Rev 17, Who is the Woman? Jerusalem Vs Rome

[iamsoandso]

Oh My!I was speaking about the people who believe as the fellow you were answering. But I see you are in the same group.......I should not have interfered. So-Sad.

I will say this, Revelation did not happen in 70 AD...that was history. The real revelation of Jesus (The Unveiling of Jesus Christ) is Yet to come.

I suppose that you see it that way from the way you described Revelation 1:19 to MarcR in post #156 to most others things you have seen is past tense, things that are would be present tense to John(when he received the Revelation) and things that would be hereafter would be "future",,, that is arbitrary to John seeing the visions between ad64-96...

 

[garee]

Thus, the symbolism of Revelation proceeds along those lines of thought!.......And here it is proven in your post....

The symbolism reflects like a shadow the revelation of God that not only did he sent but also signified it ( it represents the unseen faith of God as a revelation to give us His spiritual understanding hid from natural man or the literalist in parables. As His prescription to us . It provides the 20/20 vision throughout the book .. it would seem that many would rather look through a glass, darkly?

Rev 1:1 The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and "signified" it by his angel unto his servant John:

 

[Nehemiah6]

I will say this, Revelation did not happen in 70 AD...that was history. The real revelation of Jesus (The Unveiling of Jesus Christ) is Yet to come.

You are absolutely right. One would have thought that Christians -- of all people -- would refuse to be deceived and deluded. But such is not the case.

 

[iamsoandso]

You are absolutely right. One would have thought that Christians -- of all people -- would refuse to be deceived and deluded. But such is not the case.

But of which is the new Jerusalem that descends down from heaven,are they the same as the one that was set up in 1948? which of the two do you say they are,or that it is?

 

[Katy-follower]

Good work Katy-Follower,
Yes it all began with the Treaty of Rome
The more you study the history of Christianity in Europe,
the Roman Empire and then the rebirth of Rome through the rise
Roman Christianity and the Papacy - explore our culture in icons and
religious artworks, literature, law, politics -
Europe and Christianity are quintessentially Roman civilization.
Even our alphabet are Latin letters.
And when people attempted to free themselves from this tyranny of the
Bishop of Rome they were slaughtered.

The Treaty of Rome, officially the Treaty establishing the European Economic
Community (TEEC), is an international agreement that led to the founding of the
European Economic Community (EEC) on 1 January 1958. It was signed on
25th March 1957 by Belgium, France, Italy, Luxembourg, the Netherlands and West Germany.

Our calendars also. July and August were additional months added, named after Julius & Augustus Caesar, both Roman emperors. Also, notice all the Roman architecture, particularly the Whitehouse.

Ultimately I believe it's the Jesuits that are at work behind the scenes, and the popes are just figure heads, although it's interesting that the latest pope is a Jesuit, which I think is a first.

A while ago I did some research on the Jesuits and how they've operated over the years, to protect the papacy. I forget where I read it now, but I was stunned that *supposedly* the main motivation for the catholic confession box was so they could blackmail influential people with all their juicy secrets, so they could climb the ladder through blackmail, then infiltrate, especially in higher places of influence, like governments, etc. So much to read on them and just scary what evil men are capable of. Though we have to remember we're in a spiritual battle, not flesh and blood. The Jesuit oath is alarming, if you google it "ripping up the wombs of women and crushing their infants' heads against walls". Some say the oath is a fake.

I think this is a very morbid start to my evening on CC

 

[Nehemiah6]

But of which is the new Jerusalem that descends down from heaven,are they the same as the one that was set up in 1948? which of the two do you say they are,or that it is?

I believe you are really confused. New Jerusalem descends from Heaven only AFTER the New Heavens and the New Earth are established (and that is a long ways down the road). And there is only ONE Heavenly City, New Jerusalem.

