Not By Works

[Stephen63]

So the Holy spirit doesn't chasten you of sin...,Jesus just lets the natural consequences of sin happen instead? Then eventually you realise on your own that you are being foolish and that sin is harmful?

He kinda left the door wide open as to how that happens, didn't he? What's left, but to do it yourself?

 

[Desertsrose]

Hi Desertsrose,

I believe in using biblical terms as well but also Jesus taught by using creation as an analogy. Jesus would say - "consider at the lilies of the fields, the birds of the air, consider how a seed grows in the ground....etc"

Paul said in Romans 1 that the invisible things of God can be clearly seen in what has been made. He said that God can be understood through what was made ( Rom. 1:20 )

I firmly believe in confessing sins - confess simply means to "agree with". I am in agreement to "confessing" everything that is contrary to the life of Christ but not to remain righteous.

I believe this false teaching that we need to confess sins "in order" to be righteous again ( which is based on a mis-application of 1 John 1:9 as John was dealing with the gnostic belief back then and addressing that belief) has done more harm to keep Christians from seeing the new creation in Christ and keep us in babyhood. It has diluted the work of the Lord Jesus Christ.

There are a few threads on 1 John 1:9 that speak to this subject. I realize that our traditional Christian teaching has perpetuated this belief that the Christian needs to confess to get righteousness back and to be cleansed again but it is 100% false in my opinion and scripturally can be proved to be inaccurate.

Ironically most bible teachers say that we shouldn't create a doctrine from one verse and yet that is what is done in 1 John 1:9. It is the blood of Jesus that cleanses us from all sin because we are in the light. A Christian doesn't go in and out of the light because Christ is in us and He is the light. 1 John 1:7

1 John 1:9 is the only place in the New Covenant where this "confessing in order to be to be cleansed from all unrighteousness" occurs and it is addressing the gnostic thought that they had no sin and thus they make God a liar. 1 John 1:10

1 John was written in about 96 AD. All of Paul's epistles are before that and there is absolutely no mention of this practice of Christians "confessing in order to get back righteousness and to stay cleansed".

Anyway - I know there are different religious beliefs about this subject but I can tell you that I have not confessed sins "in order to keep righteous" for years since I saw the truth of the new creation and Christ's work on the cross and resurrection - since then I have lived a godlier life than I ever imagined.

In the old "confessing in order to be righteous or cleansed again" days I was constantly stuck in a cycle of sin and confessing , sin and confessing - what a horrible life that was.

Now that I know the truth of Christ's work - I am finally free and the "sap" of His life - by the Holy Spirit within bears witness of this freedom and the sins of the past have dropped off like dead leaves on a tree

( Notice I didn't say that I don't confess sins because I do - but not to be righteous again or to be cleansed - for that I simply believe the gospel message in the gift of righteousness )

Hi Grace,

Confession and repentance cleanses us because we sinned. That sin is not righteous. The fact that we're declared righteous in Christ, when we sin it's sinful, dirty, ugly. It must be acknowledge as sin or we'll continue on in that sin because it's not being brought into the light. Sin is walking in darkness.

I don't need cleansing to become righteous and I've never heard that teaching and I've been in a few churches, not just one denomination. And even if some teach that, we don't throw the verse away because someone teaches it in error. God's word is precious and righteous.

Repentance brings us back into a right relationship with our Lord. There's something between us when we sin just like there's something between 2 people when they've done something against the other. Until they ask for forgiveness for the sin against them, there will always be a strained relationship.

That's how I feel when I have sinned against someone. I feel bad, I want to make amends, I want to ask for forgiveness and make it right with them. Because I love them and that's what love does.

And that's what John is teaching. Those who are walking in the light will bring their sinful deeds to the light so that they can continue on walking in the light. Stepping into darkness is stepping away from God in our heart. We end up leaving Him and His ways for awhile. We've gotten dirty and need to be washed up. Our actions have not been pure and we need to acknowledge our sin before Him.

