Were Men Born Again Before Pentecost?

P1LGR1M · Oct 26, 2015

Hello Yonah and welcome to the discussion.

We recognize that the Spirit of God has always ministered to and in the hearts of men, but, in view is eternal Redemption and eternal indwelling. Christ taught the disciples that something new woiuld take place after the Comforter was sent, which would only take place if He departed. This establishes that what He would do was not taking place at that time.

Here are a few things that would be accomplished by the Comforter:

Eternal indwelling: the Lord said He is with you but shall be in you;

Glorifying of Christ: even in Christ's day the Gospel of Christ was not being preached. When Christ did give them the Gospel...the disciples sorrowed (hence "Let not your hearts be troubled");

Conviction of sins in relationship to Christ and the Gospel: prior to this Age the revelation provided to them veiled the mysteries that the Spirit revealed.

We cannot look at the ministry of the Son of God through Prophets to negate what else we are told:

https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1+Peter+1:11-12&version=KJV

We see in the following verse that the Holy Spirit sent down from Heaven, Who is the Comforter, is the One Who revealed what the Prophets ministered. They ministered, not to the!selves, but to us (those of Peter's day and following).

Peter understood that Christ the Son of God was the Source of their prophecy, but they, nor the Angels, did not.

The Spirit of God did minister through men prior to Pentecost, but we look to the teaching of Christ in John 14-16 to distinguish what was yet to come.

God bless.

Mitspa · Oct 26, 2015

Yonah said:

Good point...but in context it uses the terms of prophecy and could be understood to say that they prophesied by the Spirit of Christ...

1Pe 1:10 ¶ Of which salvation the prophets have enquired and searched diligently, who prophesied of the grace that should come unto you:
11 Searching what, or what manner of time the Spirit of Christ which was in them did signify, when it testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ, and the glory that should follow.

crossnote · Oct 27, 2015

P1LGR1M said:

Many did die physically even though they ate the manna, that does not preclude the believers (Joshua and Caleb) from having eternal life.
Also God says to Moses, (long before the cross) I am the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob...not I will be (when they revive from the dead).

Matthew 22:32 KJVS [32] I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob? God is not the God of the dead, but of the living.

Hoffco · Oct 27, 2015

The last two comments shows what is wrong with only seeing the part of the truth you want and neglecting the whole context. In Jh.6:53 Jesus is not saying one must literally eat Him to be saved. Jesus used this "gross" illustration to drive the unbelieving, non-elect away, so they would leave Him, hate Him and cry for His death; The "elect" ones the eleven disciples were given the true spiritual meaning in v.63," It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh profits nothing. The words that I speak to you are spirit,(spiritual) and they ate life." The Rom. Cath. Transsubstanciation is wrong. We do NOT eat the literal body and blood of Jesus .That is a "gross" mistake, of the apostate church of Rome.!!
In Jh.6:49-50 we must imply a spiritual deadness to the "Fathers" who ate the manna in the wilderness,They were LOST souls and are in Hell today; because Jesus is illustrating the spiritual life of true believers who"never die" v.50 spiritually, because we all die physically. This is a BIG error of today, of thinking the Old testament Jews, who came out of Egypt, were all spiritually saved, going to heaven, NO they were not all saved.,Most were lost and the book of Hebrews warns us not to be "unbelieving and disobedient" as they and be lost. If one can not see the spiritual meanings in the Scriptures, one will keep making "gross" mistakes. in all their doctrines. Love to all, Hoffco

Brother_Don · Oct 27, 2015

Yes, Exodus 35:31, And He hath filled him with the Spirit of God, in wisdom, in understanding, and in knowledge, and in all manner of workmanship.

Brother_Don · Oct 27, 2015

1 Samuel 10:10, And when they came thither to the hill, behold, a company of prophets met him; and the Spirit of God came upon him, and he prophesied among them.

