The Immaculate Conception Error

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Mitspa

Guest
#81
Do you guys read anything in context ? Ez 18 is not talking about indwelling sin...but acts of sin...according to the law...we have the New Testament, we can see the end of this issue.
 

valiant

Senior Member
Mar 22, 2015
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#82
If you think it is scripture, where is the texts that support the concept understood as Original Sin.

If you read the post correctly, both RCC and all Protestant hold to Augustine's theory of Original Sin. Show the scripture that supports Original Sion.
'I was shapen in iniquity and in sin did my mother conceive me.' (psal 51.5)'The wicked are estranged from the womb (why? because they have inherited sin). They go astray as soon as they are born, speaking lies'. (psalm 58.3)

There is none who does good, no not one. That can only be so because we are born sinners.

Romans 5.12-22 only makes sense if we inherit Adam's sinfulness. But I do not hold to the doctrine of original guilt. Each man is guilty because HE is a sinner.
 
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#83
have you even read the bible?
Where have you been? I've been quoting Romans chapter 5 for sometime now.

Ro 5:14 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.
By Adam's transgression the human race was made sinners. That's because Adam passed to his descendants a life that had sinned (and therefore a slave to sin) and a life indwelt with the love of self (iniquity). So Adam's transgression, i.e., the breaking of a known command, caused the human race to become sinners.

Romans 5:13 "for before the law was given, sin was in the world. But sin is not taken into account when there is no law."
So a sinner isn't the same as a transgressor. Transgression makes you a guilty sinner. Transgression involves volition - the known breaking of a law or a command.

That's why those who have not reached the age of accountability can't be charged with transgression.
 
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#84
Do you guys read anything in context ? Ez 18 is not talking about indwelling sin....
No one said it was....It's talking about that transgression can't be transferred. We can't be charged with Adam's sin unless we repeat it. The tree of the knowledge of good and evil was in the Garden of Eden. So I can't eat of it and repeat that sin.
 
Oct 3, 2015
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#85
Each man is guilty because HE is a sinner.
Absolutely not!

Rom 4:15 "where there is no law there is no transgression"

Romans 5:13 "sin (transgression) is not taken into account when there is no law"
 
Oct 3, 2015
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#86
That's why those who have not reached the age of accountability can't be charged with transgression.
Babies are sinners. Babies sin. In what sense? They are selfish at no fault of their own. The reason they sin is because they were born slaves to indwelling sin (self-love).

Are they guilty sinners? No!

Why not? Because transgression involves volition. Transgression involves the ability to reason and comprehend God's law either directly or indirectly. Directly through the law or indirectly, through conscience.
 
Oct 3, 2015
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#87
Absolutely not!

Rom 4:15 "where there is no law there is no transgression"

Romans 5:13 "sin (transgression) is not taken into account when there is no law"
Sorry, I didn't read your entire post for you said, "...I do not hold to the doctrine of original guilt. Each man is guilty because HE is a sinner."


[video]http://www.hulu.com/watch/2364[/video]
 

Cassian

Senior Member
Oct 12, 2013
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#88
'I was shapen in iniquity and in sin did my mother conceive me.' (psal 51.5)'The wicked are estranged from the womb (why? because they have inherited sin). They go astray as soon as they are born, speaking lies'. (psalm 58.3)

There is none who does good, no not one. That can only be so because we are born sinners.

Romans 5.12-22 only makes sense if we inherit Adam's sinfulness. But I do not hold to the doctrine of original guilt. Each man is guilty because HE is a sinner.
Ps 51.5 does not address an infant, but the parents.
Pa 58.3 is hyperbole, did you ever see an infant speak lies?
However, one may go astray soon after birth, but not because they inherited sin.

Could you theologically explain just how sin can be inherited?

You are also incorrectly paraphrasing Ps 14 and Paul's quoting of it in Rom 3.
 
Nov 23, 2013
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#89
The immaculate conception is very easy to understand. Mary was a sinner not the mother of God. She was chsen among women and not above women. As a virgin she ovulated and her ovum was impregnated by the Holy Spirit, therefore the sin nature of Adam, which comes from the sperm of the man was not transferred by conception to the body of Jesus inside the womb of Mary. There was not spot or stain of sin transferred through conception. This did not make the virgin Mary any greater than any other woman, but she had to be a virgin. Mary later conceived other sons and daughters with her husband Joseph and none of these conceptions were immaculate.
Does the bible say the sin nature comes from the sperm of men?
 

Cassian

Senior Member
Oct 12, 2013
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#90


That phrase is not used in the Bible. Here's what Paul states:

Rom 5:12 (NAS) Therefore, just as through one man (Adam) sin entered into the world, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men, because all sinned (in Adam)....

Through Adam, sin entered the human race. Sin (singular), the love of self (iniquity), polluted the human race within Adam. Since our life substance was in Adam when he transgressed, all Adam could pass pass to his posterity, through procreation, was a life polluted with iniquity.