In John, he's talking to, "my little children". Not gnostics. If fact all of the NT letters are written to believers.

I'm finding that it's becoming a habit of false teachers to continually take away the scriptures. Old Testament is now gone. Some go as far as to say that they only follow Paul. You have even said that Jesus' teachings are OT. And there are some false teachers that tell you not to bring your bible. I wonder why? Sounds like the enemy is afoot.

In Matthew 28, Jesus said that the apostles would preach the gospel of the kingdom. All of Jesus' teaching in the gospel writings are His teachings about how we are to live in the kingdom. And Jesus said that the apostles would go out into the world to make disciples, that they would baptize them in the name of the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit. And Jesus told them to teach the disciples to obey ALL of Jesus' teachings. ALL, not some, but all.

2 Timothy 3:16 All Scripture is inspired by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, for training in righteousness; so that the man of God may be adequate, equipped for every good work.

All scripture is inspired by God. Not just the NT, but All. And when Paul said this he was referring to the OT because there wasn't a NT yet.

Paul spoke of the need for cleansing.
2 Corinthians 7:1 Therefore, having these promises, beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from all defilement of flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God.

James does as well.
James 4:10 Draw near to God and He will draw near to you. Cleanse your hands, you sinners; and purify your hearts, you double-minded. Be miserable and mourn and weep; let your laughter be turned into mourning and your joy to gloom. Humble yourselves in the presence of the Lord, and He will exalt you.

I dont know Grace why you were stuck. I've always felt so pure after confessing and never felt stuck. And the bad that I felt when I saw that I sinned was freeing because it brought me right to the feet of Jesus. I went to the only one who would forgive me and had/has the power to change me from within. How can one feel stuck when they go before the Lord of all mercy and all grace?

And maybe you don't confess to be cleansed, but I do. Just as I get dirty in the natural when I work and sweat and get stinky, so it is spiritually as well. I get stinky when I've stepped into sin. A lie, a piece of gossip, an unkind word, wrongful judging, worrying about the cares of the world......whatever it might be, I get dirty and need a bath in the arms of God's redeeming love. That's one part of the manifold beauty of His grace.

 

[royalscot]

He kinda left the door wide open as to how that happens, didn't he? What's left, but to do it yourself?

that would depend ,on what covenant ,you think ,was a finish work. and what covenant, will never need a finished work.



15 Therefore he is the mediator of a new covenant, so that those who are called may receive the promised eternal inheritance, since a death has occurred that redeems them from the transgressions committed under the first covenant.


21 Is the law then contrary to the promises of God? Certainly not! For if a law had been given that could give life, then righteousness would indeed be by the law.22 But the Scripture imprisoned everything under sin, so that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to those who believe.




23 Now before faith came, we were held captive under the law, imprisoned until the coming faith would be revealed.24 So then, the law was our guardian until Christ came, in order that we might be justified by faith.25 But now that faith has come, we are no longer under a guardian,26 for in Christ Jesus you are all sons of God, through faith.27 For as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ.28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is no male and female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus.29 And if you are Christ's, then you are Abraham's offspring, heirs according to promise.Galatians 3

Originally Posted by Ariel82

So the Holy spirit doesn't chasten you of sin...,Jesus just lets the natural consequences of sin happen instead? Then eventually you realise on your own that you are being foolish and that sin is harmful?

 

[royalscot]

Hi Grace,

Confession and repentance cleanses us because we sinned. That sin is not righteous. The fact that we're declared righteous in Christ, when we sin it's sinful, dirty, ugly. It must be acknowledge as sin or we'll continue on in that sin because it's not being brought into the light. Sin is walking in darkness.

I don't need cleansing to become righteous and I've never heard that teaching and I've been in a few churches, not just one denomination. And even if some teach that, we don't throw the verse away because someone teaches it in error. God's word is precious and righteous.

Repentance brings us back into a right relationship with our Lord. There's something between us when we sin just like there's something between 2 people when they've done something against the other. Until they ask for forgiveness for the sin against them, there will always be a strained relationship.