Hoffco · Oct 27, 2015

We need to see Jesus' meaning when he spoke to Nicodemus, " except one is born of the Spirit, he can not enter into the Kingdom of God."v.5 . And in Jh. 3:21 Jesus is implying that those who do the good deeds, holy persons, receive Jesus, and show, the new birth, which He gave them. "But he who does the truth comes to the light, that his deeds may be clearly seen, that they have been done in God." Which means: those who are born of God, receive Jesus as their Lord and Savior, because they were MADE holy, a new nature, by the Holy Spirit's birth of their sinful natures. If one can not see and accept the Election in love, in Christ, of all who will be saved by God, they will misinterpret every thing in the Bible. The point of this thread is to teach that all the "elect" of God, are/will be Born of the Spirit, In both, old and new testaments. Nicodemus had to be born again, and he was under the Old T.. David in Psa 51 pleaded with God, not to take His Spirit from him. David felt and knew the presence of the H.S. in His daily life. We have been feed a bunch of lies about the H.S. in the O.T.. The NEW coming of the H.S. in Acts was a new Beginning of the church, not its beginning. The Church is ReFRESHED, RECOMMISSIONED, in ,at Pentecost, not began. Remember, the indwelling of the Spirit is for once and for all, BUT, the FILLINGS of the H.S. are MANY. Love to all, Hoffco

Hoffco · Oct 27, 2015

Thank you Brother Don for you confirmation of this great Old t. truth. I trust you also see the eternality of the Church of Christ in God's eternal Cov. of Grace. in Rom. 8:29-30. Love to all Hoffco

P1LGR1M · Oct 27, 2015

crossnote said:

So Moses did not have eternal life, but Joshua did?

Consider:

[h=1]John 6:47-51King James Version (KJV)[/h]47 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me hath everlasting life.

48 I am that bread of life.

49 Your fathers did eat manna in the wilderness, and are dead.

50 This is the bread which cometh down from heaven, that a man may eat thereof, and not die.

51 I am the living bread which came down from heaven: if any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever: and the bread that I will give is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world.

(I figured out how to copy and paste with this thing, lol)

The contrast is between the two provisions.

Is it not clear that Christ is speaking of the Incarnation?

Which of the fathers are in view?

We know Moses is.

The point is they had not passed out of existence. Both passages have to be kept in their distinct contexts or we have Christ contradicting Himself. We wouldn't assume Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob head eternal life but Moses didn't.

[h=1]John 6:35-40King James Version (KJV)[/h]
35 And Jesus said unto them, I am the bread of life: he that cometh to me shall never hunger; and he that believeth on me shall never thirst.

36 But I said unto you, That ye also have seen me, and believe not.

37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.

38 For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me.

39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.

40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

Now show me the Old Testament Saint that was trusting in Christ's death. Show me why the Lord is not here making it clear He came from Heaven to bestow eternal life.

And again, show how this...

[h=1]Hebrews 9:12-15King James Version (KJV)[/h]
12 Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us.

13 For if the blood of bulls and of goats, and the ashes of an heifer sprinkling the unclean, sanctifieth to the purifying of the flesh:

14 How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?

15 And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance.

...does not state plainly that Christ obtained eternal Redemption for us and that the transgressions of the OT Saint were not redeemed at the time of the Cross?

Show men receiving the True Bread before He came. Christ states the fathers are dead and goes on to say...

[h=1]John 6:53King James Version (KJV)[/h]
53 Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you

Who was eating of the True Bread, Cross note? No-one...they ate manna, which provided physic life, not eternal.

And this truth is written iñ some very familiar statements of the Lord:

[h=1]John 3:15-16King James Version (KJV)[/h]
15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.

16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

Not even the disciples believed.

Now, a question of my own: why do people try to deny this teaching?

God bless.

P1LGR1M · Oct 27, 2015

Hoffco said:

The Lord did not make the disciples turn from Him. Their nature did that.

As to lost or saved in regards to the Children of Israel they were all redeemed...from Egypt. But this is temporal redemption, not eternal. Moses was a father yet entered not into the temporal rest. Moses was saved, but not eternally redeemed, and not born again.

I don't recall anyone mentioning transubstantiation.

Sorry for the large text. I'm on a tablet and can't change it.

Not one of the eleven can be found to believe the Gospel.

Please show where they did.

I agree, the children of Israel were spiritually dead...because the new birth was not even à promise at that point. Their redemption was temporal.

No-one is in Hell yet. The lost are in Hades, not Hell.

Hell is the Lake of Fire, and is the place of eternal judgement.