As I have stated before, iniquity is not an act (as in transgression), but rather an condition. When Adam transgressed his nature took a u-turn from agape love to self-love. Because our lives are the multiplication of Adam's fallen life we are born in iniquity, i.e., we are born with self-love (not agape). Since we are born without God's Spirit dwelling in our spirit (i.e., our inner mind) our fallen nature and mind are naturally in harmony and we instantly sin.

King David, as an infant, is a good example:

"Behold, I (David) was brought forth in iniquity, And in sin (iniquity) my mother conceived me." Ps 51:5 (NAS)

As a result of the fall, man by very nature is spiritually “bent,” so that the driving force of his very nature is the love of self. Paul defines it as “the law of sin and death” [Romans 7:23; 8:2]. It is this condition that is the basis of all our sinning, and which makes us slaves to sin [Romans 3:9-12; 7:14].
I'm not quite sure you correctly understand Rom 5:12 but you are very close. The text actually shows that man does NOT inherit either the sin of Adam nor his guilt.
What it states is that the condemnation of death resulted because of Adam's sin, and that all men sinned BECAUSE of the condlemnation of death to Adam. Man is born mortal. It is our nature that we inherit by birth. We are born in a state of death. The sting of death is sin I Coe 15:56. We sin as a result of our mortal nature. Scripture never states man has a sin nature. Christ did not raise a sin nature when He arose from the dead. He raised our mortal natures to immortality. I Cor 15:52-54.

Consequently, man is born mortal, not a sinner. Sin is an act, not a organic element. You cannot inherit an act of sin, nor, the far worse statement of the Original Sin theory, is that God actually imputes sin into man. It is an anomaly of the false teaching that God imposes death, imputes sin, and then needs to correct the situation by supposedly pouring all of His wrath against what He did upon Christ.
 

Cassian

Senior Member
Oct 12, 2013
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#91
have you even read the bible?

Ro 5:14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.
15 But not as the offence, so also is the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many.
16 And not as it was by one that sinned, so is the gift: for the judgment was by one to condemnation, but the free gift is of many offences unto justification.
17 For if by one man's offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.)
18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.
19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.
I have but have you. Rom 5:12 condemns the whole theory that is being tossed, Original Sin theory. It clearly states that death is what in herited and vs 18 part of the equation, life through Christ is given to all. It is the very same equation of I Cor 15:12-22, vs 22 being the summary.
 
M

Mitspa

Guest
#92
I have but have you. Rom 5:12 condemns the whole theory that is being tossed, Original Sin theory. It clearly states that death is what in herited and vs 18 part of the equation, life through Christ is given to all. It is the very same equation of I Cor 15:12-22, vs 22 being the summary.
"Made sinners" what do you think that means? now im not defending any "theory" but the evident Word of God which clearly describes that we where made sinners because of Adams disobedience ...as Paul continues to teach throughout this epistle ...that the purpose of the law was not to justify but to show us this very fact...that we all have sin in the flesh.
 

Cassian

Senior Member
Oct 12, 2013
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#93
"Made sinners" what do you think that means? now im not defending any "theory" but the evident Word of God which clearly describes that we where made sinners because of Adams disobedience ...as Paul continues to teach throughout this epistle ...that the purpose of the law was not to justify but to show us this very fact...that we all have sin in the flesh.
If you think that God actually made sinners you are far from scripture.
God permitted Satan to take man captive through death because that death was through Adam"s nature. God already had the plan of Christ to redeem mankind. God in his wisdom would have Christ be born of a women, man, in order to obtain the same nature as man. Having that very same nature, without any exceptions, except He did not sin, Christ would save mankind from death, our primary problem due to the fall as well as the secondary one, that of sin.

Death and sin are tools of the devil, not God. Heb 2:14, I John 3:8. I might also add that Rom 11:32 states the same thing. God allowed disobedience to all. Why? So He could have mercy upon all men.

The Theory of Original Sin does no even address the primary problem of the fall, namely the condemnation of death, the power of Satan, not God.

Paul does not ever teach anything related to the theory of Original Sin. From Rom 3: 24-25. Rom 5:6-10, From 5:12-18. I Cor 15 the entire chapter, Heb 2:9, II Tim 1:10.

There just is nothing scriptural regarding the theory of Original Sin. God is NOT the author of death. God does not impute sin or guilt. Man is NOT born a sinner. Theologicllly the theory denies the scriptural definition of the Incarnaion.

That is quite obvious in this thread because most argument are all trying to save Jesus from sin. With the correct understanding one does not face that dilemma.
 

onlinebuddy

Senior Member
Sep 1, 2012
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#94
The reason that all are going in circles is that IC is premised on the Original Sin theory. If you prove IC false, you must also prove the Original Sin theory false. If one holds to the Original Sin theory, IC is no different than many of the statements I have seen in this thread by those going around and around with Original Sin.