That's how I feel when I have sinned against someone. I feel bad, I want to make amends, I want to ask for forgiveness and make it right with them. Because I love them and that's what love does.

And that's what John is teaching. Those who are walking in the light will bring their sinful deeds to the light so that they can continue on walking in the light. Stepping into darkness is stepping away from God in our heart. We end up leaving Him and His ways for awhile. We've gotten dirty and need to be washed up. Our actions have not been pure and we need to acknowledge our sin before Him.

In John, he's talking to, "my little children". Not gnostics. If fact all of the NT letters are written to believers.

I'm finding that it's becoming a habit of false teachers to continually take away the scriptures. Old Testament is now gone. Some go as far as to say that they only follow Paul. You have even said that Jesus' teachings are OT. And there are some false teachers that tell you not to bring your bible. I wonder why? Sounds like the enemy is afoot.

In Matthew 28, Jesus said that the apostles would preach the gospel of the kingdom. All of Jesus' teaching in the gospel writings are His teachings about how we are to live in the kingdom. And Jesus said that the apostles would go out into the world to make disciples, that they would baptize them in the name of the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit. And Jesus told them to teach the disciples to obey ALL of Jesus' teachings. ALL, not some, but all.

2 Timothy 3:16 All Scripture is inspired by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, for training in righteousness; so that the man of God may be adequate, equipped for every good work.

All scripture is inspired by God. Not just the NT, but All. And when Paul said this he was referring to the OT as well.

Paul spoke of the need for cleansing.
2 Corinthians 7:1 Therefore, having these promises, beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from all defilement of flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God.

James does as well.
James 4:10 Draw near to God and He will draw near to you. Cleanse your hands, you sinners; and purify your hearts, you double-minded. Be miserable and mourn and weep; let your laughter be turned into mourning and your joy to gloom. Humble yourselves in the presence of the Lord, and He will exalt you.

I dont know Grace why you were stuck. I've always felt so pure after confessing and never felt stuck. And the bad that I felt when I saw that I sinned was freeing because it brought me right to the feet of Jesus. I went to the only one who would forgive me and had/has the power to change me from within. How can one feel stuck when they go before the Lord of all mercy and all grace?

And maybe you don't confess to be cleansed, but I do. Just as I get dirty in the natural when I work and sweat and get stinky, so it is spiritually as well. I get stinky when I've stepped into sin. A lie, a piece of gossip, an unkind word, wrongful judging, worrying about the cares of the world......whatever it might be, I get dirty and need a bath in the arms of God's redeeming love. That's one part of the manifold beauty of His grace.

can you give a bible quote to back this up.

and what law are you to repent from. etc

14 For when Gentiles, who do not have the law, by nature do what the law requires, they are a law to themselves, even though they do not have the law Romans 2:

 

[stonesoffire]

I agree that the Holy spirit doesn't condemn you but He does tell you that you did wrong and than says what you should have done instead.

If you focus on the Holy spirit, it should be easy to see that the devil lies.

The law is just, your conscience is another way of saying the part of the mind that reveals how you break the law via the Holy spirit and why you need to go to God and repent.

It should not condemn you but remind you to run to God and be healed.

Conviction of the Holy spirit is two part..1 your sin, what you did wrong, 2. God's plan and what you should have done instead...often part 1 reveal spiritual strongholds that need to be torn down and part 2 shows good works God wants you to do in the future.

We should reject Satan's condemnation but we should listen to the holy spirit conviction and the rebuke of godly people God sends our way,

I think chastening is mean't to be by His Word, but I do know that Holy Spirit tells me when I say something or write something that is hurtful to some people. Goes back to motives of what we do or say. And is for our good as well as for others.

But, as you say...no condemnation or we would hide from the Lord.

 

[Stephen63]

Here is the full article so that we can see what this person is saying. I like to use this website from time to time as it has a place at the bottom where we can ask questions. I like that.


I have written elsewhere about the need for a new covenant definition of conviction, one that does not emphasize your badness but God’s goodness and grace.