As to who among the children of Israel are still in Hades today, well, that brings up a good point: even the just among them went to Hades, and it was not until their transgressions were redeemed were they allowed entrance into the Holiest of All, that is...Heaven:

[h=1]Hebrews 9:6-9King James Version (KJV)[/h]6 Now when these things were thus ordained, the priests went always into the first tabernacle, accomplishing the service of God.

7 But into the second went the high priest alone once every year, not without blood, which he offered for himself, and for the errors of the people:

8 The Holy Ghost this signifying, that the way into the holiest of all was not yet made manifest, while as the first tabernacle was yet standing:

9 Which was a figure for the time then present, in which were offered both gifts and sacrifices, that could not make him that did the service perfect, as pertaining to the conscience;

Christ made the way into Heaven manifest, through His death and faith in His death.

That is what is being taught in John 6. To eat of His flesh and drink of His blood is to trust that His offering of His flesh saves...

[h=1]John 6:51King James Version (KJV)[/h]51 I am the living bread which came down from heaven: if any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever: and the bread that I will give is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world.

Agreed. And that life is specific to faith in the Cross.

Find one Old Testament Saint who did this.

We know most were unbelievers based on Hebrews.

As for the believers, they were not eating of His flesh but the provision they did have...manna. Christ makes that clear.

Agree completely with this.

God bless.

P1LGR1M · Oct 27, 2015

Brother_Don said:

Doesn't negate Christ's teaching that men were not eternally imdwelt:

[h=1]John 14:16-17King James Version (KJV)[/h]16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;

17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.

The ministry of the Spirit among men will change. The filling of the Spirit we see in the Old Testament is identical to His filling of the Believer today, for the purpose of empowerment. But if we fail to mark the distinctions Christ teaches we will impose something into the Old Testament that isn't there, thus diminishing the magnitude of our Savior's Work.

Here is what will take place after the Lord returns to Heaven:

[h=1]John 14:18-23King James Version (KJV)[/h]18 I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you.

19 Yet a little while, and the world seeth me no more; but ye see me: because I live, ye shall live also.

20 At that day ye shall know that I am in my Father, and ye in me, and I in you.

21 He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.

22 Judas saith unto him, not Iscariot, Lord, how is it that thou wilt manifest thyself unto us, and not unto the world?

23 Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.

Christ teaches the timeline of events.

The Spirit was with them, but not in them for ever. They were not eternally imdwelt. They were not born again believers, but Old Testament believers who would, in just a few short hours...not only abandon Christ, but Peter will seek to save his physical life by vehemently denying he even knew Christ.

God bless.

ladylynn · Oct 27, 2015

The differences between the old and new covenants matter. The way I read many of you, you are saying all that both covenants needed was faith. But that is just not so. The law required works from people.

God never stopped demanding righteousness from man until Jesus actually came and GAVE it as a gift. Until He gave it, it was NOT had. Righteousness was imparted through the finished work of Jesus and not before. Rom.4:5-7

Unless a man was RIGHTEOUS, he could not be in God's presence or God would not be holding up the standard of perfection that He demanded. God would not be holy if He allowed men who were 'faithful' come into His presence since no one is righteous NO NOT ONE. Sin is on Adam's race. It was IMPUTED to us through Adam. It took Jesus to IMPUTE HIS righteousness on us and HE took our sin that was IMPUTED to Him.

The Children of Israel were blessed ONLY if they obeyed God's commandments perfectly---inwardly and outwardly Duet.28:13-14 And even then they were waiting for the promise to be fulfilled. Even David and Moses had to wait for the finished work to be done. They waited in Abraham's bosom., Jesus came and set them free and ushered them into God's presence AFTER He said IT IS FINISHED.

New Covenant believers do not depend on their self-efforts to receive God's blessings, because Jesus FULFILLED every one of the requirements of the law on their behalf Colossians 2:14

There is so much more but I'm headed to work. Not only was the HolySpirit not in the old testament saint to give them the power to stop sin in their lives., the law has no power to make anyone holy or just or good.

Under the new covenant of Grace, sin has no dominion over believers. Romans 6:14 MAJOR differences IN these covenants. All Adam's race has Imputed sin. Under the covenant of law it was not taken away.

