, is this grace given , that I should preach among the Gentiles the unsearchable riches of Christ;
9 And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, *which from the beginning of the world
HATH BEEN HID IN GOD, who created all things by Jesus Christ:

10 To the **intent that *now unto the principalities and powers in heavenly places
might be known BY the church the manifold wisdom of God,

**intent?...........intent..........intent!

You are some kinda' seriously confused.
And that is some kinda' serious misunderstanding of the text.

Try reading the texts just straight forward for a change,
and eschew all this convoluted nonsense you manufacture.

First of all, "by" is the Greek dia, which means "through; by means of."

Secondly, the mystery was hidden in God, not in the Jews.

Thirdly, the mystery is the manifold wisdom of God made known through the Church
to the principalities and powers.

God has done the seemingly impossible--reconciling and physically uniting Jews and Gentiles
in the Church--thereby displaying his manifold wisdom to the principalities and powers
in the heavenly realms, according to his eternal purpose which he accomplished in Christ Jesus our Lord.

None of that has anything to do with "what the Jews had that the Gentiles received afterwards."

This is like filling the Grand Canyon with a spoon.

 

[peacefulbeliever]

You are some kinda' seriously confused.
And that is some kinda' serious misunderstanding of the text.

Try reading the texts just straight forward for a change,
and eschew all this convoluted nonsense you manufacture.

First of all, "by" is the Greek dia, which means "through; by means of."

Secondly, the mystery was hidden in God, not in the Jews.

Thirdly, the mystery is the manifold wisdom of God made known through the Church
to the principalities and powers.

God has done the seemingly impossible--reconciling and physically uniting Jews and Gentiles
in the Church--thereby displaying his manifold wisdom to the principalities and powers
in the heavenly realms, according to his eternal purpose which he accomplished in Christ Jesus our Lord.

None of that has anything to do with "what the Jews had that the Gentiles received afterwards."

This is like filling the Grand Canyon with a spoon.

Which was God's purpose in having it "hid" - "But we speak the wisdom, of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom, which God ordained before the world unto our glory: Which none of the princes of this world knew: for had they known it,
they would not have crucified the Lord of glory." It is through Christ's death and resurrection that the new birth was made available whereby Jew and Gentile became ONE new man . . . Christ in you the hope of glory

 

[just-me]

Referring back to the original post.

OK, let's try this again

Romans 2:9-10
9 Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;
10 But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile:

What was this mystery? Hint.....Did any Gentiles/Greeks write any books in the Bible? Were there any Gentiles equipped to explain the spiritual concepts of the foreshadow of things to come when they knew nothing about God's Word in the Old Testament?

 

[Ariel82]

Actually, Eph 2:15 is not one of the "mysteries" stated by Paul.

You might want to take a look at

the mystery of the death of Christ (1Co 2:1),
the mystery of God's plan to sum up all things in Christ (Eph 1:9),
the mystery of God's plan to include both Jews and Gentiles in the NT Church (Eph 3:3-6),
the mystery of God's plan by which a remnant of both Jews and Gentiles, after a period of
disobedience by both, will by his mercy be included in his kingdom (Ro 11:25),
the mystery of the change that will take place at the resurrection (1Co 15:51)
the mystery of the incarnation (1Tim 3:16).

Yep those would be the mysteries reveled first to the Jews and then to the Gentiles....


I'm confused, Just-me what else would you be hinting at?

<note: i'm tryng to follow original topic and choose not to comment on the side rabbit trails being discussed. >

 

[Ariel82]

What was this mystery? Hint.....Did any Gentiles/Greeks write any books in the Bible? Were there any Gentiles equipped to explain the spiritual concepts of the foreshadow of things to come when they knew nothing about God's Word in the Old Testament?

that's not true. there were Gentile believers who studied the OT and God's words:

Cornelius: Acts 10

Even in the OT there were people who were not Israelites who heard from God and His Holy Spirit.

Paul says to the Athenians:

Acts 17

"

TO THE UNKNOWN GOD.​

Therefore, the One whom you worship without knowing, Him I proclaim to you: 24 “God, who made the world and everything in it, since He is Lord of heaven and earth, does not dwell in temples made with hands. 25 Nor is He worshiped with men’s hands, as though He needed anything, since He gives to all life, breath, and all things. 26 And He has made from one blood[c] every nation of men to dwell on all the face of the earth, and has determined their preappointed times and the boundaries of their dwellings, 27 so that they should seek the Lord, in the hope that they might grope for Him and find Him, though He is not far from each one of us; 28 for in Him we live and move and have our being, as also some of your own poets have said, ‘For we are also His offspring.’ 29 Therefore, since we are the offspring of God, we ought not to think that the Divine Nature is like gold or silver or stone, something shaped by art and man’s devising. 30 Truly, these times of ignorance God overlooked, but now commands all men everywhere to repent, 31 because He has appointed a day on which He will judge the world in righteousness by the Man whom He has ordained. He has given assurance of this to all by raising Him from the dead.”

Therefore God & His laws were known to mankind, but Jesus Christ ressurrection was first known to the Jews and then proclaimed to the rest of the world.

 

[just-me]

Yep those would be the mysteries reveled first to the Jews and then to the Gentiles....


I'm confused, Just-me what else would you be hinting at?

<note: i'm tryng to follow original topic and choose not to comment on the side rabbit trails being discussed. >

I am not hinting at anything. I totally agree that the mysteries were revealed first to the Jews and then to the Gentiles....

There is interference being run by others. This thread keeps running off the track from what should be very simple to understand. I'm saying that God used Israel as our example concerning His righteous judgment. It is ours to understand by the word of God. Gentiles are now included in this understanding through the Holy Spirit. As you read, and look closer to the previous posts, you will see that there are those that want to say Paul received a new and different enlightenment that those of the Jews.

 

[just-me]

that's not true. there were Gentile believers who studied the OT and God's words:

Cornelius: Acts 10

Even in the OT there were people who were not Israelites who heard from God and His Holy Spirit.

Paul says to the Athenians:

Acts 17

"

TO THE UNKNOWN GOD.​

Therefore, the One whom you worship without knowing, Him I proclaim to you: 24 “God, who made the world and everything in it, since He is Lord of heaven and earth, does not dwell in temples made with hands. 25 Nor is He worshiped with men’s hands, as though He needed anything, since He gives to all life, breath, and all things. 26 And He has made from one blood[c] every nation of men to dwell on all the face of the earth, and has determined their preappointed times and the boundaries of their dwellings, 27 so that they should seek the Lord, in the hope that they might grope for Him and find Him, though He is not far from each one of us; 28 for in Him we live and move and have our being, as also some of your own poets have said, ‘For we are also His offspring.’ 29 Therefore, since we are the offspring of God, we ought not to think that the Divine Nature is like gold or silver or stone, something shaped by art and man’s devising. 30 Truly, these times of ignorance God overlooked, but now commands all men everywhere to repent, 31 because He has appointed a day on which He will judge the world in righteousness by the Man whom He has ordained. He has given assurance of this to all by raising Him from the dead.”

Therefore God & His laws were known to mankind, but Jesus Christ ressurrection was first known to the Jews and then proclaimed to the rest of the world.

Paul and the poets. I don't think they knew much before Paul talked to them.

Acts 17:22-23
22 Then Paul stood in the midst of Mars' hill, and said , Ye men of Athens, I perceive that in all things ye are too superstitious.
23 For as I passed by , and beheld your devotions , I found an altar with this inscription , TO THE UNKNOWN GOD. Whom therefore ye ignorantly worship , him declare I unto you.