Rev 17, Who is the Woman? Jerusalem Vs Rome

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Katy-follower

Senior Member
Jun 25, 2011
2,696
117
63
Since you're all posting pics here, thought you might be interested in this....

Arsene Heitz, who designed the European Union flag, said that his inspiration was the crown of twelve stars, of the woman of the apocalypse. Being a catholic he believes Mary is the woman mentioned in Revelation 12 (we know it's actually Israel, not Mary).....

mary1.jpg

mary2.jpg


 

Waggles

Senior Member
Sep 21, 2017
1,896
242
63
South Australia
adelaiderevival.com
Good work Katy-Follower,
Yes it all began with the Treaty of Rome
The more you study the history of Christianity in Europe,
the Roman Empire and then the rebirth of Rome through the rise
Roman Christianity and the Papacy - explore our culture in icons and
religious artworks, literature, law, politics -
Europe and Christianity are quintessentially Roman civilization.
Even our alphabet are Latin letters.
And when people attempted to free themselves from this tyranny of the
Bishop of Rome they were slaughtered.

The Treaty of Rome, officially the Treaty establishing the European Economic
Community (TEEC), is an international agreement that led to the founding of the
European Economic Community (EEC) on 1 January 1958. It was signed on
25th March 1957 by Belgium, France, Italy, Luxembourg, the Netherlands and West Germany.
 

abcdef

Senior Member
Mar 30, 2016
2,470
34
48
Revelation 17:7-18,,,

vrs 8 "shall ascend out of" ,so wasn't present but was coming...

vrs.10 "not yet come" so the 7th was future,had not yet come...

vrs. 12 "received no kingdom as yet" so would in the future...

So from the time that Revelation 17 was written all of these things were not past or present they were all "future tense" in the mind of the angel who is showing this to John. So from the time this was shown to John when did the 7th come,the 8th, and the ten? Remember that the 10 ae who is to burn her with fire,ect. vrs. 16...
Brother iam,

We know that the beast is Rome, as shown in the iron legs of the statue in Dan. 2, and the 4th beast of Dan 7. But not the Empire it's self, only the time that the Roman beast has power over Israel.

----

Rev 17:8, "The beast that thou sawest was, and is not, and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition:"

This describes the entire time of the beast's power over Israel. 63 bc until Israel is restored to Jerusalem. (1967, in my opinion)

Was.... At the time of this writing (64 ad- 96 ad approx) the Roman Empire had already had power over Israel for 100 years.

Is not.....Sometime during the time that Rome rules over Israel, the beast nation will cease to be. We know the this is a Roman beast nation, so sometime, the nation will change form (die).

Shall ascend out of the bottomless pit.....The nation returns, to continue it's rule over Israel.

Go into perdition....spiritual, 2nd death.

------

We know that the iron legs/toes nation of the statue are continual to the end. So this transition of the nation that goes into the pit, and then comes out of the pit, diminishes the power over Israel, but does not end it. That is, the nation changes form from the original, but the original returns.

In my opinion, this shows the fall of the Roman Empire in 476 ad, the exile of the Bishop of Rome (BoR) from Rome during the dark and middle ages (the 10 horns burn her), until 1929 when the Vatican became a nation again in the same spot, and the Antichrist returned to sit on the seat of the beast.

The original Roman Empire deteriorated into iron and clay, Roman and non-Roman nations. When the Empire died in 476, it divided into the 10 toes, 10 is the number of complete division it is not literal.

In 1929 the Roman Empire returned, the beast crawled out of the abyss. But it remains divided among the nations, as the clay in the statue shows. The toes get smaller and come to an end when Israel is restored to Jerusalem. The iron/clay toes/horns end when the times of the gentiles end. This does not mean that the toe nations end, only that their power over Israel ends.

Perdition. This is the stone striking. The Antichrist/beast is destroyed by the brightness of His coming. So the beast/Antichrist Roman nation will still exist when the stone strikes, he can't be destroyed before that.

So during the time of the iron legs toes, the Roman beast nation must die, be divided, return, and be destroyed when Jesus comes for the kingdom (7th trumpet). Changing form, diminishing, but still with power over Israel until the toes end and the stone strikes.

=======================

The 7 heads are the lifetime of the Roman beast Empire nation. When the 7th head dies, the Roman Empire beast dies 476 ad. and divides. It ceases to be, but still exists in an image empire, continuing the iron.