Again, to dismiss the covenants and the requirements and the consequences of not doing them and saying faith came in just the same as the new covenant is totally incorrect.

P1LGR1M · Oct 27, 2015

Brother_Don said:

Saul makes the case. The Spirit if God departed from him showing that he was not eternally imdwelt.

While the L.O.S.T (loss of salvation teachers) teach this is a picture of a born again believer losing salvation, that conflicts with New Testament teachings which make it clear that the eternal indwelling of God is the surity of eternal Redemption:

[h=1]2 Corinthians 5:4-6King James Version (KJV)[/h]
4 For we that are in this tabernacle do groan, being burdened: not for that we would be unclothed, but clothed upon, that mortality might be swallowed up of life.

5 Now he that hath wrought us for the selfsame thing is God, who also hath given unto us the earnest of the Spirit.

6 Therefore we are always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord:

7 (For we walk by faith, not by sight)

8 We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.

You can see what earnest means here...

https://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?Strongs=G728&t=KJV

The point here is to make it clear that the eternal indwelling guarantees that whether physically alive or dead, we are with God and He is with us, which is precisely what Christ teaches here...

[h=1]John 14:20King James Version (KJV)[/h]20 At that day ye shall know that I am in my Father, and ye in me, and I in you.

God bless.

P1LGR1M · Oct 27, 2015

ladylynn said:

Agree with this in large part but we need to keep in mind that the righteousness we do see in the Old Testament was a result of divine intervention. The revelation God provided in those Ages did at times have a result of obedience. Abraham obeyed the revelation provided him and it was accounted righteousness. We don't equate that righteousness or any temporàl righteousness with the imputed righteousness of Christ, but we do acknowledge God empowering men for offices such as Prophet, Priest, and King, as well as in the lives of individuals such as we see here:

[h=1]Luke 1:5-6King James Version (KJV)[/h]5 There was in the days of Herod, the king of Judaea, a certain priest named Zacharias, of the course of Abia: and his wife was of the daughters of Aaron, and her name was Elisabeth.

6 And they were both righteous before God, walking in all the commandments and ordinances of the Lord blameless.

That righteousness was on a temporal level not equal to that of Christ, and their ability to live righteously on a temporal would be due to the Old Testament ministry of the Spirit, who empowered believers, but did not eternally indwell believers as Christ teaches He will in the Ministry of the Comforter.

This new ministry is the means of conviction unto salvation:

[h=1]John 16:7-9King James Version (KJV)[/h]
7 Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.

8 And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment:

9 Of sin, because they believe not on me;

Now the important distinction between the two ministries is the revelation the Spirit is enlightening men to. Until the New Covenant is established, the Doctrine of Christ is only foundational and shrouded in mystery:

[h=1]Romans 16:24-26King James Version (KJV)[/h]
24 The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you all. Amen.

25 Now to him that is of power to stablish you according to my gospel, and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery, which was kept secret since the world began,

26 But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith:

(Note-underlining is unintentional)

Good bless.

P1LGR1M · Oct 27, 2015

Hoffco said:

That men are regenerated so they can understand the Gospel, repent and place their faith in Christ...is error.

The Comforter ministers to the lost, unbelievers, and it is then that they receive or reject the Gospel.

But is agree we need to understand Christ in John 3, and when we understand the Gospel of Christ was not revealed in that Age (of Law, nor in any proior), we then try to understand what Kingdom fits.

And that would be the temporal Kingdom promised to Israel.

This is why the disciples were sent out to preach the Gospel of the Kingdom, not the Gospel of Christ.

While we know that Christ is referring to the Eternal Kingdom, Nicodemus would have had the same Kingdom in view that the disciples did.

Trying to interpret the Bible in light of only the Doctrine of Election is what will lead to error.

And I would remind you that Election is New Testament revelation. Just as the Mystery of the Gospel is.

That's not the point of this thread at all. Read the OP and following discussion to understand the focus.

And so far no credible presentation or argument denies the simple truth that men were not born again before Pentecost.

And we don't pray such prayers, do we?

Because we know that the eternal indwelling is eternal. So it is unreasonable to equate this passage to something taught as a future event by Christ.

