The Immaculate Conception Error
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Originally Posted by valiant
'I was shapen in iniquity and in sin did my mother conceive me.' (psal 51.5)'The wicked are estranged from the womb (why? because they have inherited sin). They go astray as soon as they are born, speaking lies'. (psalm 58.3)
There is none who does good, no not one. That can only be so because we are born sinners.
Romans 5.12-22 only makes sense if we inherit Adam's sinfulness. But I do not hold to the doctrine of original guilt. Each man is guilty because HE is a sinner.
There is none who does good, no not one. That can only be so because we are born sinners.
Romans 5.12-22 only makes sense if we inherit Adam's sinfulness. But I do not hold to the doctrine of original guilt. Each man is guilty because HE is a sinner.
yes as soon as they are born they try to attract attention by deceit. it is part of their nature. It specifically says that they go astray from the womb. That is not hyperbole.
but it says ALL not just those who survive for a few years.
very simply, by a perverted nature.
Anyone can check that that is untrue.
If you avoid the plain meaning of Scripture you can make anything say anything.
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Wow, okay we have a major disagreement. And things were going well....
We are born bent-to-self. We are born selfish. We are born self-centered. This is not how God created us before the fall in Adam. In Adam we were in the image and likeness of God, but after the fall things changed:
Before:
"God created man in his own image, in the image of God he created him; male and female he created them." Gen 1:27
After:
Gen 5:1 This is the book of the generations of Adam. In the day that God created man, in the likeness of God made he him; 2 Male and female created he them; and blessed them, and called their name Adam, in the day when they were created . 3 And Adam lived an hundred and thirty years (after the fall), and begat a son in his own likeness, after his image; and called his name Seth:
We became sinners, not because God imposed(imputed) sin to us, nor because we inherited sin and guilt from Adam, ONLY because we inherit a mortal nature from Adam. We sin because we are mortal. And that righteousness of Christ made all men alive again as well. From Adam (death/mortality) to Christ (life). Rom 5:18, I Cor 15:22, John 6:39, all state that the equation is always death to life. It never speaks of Adam's sin or our supposedly inherited sin and guilt, or even death imposed by God. Christ overcame death the power of Satan, Heb 2:14-17.
Valiant,
It is interpreted to fit the Original Sin theory, however, man is born innocent. It matters not how much of a sinner a person's parents are. Sin and guilt is NOT transmitted by birth, at least not by anything in scripture. That is only in the Original Sin theory.
It is hyperbole. Again it is interpreted so it fits an Original Sin theory, but a babe is innocent. However what the hyperbole is trying to convey is that we humans have a disposition to sin easily because we are mortal. Our passions are out of balance.
because we are all born mortal. Scripture also says no man sinneth not. This theory gets very problematic with infants. Augustine stated that all infant go to hell. Protestants who follow Augustine on this and then make "belief" the end all of salvation, condemn all children, all adults to hell because they have not believed including children of christian parents. This is why these problems come up in Protestant theologies and goes around and around with no solution because the premise if false for both sides of the argument.
So one needs a perverted nature before on can ihherit sin?
yes, which attests to Augustine and Calvin, an ardent disciple of Augusine relative to Original Sin.
It is interpreted to fit the Original Sin theory, however, man is born innocent. It matters not how much of a sinner a person's parents are. Sin and guilt is NOT transmitted by birth, at least not by anything in scripture. That is only in the Original Sin theory.
It is hyperbole. Again it is interpreted so it fits an Original Sin theory, but a babe is innocent. However what the hyperbole is trying to convey is that we humans have a disposition to sin easily because we are mortal. Our passions are out of balance.
because we are all born mortal. Scripture also says no man sinneth not. This theory gets very problematic with infants. Augustine stated that all infant go to hell. Protestants who follow Augustine on this and then make "belief" the end all of salvation, condemn all children, all adults to hell because they have not believed including children of christian parents. This is why these problems come up in Protestant theologies and goes around and around with no solution because the premise if false for both sides of the argument.
So one needs a perverted nature before on can ihherit sin?
yes, which attests to Augustine and Calvin, an ardent disciple of Augusine relative to Original Sin.
Adam became mortal. It is his mortal nature, death that is inherited by all men. We sin because of our mortal nature. I Cor 15:56 lays it out very clearly. Seth was born mortal, He dies at some point. He also sinned because all men do sin. not because they inherited sin or guilt, but inherited death, a mortal nature.
Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, and in this way death came to all people, because all sinned[Romans 5:12]
This verse says that death (mortality) came to all man because of one man: Adam. Then it tells us the main reason why death came to us: "because all sinned." Now if we say that we sinned when we were in "Adam's loins," that's Calvinism.(and I'm aware of the Melchizedek connection in relation to tithing)
This verse is talking about our willful sin that sealed our fate and proved that if we would have been in Adam's place, we (according to the foreknowledge of God) would have done exactly the same thing, i.e. we would also have eaten of the fruit. So we have no excuse and cannot blame God for making us subject to death, since we are no better than Adam. No original sin mentioned here. No flesh indwelt with iniquity mentioned here. These are terms and phrases coined due to a doctrinal bias.
Consequently, just as one trespass resulted in condemnation for all people, so also one righteous act resulted in justification and life for all people.[Romans 5:18]
This verse says that condemnation came to all men. It does not say all are counted as sinners due to Adam's sin. So no hint of Original Sin here. Also no hint of flesh indwelt with iniquity here. This verse also says that Jesus took care of the damage Adam had done. He squared it all!!! So we need not worry about the effect of Adam's sin. we need to worry about dealing with our own willful sin, for which we have no excuse, and for which we will be held accountable.
For just as through the disobedience of the one man the many were made sinners, so also through the obedience of the one man the many will be made righteous.[Romans 5:19]
Here it says "many" were made righteous. Let us note that "many" does not mean "all." If we are saying all are made righteous (and are thus saved), we are preaching Universalism, which is not scriptural. Only those who accept Jesus are made righteous.
Let us apply the same logic as we continue reading this verse. The same verse says "many" were made (or counted as) sinners. Applying the same logic, we cannot say "all" (entire mankind) was made (or counted as) sinners. So this verse cannot prove Original Sin of all mankind, since only those who sinned (willfully) are made (or counted as) sinners. Since this verse is talking about "many," we can't use it to prove that 'all' are born with a fallen nature and flesh indwelt with iniquity. The sin talked about here is not the indwelt or imputed sin (or iniquity) due to Adam, and even if it does, it cannot be generally applied to all mankind(and surely not to Jesus).
You are a sinner, when you commit a sin out of your own will or volition.<= Simple and scriptural!
If you sin, you can't blame it on Adam. Need to own up.<= Simple and scriptural!
Temptations can be overcome with the help of the Holy Spirit <= Simple and scriptural!
Temptations can be overcome by focusing on the Word of God. <= Simple and scriptural!
God did not need a sinless virgin to bring forth Jesus. <= Simple and scriptural!
God just needed a virgin who was highly favored in his sight. <= Simple and scriptural!
The concept of Immaculate Conception is a fabricated lie, since it sets the stage for other fabricated Marian concepts of sinlessness, annunciation, intercession, mediatrix, redemptrix, indulgences, etc.
This verse says that death (mortality) came to all man because of one man: Adam. Then it tells us the main reason why death came to us: "because all sinned." Now if we say that we sinned when we were in "Adam's loins," that's Calvinism.(and I'm aware of the Melchizedek connection in relation to tithing)
This verse is talking about our willful sin that sealed our fate and proved that if we would have been in Adam's place, we (according to the foreknowledge of God) would have done exactly the same thing, i.e. we would also have eaten of the fruit. So we have no excuse and cannot blame God for making us subject to death, since we are no better than Adam. No original sin mentioned here. No flesh indwelt with iniquity mentioned here. These are terms and phrases coined due to a doctrinal bias.
Consequently, just as one trespass resulted in condemnation for all people, so also one righteous act resulted in justification and life for all people.[Romans 5:18]
This verse says that condemnation came to all men. It does not say all are counted as sinners due to Adam's sin. So no hint of Original Sin here. Also no hint of flesh indwelt with iniquity here. This verse also says that Jesus took care of the damage Adam had done. He squared it all!!! So we need not worry about the effect of Adam's sin. we need to worry about dealing with our own willful sin, for which we have no excuse, and for which we will be held accountable.
For just as through the disobedience of the one man the many were made sinners, so also through the obedience of the one man the many will be made righteous.[Romans 5:19]
Here it says "many" were made righteous. Let us note that "many" does not mean "all." If we are saying all are made righteous (and are thus saved), we are preaching Universalism, which is not scriptural. Only those who accept Jesus are made righteous.
Let us apply the same logic as we continue reading this verse. The same verse says "many" were made (or counted as) sinners. Applying the same logic, we cannot say "all" (entire mankind) was made (or counted as) sinners. So this verse cannot prove Original Sin of all mankind, since only those who sinned (willfully) are made (or counted as) sinners. Since this verse is talking about "many," we can't use it to prove that 'all' are born with a fallen nature and flesh indwelt with iniquity. The sin talked about here is not the indwelt or imputed sin (or iniquity) due to Adam, and even if it does, it cannot be generally applied to all mankind(and surely not to Jesus).