But the simple fact is the Holy Spirit will never convict you of your sin. When you sin, your conscience may condemn you, the law will condemn you, the judge and jury may condemn you, the religious may condemn you, and the devil will certainly condemn you, but against the chorus of condemners stands the sweet Holy Spirit who defends you and draws you to grace.

The Holy Spirit’s conviction has nothing to do with your sin and everything to do with God’s grace. It’s not about the bad thing you’ve done but the good thing he wants to do in you right now.

Unquote:

Here is the website if people want to see the questions.

https://escapetoreality.org/2014/09/25/how-the-holy-spirit-convicts/

Here's the Bible if you want to find some real answers about it:

1 Timothy 5:20​

New Living Translation
Those who sin should be reprimanded in front of the whole church; this will serve as a strong warning to others.

English Standard Version
As for those who persist in sin, rebuke them in the presence of all, so that the rest may stand in fear.

New American Standard Bible
Those who continue in sin, rebuke in the presence of all, so that the rest also will be fearful of sinning.

2 Timothy 4:2
​

New Living Translation
Preach the word of God. Be prepared, whether the time is favorable or not. Patiently correct, rebuke, and encourage your people with good teaching.

English Standard Version
preach the word; be ready in season and out of season; reprove, rebuke, and exhort, with complete patience and teaching.


New American Standard Bible
preach the word; be ready in season and out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort, with great patience and instruction.

Titus 2:15
​

New Living Translation
You must teach these things and encourage the believers to do them. You have the authority to correct them when necessary, so don't let anyone disregard what you say.

English Standard Version
Declare these things; exhort and rebuke with all authority. Let no one disregard you.

New American Standard Bible
These things speak and exhort and reprove with all authority. Let no one disregard you.

Revelation 3:19
​

New Living Translation
I correct and discipline everyone I love. So be diligent and turn from your indifference.

English Standard Version
Those whom I love, I reprove and discipline, so be zealous and repent.

New American Standard Bible
'Those whom I love, I reprove and discipline; therefore be zealous and repent.

So, G777, God's servants are commanded to do these things by the authority of the Holy Ghost, but He can't convict us of our sins?

 

[Meggido]

That actually has a simple answer to it, Ariel.

1. Refining fire means having the heat applied to them, demanding change. Refining takes a lot out of them, stripping them of the worldly things they love.
2. As a result, they won't talk about something biblical that exposes their fruitlessness.

3. Such people want a "quick fix", because they're hooked on excitement instead of holiness.

Their doctrine is the "new" replacement doctrine..... replacing everything that demands change in a believer to something that's "easy" to believe, requiring nothing.

You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to Stephen63 again.


They do this also by proclaiming that God would never let his kings kids suffer, be tried, or go through anything....and is also how devotions end up int eh BDF about Job and how it was Job that caused his won issues...

 

[Meggido]

There is two types of righteousness.

Luther speaks of it...alien righteousness which is Christ imputed righteousness on us and our own proper righteousness which can only happen after we receive Christ righteousness.

However our proper righteousness is established by walking with the Holy spirit and learning to live godly lives.

It's an important part of becoming rootted in Christ and mature ....The milk is knowing our breastplare is Christ righteousness upon us..5he meat is learning how to have our own proper righteousness by walking with God and doing the good works He prepared for us to do.

Martin Luther: Two Kinds of Righteousness



What is this "sap" which you call the life of Christ in us?

It sounds too mystical.

Jesus does live in us through the Holy spirit.

We live our lives to glorify God.

The "sap" is the Holy spirit itself that teaches us. The holy spirit empowers us.

Being who God made us in Christ is totally different than telling people to BE CHRIST.

It's just too New Age. So if you could explain what you mean by "life of Christ in us" and how that is Biblical and how that works in a practical sense, that would be great.

There are actually 3 types of Righteousness found in the Bible.

1-Imputed/positional rightoeusness
2-Practical /behavioral rightouesness
3-Self righteousness

 

[J7]

So where are we in the discussion?