 

[prove-all]

We know the beast was the Roman empire, but now we have to see what happened
after the Rome was dealt a deadly wound, and the 10 kingdoms after to fill in history.
http://christianchat.com/bible-disc...ho-woman-jerusalem-vs-rome-7.html#post3491104

1 head of gold. Chaldean Empire. (626 BC-539 b.c)
2 breast and arms of silver Medo-Persian Empire (550-330 b.c.)
3 belly and thighs of brass greco-macedonia-Alexander the Great (336-323 b.c.)
4 the two legs of iron roman empire-capitals Rome and Constantinople.(31 b.c.-a.d. 476)

Revelation’s main focus is on the fourth of those four empires—the Roman Empire.
The 10 horns fill the gap in history from 476 to the return of Jesus Christ. Among

After the Roman Empire fell in 476, 10 succeeding governments were to grow out of it.
final one preceding the return of Jesus Christ and the beginning of the Kingdom of God.

Revelation 13, the Bible says this fourth beast was “wounded to death.”
The head that was wounded was that picturing the Roman Empire.

By the end of the fifth century, the Roman Empire appeared dead. It had lost most of its
territories in North Africa, the Middle East and Western Europe. Rome, the capital, had
been sacked by the Goths in a.d. 476. The empire’s economy was in ruin, its leadership
had been gutted, and it was commanded by foreigners. looked as “wounded to death.”

The destruction was inflicted by barbarian tribes from the north and east. Through the course
of the fifth century, Rome had been ruled, in sequence, by three different Germanic tribes.
These tribes didn’t just destroy Rome’s secular leadership; they also overthrew the bishop
of Rome and his religion.

The VANDALS A.D. 429-533
The HERULI,Odoacer’s government,A.D. 476-493
The OSTROGOTHS A.D. 493-554

They where not riden by the church, not of rome but in its territory.
The first three of the 10 horns on the fourth beast were “plucked up by the roots.”

When the Roman Empire was restored by Justinian in 554, the three barbarian kingdoms
that had ruled its territory since a.d. 476 were “uprooted” and never heard from again.

That left seven horns—seven resurrections of this world-ruling empire—to be dominated
by the little horn, the great false church. Thus, the Roman Empire became known as
the Holy Roman Empire. On that famous Christmas in a.d. 800, the pope crowned
Charlemagne “73rd emperor of the fourth world empire.”

The seven-headed beast in Revelation 17 specifically addresses the seven resurrections.
Since 554, there have been six resurrections of the Holy Roman Empire, leaving one more
to occur before the return of Jesus Christ.

(4th horn) a “little horn”—a great false church [or called a Woman in places],
coming on the scene after three horns are plucked up.
It took the image of the beast [ or government head and religion structure].
The great church guided every succeeding resurrection of this Roman Empire.
The last seven horns comprise [a church-state relationship],

When Justinian recognized the supremacy of the pope in 554, the Roman Empire was
revived. And because of its close association with the great false church, this empire
eventually assumed the name Holy Roman Empire. The joint quest to purge the land
of heretics and pagans helped to formalize the church-state partnership.

“The process of integration of church and state, begun by Constantine, continued
until the two became inseparable,” wrote Paul Johnson in A History of Christianity.
Emperor Justinian also restored the leadership of the Roman Catholic Church,
including the supreme authority of the pope.

The pope proclaimed the emperor as the one, true ruler of the Roman Empire, and
in turn the emperor defended the Roman Catholic religion from all outside threats.
Justinian’s laws enforced the spread of Catholicism within his realm, and “For the first time
in Roman history, the conversion of pagan kings became enshrined as a priority of state”

Emperor Justinian made this Imperial Restoration official in a.d. 554 with an edict known
as the Pragmatic Sanction. This edict restored all the lands the Ostrogoths had taken from
the Roman Catholic Church back to Vatican control.

It also returned to the pope and his Vatican hierarchy all the rights, powers and privileges
that they enjoyed before the barbarian invasions of Rome. Both halves of the empire were
now united. For the first time in history, the Roman Catholic Church was ruling over the state,
instead of the state controlling the church.

The deadly wound inflicted by the Goths was healed and the first resurrection of
the “Holy” Roman Empire had begun.

 

[prove-all]

1st resurrection of the roman empire
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Justinian_I

Under Justinian, an individual was either Catholic or a heathen.

Laws were created to destroy the heathen. One states, “Let those who do not accept
those doctrines cease to apply the name of true religion to their fraudulent belief;
and let them be branded with their open crimes, and, having been removed from the
threshold of all churches, be utterly excluded from them, as we forbid all heretics to
hold unlawful assemblies within cities. If, however, any seditious outbreak should be
attempted, we order them to be driven outside the walls of the city with relentless
violence, and we direct that all Catholic churches throughout the entire world shall
be placed under the control of the orthodox bishops who have embraced the Nicene Creed.”

