The Immaculate Conception Error
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K
Yes I agree we are born into a sin nature as a baby, but we are not accounted as sinners tell we reach the age to know right from wrong.
The topic we are talking about here though is that the Catholic doctrine teaches that Mary had to be sinless or her sins would have fallen on and been attributed to Jesus also. The scripture from Ezekiel 18:20 that i gave earlier disproves that nothing as the sins of the parents do not pass on to the offspring.
Jesus would not have been a sinner because Mary has sinned in her life, and the other thing it does is it moves on to perpetual virginity to say she remained a virgin even after Jesus as if for some reason her having other children would demean in some way her being a virgin when she conceived the Lord ??? That in no way takes away from that fulfillment of God's will !!!
The topic we are talking about here though is that the Catholic doctrine teaches that Mary had to be sinless or her sins would have fallen on and been attributed to Jesus also. The scripture from Ezekiel 18:20 that i gave earlier disproves that nothing as the sins of the parents do not pass on to the offspring.
Jesus would not have been a sinner because Mary has sinned in her life, and the other thing it does is it moves on to perpetual virginity to say she remained a virgin even after Jesus as if for some reason her having other children would demean in some way her being a virgin when she conceived the Lord ??? That in no way takes away from that fulfillment of God's will !!!
Guys Guys...we have made more than 50 posts that are not doing justice to the awesome Original Post, which says that the doctrine of IC is false. With the last 2 posts, we are finally getting back on track.
Let us stick to context of the OP, and let us not get distracted by someone who is bent on proving that Jesus was born with a sinful and fallen condition. (Maybe he should start another thread for that)
Blessings to all!
Let us stick to context of the OP, and let us not get distracted by someone who is bent on proving that Jesus was born with a sinful and fallen condition. (Maybe he should start another thread for that)
Blessings to all!
The reason that all are going in circles is that IC is premised on the Original Sin theory. If you prove IC false, you must also prove the Original Sin theory false. If one holds to the Original Sin theory, IC is no different than many of the statements I have seen in this thread by those going around and around with Original Sin.
The Theory of Original Sin is not scriptural. It has become so pervasive in all textbooks, all theologies both for the RCC and most, if not all, Protestants. Everyone assumes that it must be correct. One can see by all the banter of the arguments trying to get around the error, not realizing that the theory itself is unscriptural.
The Theory of Original Sin is not scriptural. It has become so pervasive in all textbooks, all theologies both for the RCC and most, if not all, Protestants. Everyone assumes that it must be correct. One can see by all the banter of the arguments trying to get around the error, not realizing that the theory itself is unscriptural.
M
what do you mean by the term? Sin in the flesh is a clear biblical term...the fall of Adam is a clear biblical truth...if you don't know this then you have no business trying to discuss biblical issues on this forum. Have you read the bible? do you understand biblical terms?
A will also add..don't care about what catholics teach..if they teach some things in agreement with the bible whats that prove? The also teach the trinity and that Jesus Christ is Lord ...are we supposed to reject that now?
A will also add..don't care about what catholics teach..if they teach some things in agreement with the bible whats that prove? The also teach the trinity and that Jesus Christ is Lord ...are we supposed to reject that now?
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It boggles the mind that you are attempting to discuss the falsity of IC but fail to understand it is based on tha fallacy of Original Sin. How would you determine it is false when it is a solution to the percieved falsity of Original Sin as understood by the RCC.
Since this thread is not about Original Sin I won't give some of the arguments of the theory. I'll let you all try to determine how IC is false.
Since this thread is not about Original Sin I won't give some of the arguments of the theory. I'll let you all try to determine how IC is false.
I cannot explain it in Biblical terms because it is NOT biblical.
Here are the principles of the theory as expounded by Augustine, who is only one who has presented a theory on Original Sin.
The Augustinian Theory. This is also called the Theory of Adam's Natural Headship and the Realistic Theory. The Augustinian Theory affirms that, by virtue of organic unity, the whole human race existed in Adam at the time of his transgression. It says that Adam's will was the will of the species, so that in Adam's free act, the will of the race revolted against God, and the nature of the race corrupted itself. All men existed as one moral person in Adam, so that in Adam's sin we sinned, we corrupted ourselves, and we brought guilt and merited condemnation upon ourselves.
1. The whole human race sinned in Adam when he sinned. Adam's will was the will of the race, so that all men sinned in Adam and rebelled with him when he sinned.
2. When Adam sinned, human nature was corrupted, so that now all men are born with a sinful nature.
3. This sinful nature is the fountain and direct cause of all of man's sins. Man sins by nature and cannot help but sin.
4. Because of Adam's transgression, all men are guilty, under the just "wrath and curse of God," and are liable to the "pains of hell forever."
5. Even newborn babies open their eyes in this world under the "wrath and curse" of God. They are guilty and condemned from the moment of their birth.
Here are the principles of the theory as expounded by Augustine, who is only one who has presented a theory on Original Sin.
The Augustinian Theory. This is also called the Theory of Adam's Natural Headship and the Realistic Theory. The Augustinian Theory affirms that, by virtue of organic unity, the whole human race existed in Adam at the time of his transgression. It says that Adam's will was the will of the species, so that in Adam's free act, the will of the race revolted against God, and the nature of the race corrupted itself. All men existed as one moral person in Adam, so that in Adam's sin we sinned, we corrupted ourselves, and we brought guilt and merited condemnation upon ourselves.
1. The whole human race sinned in Adam when he sinned. Adam's will was the will of the race, so that all men sinned in Adam and rebelled with him when he sinned.