There are no Christians who are not simultaneously eternally imdwelt and born again.

True. So do Christians. Doesn't change the fact that Scripture distinguishes between indwelling and filling.

Sorry to hear that. But that is not the case with all of us.

The fellowships I have been a member of have all consistently properly distiñguished between the differing ministries of the Holy Ghost before and after the Church was established.

On the contrary, prior to Pentecost Jew and Gentile were separated. They are made one in Christ.

Secondly, Christ builds His Church on confession of Who He is and profession of faith in Himself.

And only in this Age is that knowledge revealed to men.

There was no Church prior to Pentecost. The "Church in the wilderness" was made up of primarily unbelieving idolaters who did not mix faith with the Gospel (which is the revelation of God in any Age) they heard. That Gospel promised temporal rest, whereas the Gospel of Christ promises Eternal Rest.

True. And we see the filling of the Spirit in the Old Testament, but as Christ taught, the eternal indwelling did not begin until He returned to Heaven.

P1LGR1M · Oct 27, 2015

Hoffco said:

How does this...

[h=1]Romans 8:29-30King James Version (KJV)[/h]
29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

...negate this...

[h=1]Acts 20:28King James Version (KJV)[/h]28 Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood.

...or this...

[h=1]Matthew 16:16-18King James Version (KJV)[/h]16 And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God.

17 And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.

18 And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

...?

Again, I ask that you expound upon this:

[h=1]Hebrews 9:12-15King James Version (KJV)[/h]
12 Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us.

13 For if the blood of bulls and of goats, and the ashes of an heifer sprinkling the unclean, sanctifieth to the purifying of the flesh:

14 How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?

15 And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance.

God bless.

Hoffco · Oct 28, 2015

To teach that the O.T. saints had to obey the laws of God and the N.T. saint don't, is a gross error. Rom.2:13 "(For not the hearers of the law are just in the sight of God, but the doers of the law will be justified;" so much of Jesus teaching tells us to be holy,or we will not gain Heaven when we die. God has always required three things for salvation: 1, Repentance 2. trusting God 3. obedience to God. Only "born again" saints can do this. Hoffco

Grandpa · Oct 28, 2015

I've wondered about this.

Reading the Psalms you can't help but wonder if the Author was in fact born again. How did he know all the things he knew without the Holy Spirit?

My opinion is that people were born again, a small remnant, in the OT times. I can't give any definite proof. Its just something I think about when I read from the Prophets and Psalms.

Hoffco · Oct 28, 2015

I am giving the PROOF.Here is another.! In the O.T. : The "elect" JEW in the O.T. differed from the non "elect" JEW. The "elect" in the O.T. included the "elect" gentiles and the "elect" Jews. Th NATION of Israel was not chosen to salvation; But a few "elect" Jews and Gentiles were. To show the Church of Christ existed in the O.T. : look at Rom.11:16-29. We gentiles were grafted into the Jewish olive tree, of the O.T.. and see Jh.10:16"And other sheep I have which are not of this (JEWISH) fold; them (GENTILES) also I must bring, and they will hear My voice; and there will be one flock (CHURCH) and one shepherd." So. All of "elect" Israel will be saved, and all the "elect' of the Gentiles will be saved. This is what the Eternal Covenant of God's Grace, of Rom.8:29-20 teaches. In every age, God has His "elect". Predestined ones, and all of them will be saved and will be ONE in Christ through out eternity on the New earth. the earth belongs to ALL the elect ones of all ages. Love to all, Hoffco

P1LGR1M · Oct 29, 2015

Hoffco said:

You have yet to address the Scripture presented.

We have to distinguish between the Law (Word of God) and the Covenant of Law. Nothing in this thread suggests that "the O.T. saints had to obey the laws of God and the N.T. saint don't," but in regards to the Law it is a matter of...

...no-one has kept the Law.

This is why God promised a New Covenant:

Hebrews 8:7-8

King James Version (KJV)
[SUP]7 [/SUP]For if that first covenant had been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the second.

[SUP]8 [/SUP]For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah:

So could you quote someone saying "the O.T. saints had to obey the laws of God and the N.T. saint don't?"

God bless.

Were Men Born Again Before Pentecost?

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