The Bible describes this great false church as a whore—a prostitute (Revelation 17:1-5)

The Catholic Church was responsible for the death of millions during the Middle Ages.
The Crusades massacred whole cities in the Middle East. But the church killed thousands
in Europe too. Society was Catholic. To reject Catholicism was to reject society. Jews had
no rights. Those who converted away from Catholicism were put to death.

How were the “heretics” killed? Revelation 13:15 says this religious beast would “cause that
as many as would not worship the image of the beast should be killed.” It wouldn’t kill them
itself—it would “cause” them to be killed. This is exactly what the church did.

The Bible says this church looks like a lamb and speaks like a dragon (verse 11).
If the [true] church accused someone of heresy, it wouldn’t kill the man.
the woman, or church, of Revelation 17, who was “sitting upon a scarlet coloured beast,
full of names of blasphemy, having seven heads and ten horns”

The seven heads symbolize the seven dynasties or historic peaks of the Holy Roman Empire
“The 10 horns are 10 kings or nations comprising this empire at the time of its seventh stage.
seven heads represent: “The seven heads are seven mountains, on which the woman sitteth.”

In the Bible, a mountain is a symbol for a government. She sits on 7 hills, yes Rome has 7 hills ,
but this has more meaning. Picture 7 mountans [or hills] with valleys in-between them. Every
time the Holy Roman empire was at its peak in history[pictured top of mountain], and the time
the empire was not ruling Europe, this pictures the valleys in between the resurrections.

 

[prove-all]

Counting Justinian’s empire, there have been six major, historically documented
resurrections of the so-called Holy Roman Empire—all of which have been heavily
influenced by the Church.

The first head, or government, was Emperor Justinian and the Imperial Restoration of a.d. 554;
the second, Emperor Charlemagne and the Frankish Empire of a.d. 774; the third, Otto the Great
and the Holy Roman Empire in 962; the fourth, the Habsburg dynasty of the early 16th century;
the fifth, Napoleon’s kingdom in the early 19th century; the sixth, the German-Italian axis
ultimately responsible for World War ii.

2nd resurrection - Charlemagne crowned by the pope in 800AD.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charlemagne

Charlemagne reached the height of his power in 800 when he was crowned "emperor"
by Pope Leo III on Christmas Day at Old St. Peter's Basilica.
Called the "Father of Europe", Charlemagne united most of Western Europe
for the first time since the Roman Empire.

3rd resurrection - Otto the Great crowned by the pope in 962AD.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Otto_I,_Holy_Roman_Emperor
Otto I (23 November 912 – 7 May 973), also known as Otto the Great, was German king
from 936 and emperor of the Holy Roman Empire from 962 until his death in 973.

Following the example of Charlemagne's coronation as "Emperor of the Romans"
in 800, Otto was crowned Emperor in 962 by Pope John XII in Rome.

4th resurrection - Charles V crowned by the pope in 1520AD.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charles_V,_Holy_Roman_Emperor

5th resurrection - Napoleon crowned by the pope in 1805
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Napoleon_I
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coronation_of_Napoleon_I

In 1814, 1,260 years after its “deadly wound” was healed,
the “HOLY ROMAN EMPIRE” was dissolved.

6th resurrection - Hitler/Mussolini empowered by Pope Pius XII.
When Benito Mussolini became the Italian leader before World War ii,
he called his regime the Holy Roman Empire
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Benito_Mussolini

As Benito Mussolini’s grip on Italy tightened during the 1920s,
he proclaimed the Holy Roman Empire restored.

In February 1929, Mussolini signed a pact with the Vatican,
making Roman Catholicism the only recognized religion in fascist Italy.
This agreement, known as the Lateran Treaty, delighted Pope Pius xi,
who spoke of Mussolini as “a man sent by Providence.”
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lateran_Treaty

The agreements included a political treaty which created the state of the Vatican City
and guaranteed full and independent sovereignty to the Holy See.
Mussolini commissioned the Via della Conciliazione (Road of the Conciliation),
which would symbolically link the Vatican City to the heart of Rome.