 

[JIMBO43]

This unfortunately is a prime example of things being done deceitfully to distort what is really being said. This is one of the main reasons I don't interact with people that continually exhibit this type of behavior.



This is what is always has been said about John 16:8-10

Notice the difference between the world ( they do not believe in Me ) and the believer ( You because I go to the father and He is our Advocate. 1 John 2:1 ) that Jesus is addressing here.

To the believer He reveals/convinces/expose that they are the righteousness of Christ because He went to the Father to stand as an Advocate.

John 16:8-10 (NASB)
[SUP]8 [/SUP] "And He, when He comes, will convict the world ( unbelievers ) concerning sin and righteousness and judgment;

[SUP]9 [/SUP] concerning sin, because they ( unbelievers ) do not believe in Me;

[SUP]10 [/SUP] and concerning righteousness, because I go to the Father and you ( believers ) no longer see Me;​

Its one thing to be rightouse its another to remain rightous as in being a profit.. some profits get scared and losse there faith to and dont act rightously... this is written in the bible too..

 

[JIMBO43]

So where are we in the discussion?

same as we allways are the pie eaters are having there fill and not giving..

 

[Magenta]

If you belonged to the world, it would love you as its own. As it is, you do not belong
to the world, but I have chosen you out of the world. That is why the world hates you.

 

[JIMBO43]

If you belonged to the world, it would love you as its own. As it is, you do not belong
to the world, but I have chosen you out of the world. That is why the world hates you.

who was he speaking to here ? was it all of us or some of us ?

 

[JIMBO43]

that would depend ,on what covenant ,you think ,was a finish work. and what covenant, will never need a finished work.



15 Therefore he is the mediator of a new covenant, so that those who are called may receive the promised eternal inheritance, since a death has occurred that redeems them from the transgressions committed under the first covenant.


21 Is the law then contrary to the promises of God? Certainly not! For if a law had been given that could give life, then righteousness would indeed be by the law.22 But the Scripture imprisoned everything under sin, so that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to those who believe.




23 Now before faith came, we were held captive under the law, imprisoned until the coming faith would be revealed.24 So then, the law was our guardian until Christ came, in order that we might be justified by faith.25 But now that faith has come, we are no longer under a guardian,26 for in Christ Jesus you are all sons of God, through faith.27 For as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ.28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is no male and female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus.29 And if you are Christ's, then you are Abraham's offspring, heirs according to promise.Galatians 3

Originally Posted by Ariel82

So the Holy spirit doesn't chasten you of sin...,Jesus just lets the natural consequences of sin happen instead? Then eventually you realise on your own that you are being foolish and that sin is harmful?

The law has never been our guardian you way of the mark,,, The father and the son where still both our guardian in the old t too...

 

[JIMBO43]

Here's the Bible if you want to find some real answers about it:

1 Timothy 5:20​

New Living Translation
Those who sin should be reprimanded in front of the whole church; this will serve as a strong warning to others.

English Standard Version
As for those who persist in sin, rebuke them in the presence of all, so that the rest may stand in fear.

New American Standard Bible
Those who continue in sin, rebuke in the presence of all, so that the rest also will be fearful of sinning.

2 Timothy 4:2
​

New Living Translation
Preach the word of God. Be prepared, whether the time is favorable or not. Patiently correct, rebuke, and encourage your people with good teaching.

English Standard Version
preach the word; be ready in season and out of season; reprove, rebuke, and exhort, with complete patience and teaching.


New American Standard Bible
preach the word; be ready in season and out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort, with great patience and instruction.

Titus 2:15
​

New Living Translation
You must teach these things and encourage the believers to do them. You have the authority to correct them when necessary, so don't let anyone disregard what you say.

English Standard Version
Declare these things; exhort and rebuke with all authority. Let no one disregard you.

New American Standard Bible
These things speak and exhort and reprove with all authority. Let no one disregard you.

