Good morning, all.
While casually browsing of the internet as I drink my morning coffee, I found myself here. I signed up and registered an account on this forum, specifically to put in my 2 cents on this topic (which will probably be much more than 2 cents). And I'm not too busy in the office today
.
I'm not much for internet discussions or forum chat, as I know how they tend to disintegrate into meaningless name calling and hurt feelings and anger and so forth, but I'm going to give it a go this time as it is a Christian oriented forum. This is my very first post on this forum.
***Please read the following with an open mind, without the theological baggage that everyone one of us carry with us. I truly believe this is the only way to understand the scriptures.
The question - referring to being "born again" before Pentecost or not, is a question that has a lengthy explanation. I will be as brief as possible in articulating what I believe to be true as I understand the scriptures. It will, I REPEAT, it will rub some of you the wrong way. It did as well to me when I first learned and understood and believed (with great resistance) some time ago.
Please remember thus: The Lord Jesus Christ is our Savior, and through Him we have redemption of sins through his blood sacrifice on the cross, and our belief in him is the only way in which we have the hope of salvation. I'm sure we can all agree on that previous sentence. It is my foundation, as I'm sure it is all of yours. Now, with that being said, let me finally get to the question at hand.
This question cannot be understood without correcting what is a fundamental misunderstanding of what happens to ALL people when they die. In short, they die. We do not have an immortal soul. We do not go to heaven when we die. We do not go to hell when we die. We die, and we will only have an 'afterlife' if we are resurrected. If there is no resurrection, we will decay in our graves. Consider the original decree of God to the man after he sinned in the garden.
By the sweat of your faceYou will eat bread,
Till you return to the ground,
Because from it you were taken;
For you are dust,
And to dust you shall return.”
Now, we as Christians have grown up believing that the previous decree of God means that man died "spiritually" on that day. But the scripture never states that. We have added that in. Man died physically, naturally, and the process of death began on that day (literally translated it should read "dying, thou dost die" or "unto death, you shall be dying"). It is a process, as we are taught from Gen 3: 17-19, it does not say that the man died on that very day, as some will argue. Similar parts of speech can be found in 1 Kings 2:37. God also told Abraham, literally, "in blessing I will bless you", and "in multiplying I will multiply you". It is a figure of speech that guarantees the outcome of death, or in the other examples, blessing, or multiplying.
We are not spiritual beings, the scripture never states that we are spiritual beings. Conversely, the scriptures repetitively declare that we are natural and earthy. Remember, we are a product of the dust, or the actual literal soil of the ground, and are animated by the breath of life from God, and the union of those 2 things are that we became a "living soul". (
Nephesh in Hebrew). Oh, and by the way, the animals also are called living souls before Genesis 2:7, because they too have an earthy created body from the ground and have life in them because of the breath of God. We don't have an immaterial and immortal part of us that resides inside of us called a soul. We ARE a LIVING SOUL. It is the union of the breath and the dirt of the ground. We are not spiritual until after we are resurrected. Consider 1 Cor. 15:
42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown a perishable body, it is raised an imperishable body; 43 it is sown in dishonor, it is raised in glory; it is sown in weakness, it is raised in power; 44 it is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body. If there is a natural body, there is also a spiritual body. 45 So also it is written, “The first man, Adam, became a living soul.” The last Adam became a life-giving spirit. 46 However, the spiritual is not first, but the natural; then the spiritual. 47 The first man is from the earth, earthy; the second man is from heaven. 48 As is the earthy, so also are those who are earthy; and as is the heavenly, so also are those who are heavenly. 49 Just as we have borne the image of the earthy, we will also bear the image of the heavenly.
The English word, "soul", has a certain connotation that we all have grown to understand, as being an immaterial and immortal 'divine spark' that resides in all humanity. That is a concept that is not scriptural. 'Divine Spark' is not in the bible. This is derived from Greek philosophy, which was and still is influenced on Christian theology. Before Jesus was even born, Plato and Aristotle were heavily influencing all in that region of the world the concept of "soul", that it was the "purity of God", and that it was housed in an evil "prison" of the body. Death was considered to be a great release of the prison of this shell of a body, containing a soul. Read the account of the suicide of Socrates by Plato in 'Phaedo', and compare its peaceful consummation and 'release of the soul' with the agony and pain of the death of Jesus. Such concepts are not scriptural, but are Greek philosophy that we still are effected by today.
Consider the following passages of scripture as they relate to the destiny of mankind.