The Roman Empire is represented by the legs of iron on the great image of Daniel 2.
But the feet and the toes of this image were made up of iron and clay (Daniel 2:41).
This represents 10 contemporaneous kings that will unite together in this end time to resurrect
the Holy Roman Empire one final time! It will be short-lived because iron cannot mix with clay.

7th resurrection - forming in Europe now.

Nevertheless, while it lasts, it will have the strength of iron! The 10 toes in Daniel 2 refer to
the nations within a united Europe. Daniel continues: “And in the days of these kings shall
the God of heaven set up a kingdom, which shall never be destroyed …” (verse 44).

 

[prove-all]

Daniel 7:24-25. Here God is talking about the “little horn,” the Catholic Church.

“And he shall speak great words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the
most High, and think to change times and laws: and they shall be given into his hand until
a time and times and the dividing of time.”


One dramatic measure of the Catholic religion’s global influence is its control over the definition
and measurement of time itself. Even today, though the presence of Catholicism doesn’t seem as
ubiquitous as it once was, we continue to live by a calendar largely created by the popes of old:

the Gregorian calendar—named after Pope Gregory xiii. That calendar revolves around fixing
the date of Easter in line with the spring equinox, ensuring that the Catholic’s pagan festivals
fall at the right time relative to Earth’s revolution around the sun.

This calendar is based on the Julian calendar, the Roman calendar established in 45 b.c. by Julius
Caesar. He chose the names and lengths of the months that we still use today (except July and
August, which were renamed after Julius and Augustus). But the Julian calendar was later altered
by the Vatican. God actually prophesied that the Catholic Church would change time itself!


What is the Catholic Church’s motive for changing the way mankind measures time?
It is an attempt to destroy—by removing from mankind’s memory—the knowledge
about God’s true holy days and the Sabbath.

the Roman Catholic Church have their own version of the Ten Com.
Is There Idolatry In The Roman Catholic Church?

They deleted the second Commandment and changed God's Sabbath to Sunday
and split the tenth Commandment into two to get back to Ten Commandments.



The Lord has done what He purposed; He has fulfilled His word Which He commanded in days
of old. He has thrown down and has not pitied, And He has caused an enemy to rejoice over you;
He has exalted the horn of your adversaries.

 

[prove-all]

Nicolaitans

The root of the word Nicolaitans comes from Greek nikao, to conquer or overcome,
and laos, which means people and which the word laity comes from.

The two words together especially means the destruction of the people and refers
to the earliest form of what we call a priestly order or clergy which later on in
church history divided people and allowed for leadership other than those led
by the spirit of the risen Lord.

A good translation of Nicolaitan would be "those who prevail over the people."

This clerical system later developed into [the papal hierarchy of priests]
and clergy lording over the flock.

The Council of Trent stated, "If anyone shall say that there is not in
the Catholic Church a hierarchy established by the divine ordination,
consisting of bishops, presbyters and ministers, let him be anathema."

It is not the question of the ministries but rather in the separation of them into
a hierarchy over the people. This very idea was taken over by the Protestants
with their own corruption of leadership roles and coverings.

The Church of Ephesus was commended for hating the deeds of the Nicolaitans.
The wrong separation of the clergy from the laity is a great evil in God's sight
and He hates the lust for religious power over others.


There is an ungodly spiritual authority in the Church today, which is nothing more than
the prideful spirit of control, manipulation, domination and intimidation and a rebellion
of the rightful authority of God. The standard mega pulpit preacher today, any clerical
leader or papal type ruling body and many televangelists are treated as royalty and
often are swimming in materialistic pleasures. You will know them by their fruits.

 

[prove-all]

And upon her forehead was a name written, MYSTERY, BABYLON THE GREAT,
THE MOTHER OF HARLOTS AND ABOMINATIONS OF THE EARTH.

the 47th chapter of Isaiah: “Come down, and sit in the dust, O virgin daughter of Babylon,
sit on the ground: there is no throne, O daughter of the Chaldeans: for thou shalt no more
be called tender and delicate. … And thou saidst, I shall be a lady for ever: so that thou
didst not lay these things to thy heart, neither didst remember the latter end of it.