2. When Adam sinned, human nature was corrupted, so that now all men are born with a sinful nature.
3. This sinful nature is the fountain and direct cause of all of man's sins. Man sins by nature and cannot help but sin.
4. Because of Adam's transgression, all men are guilty, under the just "wrath and curse of God," and are liable to the "pains of hell forever."
5. Even newborn babies open their eyes in this world under the "wrath and curse" of God. They are guilty and condemned from the moment of their birth.
there is nothing in scripture that even comes close to this statement. No human being sins because Adam sinned, nor surely none inherit his sin or guilt.
Scripture never states that we are born with a sinful nature. What it does say is we are born mortal, and when we sin we are sinful. That makes our mortal nature sinful, not that we have a sin nature that is sinful.
Our mortal nature is the cause of our sinning. Sin is a choice, not an instinct as it is described.
Also not found anywhere in scripture. Because of the fall, if Christ does not correct the fall, there is no hell, so all men could not be condemned to hell.
Pure Augustinian, but nothing here of scripture. Man is born innocent but because of his mortal nature has a very strong propensity to sin. There is no text or context that even states that man is born a sinner.
Scripture never states that we are born with a sinful nature. What it does say is we are born mortal, and when we sin we are sinful. That makes our mortal nature sinful, not that we have a sin nature that is sinful.
Our mortal nature is the cause of our sinning. Sin is a choice, not an instinct as it is described.
Also not found anywhere in scripture. Because of the fall, if Christ does not correct the fall, there is no hell, so all men could not be condemned to hell.
Pure Augustinian, but nothing here of scripture. Man is born innocent but because of his mortal nature has a very strong propensity to sin. There is no text or context that even states that man is born a sinner.
That phrase is not used in the Bible. Here's what Paul states:
Rom 5:12 (NAS) Therefore, just as through one man (Adam) sin entered into the world, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men, because all sinned (in Adam)....
Through Adam, sin entered the human race. Sin (singular), the love of self (iniquity), polluted the human race within Adam. Since our life substance was in Adam when he transgressed, all Adam could pass pass to his posterity, through procreation, was a life polluted with iniquity.
As I have stated before, iniquity is not an act (as in transgression), but rather an condition. When Adam transgressed his nature took a u-turn from agape love to self-love. Because our lives are the multiplication of Adam's fallen life we are born in iniquity, i.e., we are born with self-love (not agape). Since we are born without God's Spirit dwelling in our spirit (i.e., our inner mind) our fallen nature and mind are naturally in harmony and we instantly sin.
King David, as an infant, is a good example:
"Behold, I (David) was brought forth in iniquity, And in sin (iniquity) my mother conceived me." Ps 51:5 (NAS)
As a result of the fall, man by very nature is spiritually “bent,” so that the driving force of his very nature is the love of self. Paul defines it as “the law of sin and death” [Romans 7:23; 8:2]. It is this condition that is the basis of all our sinning, and which makes us slaves to sin [Romans 3:9-12; 7:14].
Rom 5:12 (NAS) Therefore, just as through one man (Adam) sin entered into the world, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men, because all sinned (in Adam)....
Through Adam, sin entered the human race. Sin (singular), the love of self (iniquity), polluted the human race within Adam. Since our life substance was in Adam when he transgressed, all Adam could pass pass to his posterity, through procreation, was a life polluted with iniquity.
As I have stated before, iniquity is not an act (as in transgression), but rather an condition. When Adam transgressed his nature took a u-turn from agape love to self-love. Because our lives are the multiplication of Adam's fallen life we are born in iniquity, i.e., we are born with self-love (not agape). Since we are born without God's Spirit dwelling in our spirit (i.e., our inner mind) our fallen nature and mind are naturally in harmony and we instantly sin.
King David, as an infant, is a good example:
"Behold, I (David) was brought forth in iniquity, And in sin (iniquity) my mother conceived me." Ps 51:5 (NAS)
As a result of the fall, man by very nature is spiritually “bent,” so that the driving force of his very nature is the love of self. Paul defines it as “the law of sin and death” [Romans 7:23; 8:2]. It is this condition that is the basis of all our sinning, and which makes us slaves to sin [Romans 3:9-12; 7:14].
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M
have you even read the bible?
Ro 5:14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.
15 But not as the offence, so also is the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many.
16 And not as it was by one that sinned, so is the gift: for the judgment was by one to condemnation, but the free gift is of many offences unto justification.
17 For if by one man's offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.)
18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.
19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.
Ro 5:14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.
15 But not as the offence, so also is the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many.
16 And not as it was by one that sinned, so is the gift: for the judgment was by one to condemnation, but the free gift is of many offences unto justification.
17 For if by one man's offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.)
18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.
19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.
Adam was commanded by God not to eat of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. Adam's sin was a transgression because he broke a known command. Because of his sin the Holy Spirit vacated Adam's spirit (inner mind) and in this vacuum Satan filled it with the love of self (iniquity). This love of self also permeated his whole body (i.e., his members). So the very moment that Adam transgressed his humanity, which we all share in, became polluted with the love of self. This iniquity brought mortality (death) to the human race, not because we were born transgressors, but because all of us share in Adam's fallen life indwelt with iniquity.
On the other hand original sin states that we are born guilty of Adam's sin (transgression). This, of course, is ludicrous since guilt can't be transferred. As Ezekiel states, "The son will not share the guilt of the father, nor will the father share the guilt of the son. " (Ez 18:20 NIV)
Original sin is a heresy for it distorts Biblical truth. It also makes Christ a sinner for assuming Adam's fallen life. Therefore it attacks the gospel of Christ. Original sin is an attack upon the gospel itself and anyone who preaches it, according to Paul, is to be accursed of God. See Gal 1:9