Ecclesiastes 3:19-20 (NASB) 19 For the fate of the sons of men and the fate of beasts is the same. As one dies so dies the other; indeed, they all have the same breath and there is no advantage for man over beast, for all is vanity. 20 All go to the same place. All came from the dust and all return to the dust.
Psalm 146:1-4 (NASB) Praise the Lord! Praise the Lord, O my soul! 2 I will praise the Lord while I live; I will sing praises to my God while I have my being. 3 Do not trust in princes, In mortal man, in whom there is no salvation. 4 His spirit departs, he returns to the earth; In that very day his thoughts perish. (note: A Psalm of David - also see the next passage..)
Psalm 6:5 (NASB) 4 Return, O Lord, rescue my soul; Save me because of Your lovingkindness. 5 For there is no mention of You in death; In Sheol who will give You thanks?
(note: King David was grieved at the very thought of dying because he knew that in death, he would no longer be able to praise the Lord. Oh that we would have that same attitude, to have a heart that loved God so much that we would miss it if we died because we would no longer be able to praise him! Don't you thing that if King David died and went to heaven, he would be praising God? He's not, cause he's not there. See the next scriptural evidence of this.)
Acts 2:29-35 (NASB) 29 “
Brethren, I may confidently say to you regarding the patriarch David that he both died and was buried, and his tomb is with us to this day.30 And so, because he was a prophet and knew that God had sworn to him with an oath to seat one of his descendants on his throne, 31 he looked ahead and spoke of the resurrection of the Christ, that He was neither abandoned to Hades, nor did His flesh suffer decay. 32 This Jesus God raised up again, to which we are all witnesses. 33 Therefore having been exalted to the right hand of God, and having received from the Father the promise of the Holy Spirit, He has poured forth this which you both see and hear. 34
For it was not David who ascended into heaven, but he himself says: ‘The Lord said to my Lord, “Sit at My right hand, 35 Until I make Your enemies a footstool for Your feet.”’ (-Note: If King David,
prophet of the most high God, a
man after Gods own heart, the
ancestor of the King of Kings and Lord of Lords Jesus Christ, the
one on whose throne the Son of God shall sit upon and rule over the earth at the inauguration of the Kingdom of God holding the scepter of righteousness - If he isn't in heaven - what hope do
YOU have? What hope do
I have?) But our hope is the same, resurrection at the coming of Jesus Christ, but not before then.
Acts 13:36-37 (NASB) 36 For David, after he had served the purpose of God in his own generation, fell asleep, and was laid among his fathers and underwent decay; 37 but He whom God raised did not undergo decay
Psalm 104:29 (NASB) (Speaking of all of Gods creation, man and beasts in Psalm 104) “You hide Your face, they are dismayed; You take away their spirit (breath), they expire and return to their dust.”
Psalm 115:16-17 (NASB) The heavens are the heavens of the Lord, But the earth He has given to the sons of men. 17 The dead do not praise the Lord, Nor do any who go down into silence
John 3:13 (NASB) 13
No one has ascended into heaven, but He who descended from heaven: the Son of Man.
John 11:23-26, 43-44. (Easier to read all of John 11) 23 Jesus *said to her, “Your brother will rise again.” 24 Martha *said to Him, “I know that he will rise again in the resurrection
on the last day.” (notice that Martha knew her eschatology! She knew that it was only in the resurrection that Lazarus would rise from the dead!) 25 Jesus said to her, “I am the resurrection and the life; he who believes in Me will live even if he dies, 26 and everyone who lives and believes in Me will never die (
into the age, lit. - Translators left out this entire phrase). Do you believe this?” 43 When He had said these things, He cried out with a loud voice, “Lazarus, come forth.” 44 The man who had died came forth, bound hand and foot with wrappings, and his face was wrapped around with a cloth. Jesus *said to them, “Unbind him, and let him go.”
1 Tim. 6:14-16 (NASB) 14 that you keep the commandment without stain or reproach until the appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ, 15 which He will bring about at the proper time—He who is the blessed and only Sovereign, the King of kings and Lord of lords, 16
who alone possesses immortality and dwells in unapproachable light, whom no man has seen or can see. To Him be honor and eternal dominion! Amen. (whom is the only one that is immortal?)
---- man this is getting long. I apologize, but like I said at the beginning, not a quick answer. ----
I could go on and on quoting scriptures that say that when man dies, he dies - and the only hope that he has is the resurrection of the dead. There are so very many more. What does Job ask in Job 14? He asks the question, "If a man dies, will he live again?" Notice that he does NOT ask, 'If a man dies, will he continue to live?' or 'Where does a man go when he dies?'