Therefore hear now this, thou that art given to pleasures, that dwellest carelessly,
that sayest in thine heart, I am, and none else beside me; I shall not sit as a widow,
neither shall I know the loss of children” (verses 1, 7-8).

Here God prophesied that the Catholic Church would experience a great rebellion against
her evil deeds—and then, in the very end time, would bring those daughters back under
her direction; she would not “know the loss of children.”

The Protestant Reformation was a rebellion against Catholicism. Today, however, the
Protestants are in the process of being reunited with the Catholic Church under the pope’s rule.

The draft statement, the first issued by the International Anglican-Roman Catholic
Commission for Unity and Mission, is sure to generate more controversy. Indeed,
biblical prophecy indicates that full unity will not be achieved purely voluntarily.

At a certain point, the mother church will abandon its efforts to woo her daughters back
by flatteries and instead revert to the age-old method of preserving “Christian” unity by
exerting physical force.

However, thankfully, God says the Roman Catholic Church will again suffer the loss of
children “in a moment” (verse 9). Then Jesus Christ is going to rule the Earth.
Time is accelerating quickly, and all of this will happen in a moment.


Revelation 18:4
And I heard another voice from heaven, saying, Come out of her, my people,
that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues.

 

[Waggles]

Revelation chapter 18 - judgment

2 And he cried mightily with a strong voice, saying, Babylon the great is fallen, is fallen,
and is become the habitation of devils, and the hold of every foul spirit, and a cage of every
unclean and hateful bird.
5 For her sins have reached unto heaven, and God has remembered her iniquities.
6 Reward her even as she rewarded you, and double unto her double according to her works:
in the cup which she has filled fill to her double.
7 How much she has glorified herself, and lived deliciously, so much torment and sorrow
give her: for she said in her heart, I sit a queen, and am no widow, and shall see no sorrow.
8 Therefore shall her plagues come in one day, death, and mourning, and famine;
and she shall be utterly burned with fire: for strong is the Lord God who judges her.
10 Standing afar off for the fear of her torment, saying, Alas, alas, that great city Babylon,
that mighty city! for in one hour is thy judgment come.
11 And the merchants of the earth shall weep and mourn over her; for no man buys their
merchandise any more:
20 Rejoice over her, thou heaven, and ye holy apostles and prophets;
for God hath avenged you on her.
21 And a mighty angel took up a stone like a great millstone, and cast it into the sea, saying,
Thus with violence shall that great city Babylon be thrown down,
and shall be found no more at all.
Revelation 18:

Clearly Rome and her destruction most likely by nuclear bomb.
Russia versus NATO ??
verse 21 and shall be found no more at all - is not Jerusalem as Jerusalem will always be
given that she is Mount Zion
The irony here is that the RCC has again through blasphemy usurped the title of
Jerusalem and applied it to Rome the Eternal City. Yet God shall destroy Rome
for evermore just like the original Babylon.

 

[iamsoandso]

I believe you are really confused. New Jerusalem descends from Heaven only AFTER the New Heavens and the New Earth are established (and that is a long ways down the road). And there is only ONE Heavenly City, New Jerusalem.

lol, well I'm relieved to see that we agree that it is not the new Jerusalem being set up on earth(I don't think so either). You did not say though what you think the state of Israel that was set up in 1948 is though(what do you see it as if anything)?

 

[abcdef]

You have not established where John changes the identity of the great city, quoting a few mashed together verses and conjecture proves nothing.

Brother Locutus,

Thanks for making me study! Thank you for your great thought provoking viewpoints!

On this point, of the identity of "that great city", Rev 17:3 clearly states that John is taken to the wilderness. He was in heaven, but now is taken to the wilderness to the "seat of the beast". The beast is the iron legs Rome.

This changes the over all scene that is being shown.

So the the identity of the city of the harlot being Rome could be, because the city is in the wilderness v 3. Jerusalem is not in the wilderness of Rome.

--

An example of a woman being in the wilderness is shown in Rev 12:13-17. She is in the wilderness after Jerusalem is destroyed.

This woman is Israel in Rev 12, and is seen in the wilderness after 70 ad, that would mean,

if this harlot was Jerusalem (Rev 17), and John sees her in the wilderness, then that would place the writing of the Revelation after 70 ad.....Placing the woman of Rev 17, in the wilderness after 70 ad.,

Jerusalem did not exist after 70 ad, therefore the harlot in the wilderness could not be the 70 ad Jerusalem, unless the Rev was written after 70 ad.
--
You can't have the woman of ch 12 in the wilderness after 70 ad., and then say that the woman of ch 17 is in the wilderness before 70 ad.