Revelation 3:19
​

New Living Translation
I correct and discipline everyone I love. So be diligent and turn from your indifference.

English Standard Version
Those whom I love, I reprove and discipline, so be zealous and repent.

New American Standard Bible
'Those whom I love, I reprove and discipline; therefore be zealous and repent.

So, G777, God's servants are commanded to do these things by the authority of the Holy Ghost, but He can't convict us of our sins?

the trouble is stephen not everyone has the authority to rebuke someone in front of a whole church.. coz it could go horribly wrong...and you wouldnt want that in church would you ?

 

[JIMBO43]

Originally Posted by royalscot

revealed.24 So then, the law was our guardian until Christ came, in order that we might be justified by faith.25 But now that faith has come, we are no longer under a guardian,26 ....................


--------------------------------------------------

This is a better translation royalscot
[h=1]Galatians 3:24Amplified Bible (AMP)[/h] [SUP]24 [/SUP]with the result that the Law has become our tutor and our disciplinarian to guide us to Christ, so that we may be [SUP][a][/SUP]justified [that is, declared free of the guilt of sin and its penalty, and placed in right standing with God] by faith.

 

[Meggido]

let me jump in here- I think that when grace speaks of religion of being bad, he means, in my opinion, stuff like saying a believer has to be prefect, how if one does not tithe , they are going to hell, that if you don't believe in a pre-trib rapture you are going to hell, if you drink a beer, you are going to hell, if you are not winning souls for Christ, you have no salvation assured to you................... I could go on and on about some of the things that have come out of some pastors and churches that do nothing but shove folks away from Christ. that is non-biblical " religion ", and grace7 has not use for it ( I feel the same way ).

I can get behind you what you are trying to say here...and agree with the larger issue.

Jesus defined religion as a thief that comes to steal, kill and destroy....

If a grace pastor-teacher says it is not against the Bible to drink beer, wine and hard liquor and it will not send you to hell.... and in addition to this, the grace pastor-teacher actively drinks and that pastor-teacher is seen by congregation member 1 and congregation member 1 follows their pastor-teacher example and congregation member 1 starts drinking and then over time develops a problem and dependence on alcohol...and he hides the issue and the continued use of it becomes abusive to those around congregation member 1 and it steals his spirit, kills his relationships and destroys his life....

Who is responsible the outcome of congregation member 1?

Could one argue that grace was perverted in this example and a form of religion manifested to steal, kill and destroy someones life?

Therefore could perverted grace be a form of religion as bad as someone saying drinking any form or amount of alcohol wills end you to hell?


We need need be careful what we call religion/legalism in the church...

Saying certain things like drinking and not tithing sends you automatically to hell or that Jesus never drank alcoholic wine is religion/legalism...

Telling someone they should not get drunk with wine, because that leads to excess, but be filled with the Spirit.....is truth and grace, resulting in progressive-sanctification

I have seen first hand that people in the church that want to excuse their drunkenness/moderate to heavy drinking, yell religion and legalism....more social and responsible drinkers are harder to discern because and I add rightfully so, you did not even know they drank...

 

[Meggido]

P4t believes in the doctrine of election and that Jesus only died to forgive the sins of the elect. All does not mean all the world but only believers called from all nations of the world...

oh a predestined reformed Calvinist...thanks for the heads up...

 

[Magenta]

Jesus defined religion as a thief that comes to steal, kill and destroy....

I don't recall that Scripture...

 

[JIMBO43]

Originally Posted by royalscot

revealed.24 So then, the law was our guardian until Christ came, in order that we might be justified by faith.25 But now that faith has come, we are no longer under a guardian,26 ....................


--------------------------------------------------

This is a better translation royalscot
Galatians 3:24Amplified Bible (AMP)

[SUP]24 [/SUP]with the result that the Law has become our tutor and our disciplinarian to guide us to Christ, so that we may be [SUP][a][/SUP]justified [that is, declared free of the guilt of sin and its penalty, and placed in right standing with God] by faith.

from this scripture we can see there is no way you can come to christ without faith...