The Theory of Original Sin is not scriptural. It has become so pervasive in all textbooks, all theologies both for the RCC and most, if not all, Protestants. Everyone assumes that it must be correct. One can see by all the banter of the arguments trying to get around the error, not realizing that the theory itself is unscriptural.
I understand what you are saying. However, original sin is just part of the problem. Even if you debunk the concept of Original sin, Catholics believe that Mary never willfully sinned in her entire life.
Then there are others on this thread who do not believe in the IC of Mary, but they believe that Jesus himself was born with the fallen nature of Adam, or a nature indwelt with iniquity.
I was just trying to read through and learn somethings, but this thread is turning out to be a mess already.
 
Oct 3, 2015
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#95
I...man does NOT inherit either the sin of Adam nor his guilt.

Let's clarify some terms:

a] Transgression: Breaking a known law or command. This is an act, physically or mentally (such as coveting). This makes us guilty before God's law.

b] Iniquity: Not an act, but a condition.

We do not inherit Adam's guilt (transgression), but we do inherit Adam's condition.

If I put arsenic in the mouth of a river then everyone who drinks from that river is affected. My action damages everyone.

When Adam sinned he ruined humanity. It became "bent-to-self" (selfish) and this introduce mortality.

We are the multiplication of Adam's life after the fall. We share his ruined humanity indwelt with our love of self (sin). That doesn't make us guilty, it makes us condemned because "flesh and blood cannot enter heaven."

We are sinners by birth because our mind is controlled by our love of self (indwelling sin) and we go astray at birth.
 
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#96
We are the multiplication of Adam's life after the fall. We share his ruined humanity indwelt with our love of self (sin). That doesn't make us guilty, it makes us condemned....
Rom 5:18 "So then as through one transgression (Adam's) there resulted condemnation to all men..."

Notice that Adam's transgression condemned the human race within Him. The text doesn't say that Adam's transgression made all men guilty before God's law.

Then what brings guilt?

verse 20 "The Law came in so that the transgression would increase..."

The law was given not so we could try to earn salvation and thus be saved. The law was given to turn sinners into transgressors. The law was given to make matters worse so that we might see our need of Christ and be justified by faith.
 
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#97
The law was given to make matters worse so that we might see our need of Christ and be justified by faith.
Gal 3:23 Before this faith came, we were held prisoners by the law, locked up until faith should be revealed. 24 So the law was put in charge to lead us to Christ that we might be justified by faith. 25 Now that faith has come, we are no longer under the supervision of the law.
 
M

Mitspa

Guest
#98
If you think that God actually made sinners you are far from scripture.
God permitted Satan to take man captive through death because that death was through Adam"s nature. God already had the plan of Christ to redeem mankind. God in his wisdom would have Christ be born of a women, man, in order to obtain the same nature as man. Having that very same nature, without any exceptions, except He did not sin, Christ would save mankind from death, our primary problem due to the fall as well as the secondary one, that of sin.

Death and sin are tools of the devil, not God. Heb 2:14, I John 3:8. I might also add that Rom 11:32 states the same thing. God allowed disobedience to all. Why? So He could have mercy upon all men.

The Theory of Original Sin does no even address the primary problem of the fall, namely the condemnation of death, the power of Satan, not God.

Paul does not ever teach anything related to the theory of Original Sin. From Rom 3: 24-25. Rom 5:6-10, From 5:12-18. I Cor 15 the entire chapter, Heb 2:9, II Tim 1:10.

There just is nothing scriptural regarding the theory of Original Sin. God is NOT the author of death. God does not impute sin or guilt. Man is NOT born a sinner. Theologicllly the theory denies the scriptural definition of the Incarnaion.

That is quite obvious in this thread because most argument are all trying to save Jesus from sin. With the correct understanding one does not face that dilemma.
Who said God made sinners ...THE BIBLE says in evident words that we where "made sinners" because of Adam disobedience ... Now either you believe the bible or you don't? Its sounds like you and some others here don't believe the bible.

19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.
 

Cassian

Senior Member
Oct 12, 2013
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#99
I understand what you are saying. However, original sin is just part of the problem. Even if you debunk the concept of Original sin, Catholics believe that Mary never willfully sinned in her entire life.
Then there are others on this thread who do not believe in the IC of Mary, but they believe that Jesus himself was born with the fallen nature of Adam, or a nature indwelt with iniquity.
I was just trying to read through and learn somethings, but this thread is turning out to be a mess already.
I suspect that the idea that Mary never sinned is based in the IC concept because both are a necessary means to clear Mary and Jesus from Original Sin.
When the fall is correctly understood outside of the Original Sin theory, then one does not have a problem with Christ being born of Mary and assuming our mortal nature. No man is born a sinner or with sin. It order to be a sinner one must sin.
 

onlinebuddy

Senior Member
Sep 1, 2012
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Let's clarify some terms:

a] Transgression: Breaking a known law or command. This is an act, physically or mentally (such as coveting). This makes us guilty before God's law.

b] Iniquity: Not an act, but a condition.
Do you have verses that differentiate between your concept of iniquity from transgression. I thought the Bible uses these terms interchangeably.