When is the woman in the wilderness? ch 12 after the 70 ad destruction, when Jerusalem was desolated. So the woman of ch 17 is shown in the wilderness after 70 ad and cannot be the 70 ad Jerusalem.

If you say that the ch 17 woman is Jerusalem in the wilderness before 70 ad, it contradicts the ch 12 woman who is in the wilderness after 70 ad.

Which is it? Is the woman of ch 17 in the wilderness before or after 70 ad? Rev 12 says after.

---

Due to the change in the scene of John being taken to the wilderness, and the conflict with the timing of the woman being in the wilderness, on this one point, I have to think that it is still Rome. Because the woman is in the wilderness of Rome after 70 ad.

As far as "that great city" being Jerusalem exclusively, I still have doubts, and will express them as time goes by. Scriptural consistency is on your side.

Rev 17:9 “Here is the mind which has wisdom. The seven heads are seven mountains on which the woman sits,

What we have is the woman Bablyon aka 1st century Jerusalem "sitting" on, i.e be upheld by the seven mountains:

Rome held power over Jerusalem, so if the harlot was Jerusalem, the beast would be shown over her.

If the harlot was the false Caesar worship of Rome, then the religion of Antichrist Caesar worship would be dominating the beast Roman Empire.

Rev 17:10 and they are seven kings; five have fallen, one is, the other has not yet come; and when he comes, he must remain a little while.

The harlot woman exists during the time of the 10 kings Rev 17:16. If the woman is 70 ad Jerusalem, how is this possible?

In his book "Revelation To John" Stephen Smalley says "The woman in 17: 3 is closely associated with the beast (mounted on it), but not equated with it."

I would agree with this, to a certain point.

Here is a question. Does the woman leave the seat of the beast? If Jerusalem is destroyed in 70 ad., does the life of the woman end or keep going? Does that end the Roman Empire seat of the beast? or does the seat of the beast exist after 70 ad?

Therefore the woman (aka Babylon - 1st century AD Jerusalem) is not the beast,

Rome is the beast. The woman of creation worship that started at the tower of Babylon continues to this day. So the woman is older than Jerusalem, she only is seated on the Roman beast at the time of the writing and for a time after.

the woman rides on the beast. Babylon is "seated" on the seven hills. The seven hills equal the beast.

Yes, does Jerusalem control Rome? Or does Rome control Jerusalem?

And you can't escape the fact the woman is judged for killing the prophets which according to Jesus would fall on 1st century AD Jerusalem:

Mat 23:35 so that upon you may fall the guilt of all the righteous blood shed on earth, from the blood of righteous Abel to the blood of Zechariah, the son of Berechiah, whom you murdered between the temple and the altar.

Mat 23:36 “Truly I say to you, all these things will come upon this generation.

These are spoken of 70 ad Jerusalem, yes. But if the Rev was written after 70 ad, then Jerusalem didn't exist and the Roman beast would be the focus of the passages in Rev related to the city and the beast.

This a major contradiction in futurist "theologies", that of trying to shift the guilt from Jerusalem to another great city.

Oh, There is plenty of guilt to go around, ha ha. After all, the Romans were guilty of the death of Jesus also. The death of prophets and saints also.

So writing after 70 ad., the chief enemy would be Rome. 20 years or so maybe after Jerusalem was long gone. Rome killing apostles and saints.

Good luck with your ABmillennialism...

Wow, now I get a theory named after me, ABmillennialism! Ha Ha!

----

Broth Locutus,

You and your Jerusalem team are so good, I'm awarding you 100 points and a bag of doggy treats. For da wittle poochie puppy! Awwww.

 

[Bladerunner]

I suppose that you see it that way from the way you described Revelation 1:19 to MarcR in post #156 to most others things you have seen is past tense, things that are would be present tense to John(when he received the Revelation) and things that would be hereafter would be "future",,, that is arbitrary to John seeing the visions between ad64-96...