You are a sinner, when you commit a sin out of your own will or volition.<= Simple and scriptural!
If you sin, you can't blame it on Adam. Need to own up.<= Simple and scriptural!
Temptations can be overcome with the help of the Holy Spirit <= Simple and scriptural!
Temptations can be overcome by focusing on the Word of God. <= Simple and scriptural!
God did not need a sinless virgin to bring forth Jesus. <= Simple and scriptural!
God just needed a virgin who was highly favored in his sight. <= Simple and scriptural!
The concept of Immaculate Conception is a fabricated lie, since it sets the stage for other fabricated Marian concepts of sinlessness, annunciation, intercession, mediatrix, redemptrix, indulgences, etc.
Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man(i.e. Adam), and death (came to Adam)through (Adam's) sin, and in this way (in the way death came to Adam due to his sin) death (also) came to all people(i.e. us), because all (we, just like Adam) sinned[Romans 5:12]
Note that a comparison is being made here between Adam and the rest of mankind (us). I have divided the verse into 2 parts:
PART 1 (about Adam)
Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man(i.e. Adam), and death (came to Adam) through (Adam's) sin,
PART 2 (about mankind)
and in this way (in the way death came to Adam due to his sin) death (also) came to all people(i.e. us), because all (we, just like Adam) sinned
What this verse is talking about? The same thing Romans 6:23 is talking about: For the wages of sin is death,
No imputed sin!!! No nature indwelt with iniquity!!! No Original sin!!!
Note that a comparison is being made here between Adam and the rest of mankind (us). I have divided the verse into 2 parts:
PART 1 (about Adam)
Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man(i.e. Adam), and death (came to Adam) through (Adam's) sin,
PART 2 (about mankind)
and in this way (in the way death came to Adam due to his sin) death (also) came to all people(i.e. us), because all (we, just like Adam) sinned
What this verse is talking about? The same thing Romans 6:23 is talking about: For the wages of sin is death,
No imputed sin!!! No nature indwelt with iniquity!!! No Original sin!!!
Adam sinned and then became mortal. Sin pays in death ("the wages of sin is death"). When Adam sinned his agape became bent-back to himself. In other words Adam's nature took a u-turn towards self. This u-turn agape is self-love.
Self-love cannot fulfill the demands of God's law. What are those demands?
For all the law is fulfilled in one word, even in this: "You shall love your neighbor as yourself." [Gal 5:14]
In other words the law of God demands that you love your neighbors (including your enemies) as you naturally love self. Keep in mind there's one command, not two. It doesn't say love your neighbor and love your self. Our self-love is iniquity. It is our bent-to-self.
Self-love cannot fulfill the demands of God's law. What are those demands?
For all the law is fulfilled in one word, even in this: "You shall love your neighbor as yourself." [Gal 5:14]
In other words the law of God demands that you love your neighbors (including your enemies) as you naturally love self. Keep in mind there's one command, not two. It doesn't say love your neighbor and love your self. Our self-love is iniquity. It is our bent-to-self.
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Now think it out. What did Christ, as the son of man, do his whole life? He denied self. Why would Christ want to live for self - why did He need to deny self? Because He assumed our love of self. Paul calls this "the law of sin" or "sin living in me."
Jesus' whole life was one of self-denial. Jesus thought not, lived not for Himself. He called Himself "the slave of all". He came not to be served, but to serve.
Christ said, The birds of the air have nests, but the son of man has nowhere to lay His head. There were no self-interests, no self-seeking in Christ's life. He denied our bent-to-self.
Jesus' whole life was one of self-denial. Jesus thought not, lived not for Himself. He called Himself "the slave of all". He came not to be served, but to serve.
Christ said, The birds of the air have nests, but the son of man has nowhere to lay His head. There were no self-interests, no self-seeking in Christ's life. He denied our bent-to-self.
the wages of sin that applied to Adam cannot be applied to us. Man cannot die, become mortal twice. However, it can apply to our spiritual relationship with God. Sin separates man from God, thus spiritual death. If we choose not to be united with Christ that separation becomes eternal, known as the Second death.
Part of the fallacy of Original Sin is that if man actually had a sin nature, then sin no longer is a choice. God could not demand that we obey Him. It would be an impossibility. The love is actually the same. We are to love others/enemies as we love ourselves.
Part of the fallacy of Original Sin is that if man actually had a sin nature, then sin no longer is a choice. God could not demand that we obey Him. It would be an impossibility. The love is actually the same. We are to love others/enemies as we love ourselves.