OK, lets have a go at it...... In Rev 1:19...Jesus is telling John to "the things which thou hast seen". Yes. it is past tense as He ( (John) just got through seeing these things in Heaven including Jesus Himself.

Yes, "the things which are", as Jesus is talking about the Seven Churches that He was sending letters to..These churches were real and in the same PRESENT tense (time Period) that John was......

This was no Vision....or Dream....John saw, felt, heard these things in Heaven...You cannot do that in a vision as Daniel's vision of a giant statue made out of 5 different types of metal shows us.

Now if John in you words sees a vision between 64 and 96 AD, Jesus can certainly transport His spirit into heaven for the past, present and the far future.

Do you not agree to these statements?????

Blessings,

Blade

 

[Bladerunner]

The symbolism reflects like a shadow the revelation of God that not only did he sent but also signified it ( it represents the unseen faith of God as a revelation to give us His spiritual understanding hid from natural man or the literalist in parables. As His prescription to us . It provides the 20/20 vision throughout the book .. it would seem that many would rather look through a glass, darkly?

Rev 1:1 The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and "signified" it by his angel unto his servant John:

Yes, every one of those items that are signified, is describe to us by Jesus in Revelation?

(i.e. The Seven Golden Lampstands (Rev 1:13) equal the Seven Churches (Rev 1:20)

 

[iamsoandso]

OK, lets have a go at it...... In Rev 1:19...Jesus is telling John to "the things which thou hast seen". Yes. it is past tense as He ( (John) just got through seeing these things in Heaven including Jesus Himself.

Yes, "the things which are", as Jesus is talking about the Seven Churches that He was sending letters to..These churches were real and in the same PRESENT tense (time Period) that John was......

This was no Vision....or Dream....John saw, felt, heard these things in Heaven...You cannot do that in a vision as Daniel's vision of a giant statue made out of 5 different types of metal shows us.

Now if John in you words sees a vision between 64 and 96 AD, Jesus can certainly transport His spirit into heaven for the past, present and the far future.

Do you not agree to these statements?????

Blessings,

Blade

You keep saying "in heaven" In Revelation 1:9 John says "Patmos" and that he head a voice behind him, Revelation 1:10 where are you seeing that he was in heaven?

 

[Bladerunner]

But of which is the new Jerusalem that descends down from heaven,are they the same as the one that was set up in 1948? which of the two do you say they are,or that it is?

What do you mean New Jerusalem (setup in 1948)....?????????????????????/

From 1517 until 1917, the Ottoman (Turks) Empire had control of the territory of Israel, Syria, Iraq, parts of Persia, and Turkey. During WWI, the Ottoman (Turks) Empire had taken the WRONG side and lost their empire including soon to be Israel including Jerusalem in 1917. (as Rabbi Ben Samuel had prophesied in 1217)

From the time from 1917 to 1948, The land (Israel pre-1967 borders) were given back to the Jewish people. However, Jerusalem was considered a No-Mans Land (as Rabbi Ben Samuel had prophesied in 1217) for another 50 years (0ne Jubilee). Jerusalem was occupied by Muslims (not Ruled) until 1967 when Israeli (IDF) forces won it back.

Now having said all of the above just to prove there was still a Jerusalem in 1917, 1948 and 1967, what are you trying say??????

 

[Bladerunner]

Our calendars also. July and August were additional months added, named after Julius & Augustus Caesar, both Roman emperors. Also, notice all the Roman architecture, particularly the Whitehouse.

Ultimately I believe it's the Jesuits that are at work behind the scenes, and the popes are just figure heads, although it's interesting that the latest pope is a Jesuit, which I think is a first.

A while ago I did some research on the Jesuits and how they've operated over the years, to protect the papacy. I forget where I read it now, but I was stunned that *supposedly* the main motivation for the catholic confession box was so they could blackmail influential people with all their juicy secrets, so they could climb the ladder through blackmail, then infiltrate, especially in higher places of influence, like governments, etc. So much to read on them and just scary what evil men are capable of. Though we have to remember we're in a spiritual battle, not flesh and blood. The Jesuit oath is alarming, if you google it "ripping up the wombs of women and crushing their infants' heads against walls". Some say the oath is a fake.

I think this is a very morbid start to my evening on CC

I believe our Calendar to day is the Gregorian Calendar??????