So the beast empire dies when it changes form to become completely divided, but that part of the beast empire only.

The 8th head begins with Caesar/pagan worship, continues, and lasts from 476 ad until the coming of Jesus for the kingdom when the stone strikes.

This 8th head can ONLY be the Vatican and the BoR, Caesar and Caesar worship continued from the Roman Empire.
 

abcdef

Senior Member
Mar 30, 2016
2,470
34
48
Actually, it does show a gap abcdef. The previous ruling kingdom (Rome) is represented by legs made of all iron. Where the coming ten-toed kingdom is an extension or revived kingdom, mixed with iron and partly baked clay. We are told right in the scripture that the iron and clay represents a mixture of people and will therefore not have the same strength that it did when it was all iron.
Brother Ahwatukee,

Dan 2:41, "..., the kingdom shall be divided; but there shall be in it of the strength of the iron, ...".

So where is the gap? The iron divides, but does not end. The Roman Empire dies, but does not end at the toes division.

---

This is one place that pretrib has a problem, there is no gap. In order for pretrib to show a gap, it would have to be from Jesus until a time that has not come yet, the rapt/resur. 1900 years.

You believe that the woman in Rev 17 is an extension of the Roman Empire, the RCC, what is the lifetime of that woman? From the tower of Babel until she is destroyed in her last manifestation as the Roman beast.

Where is this time period shown in the statue of Dan 2? If the Roman iron Antichrist nation exists continually for the time of the iron, up until these present times, who else could it be?

==

But then, that means that the Antichrist is already revealed as Caesar and the BoR. And he has been here all this time.

That would make the rule of the Antichrist over Israel, more than 3 1/2 literal years, it would make the time 1900 years, which is what the time is, approx.

The first 3 1/2 times is from Babylon until the scattering of 70 ad. Daniel 12:6-7.

The second 3 1/2 times is from 70 ad until Jerusalem was restored to Israel at the end of the ToG's.

This 7 times period is the same time as the statue in Daniel 2. From Babylon until Israel is restored to military control of Jerusalem, ending the iron and clay toes.

----

I have looked for a gap in the 4th beast, the sea/earth beast, and the scarlet beast, but haven't seen any so far.
 

garee

Senior Member
Mar 28, 2016
5,559
116
63
Brother iam,

We know that the beast is Rome, as shown in the iron legs of the statue in Dan. 2, and the 4th beast of Dan 7. But not the Empire it's self, only the time that the Roman beast has power over Israel.

----

Rev 17:8, "The beast that thou sawest was, and is not, and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition:"

This describes the entire time of the beast's power over Israel. 63 bc until Israel is restored to Jerusalem. (1967, in my opinion)

Was.... At the time of this writing (64 ad- 96 ad approx) the Roman Empire had already had power over Israel for 100 years.

Is not.....Sometime during the time that Rome rules over Israel, the beast nation will cease to be. We know the this is a Roman beast nation, so sometime, the nation will change form (die).

Shall ascend out of the bottomless pit.....The nation returns, to continue it's rule over Israel.

Go into perdition....spiritual, 2nd death.

------

We know that the iron legs/toes nation of the statue are continual to the end. So this transition of the nation that goes into the pit, and then comes out of the pit, diminishes the power over Israel, but does not end it. That is, the nation changes form from the original, but the original returns.

In my opinion, this shows the fall of the Roman Empire in 476 ad, the exile of the Bishop of Rome (BoR) from Rome during the dark and middle ages (the 10 horns burn her), until 1929 when the Vatican became a nation again in the same spot, and the Antichrist returned to sit on the seat of the beast.

The original Roman Empire deteriorated into iron and clay, Roman and non-Roman nations. When the Empire died in 476, it divided into the 10 toes, 10 is the number of complete division it is not literal.

In 1929 the Roman Empire returned, the beast crawled out of the abyss. But it remains divided among the nations, as the clay in the statue shows. The toes get smaller and come to an end when Israel is restored to Jerusalem. The iron/clay toes/horns end when the times of the gentiles end. This does not mean that the toe nations end, only that their power over Israel ends.

Perdition. This is the stone striking. The Antichrist/beast is destroyed by the brightness of His coming. So the beast/Antichrist Roman nation will still exist when the stone strikes, he can't be destroyed before that.

So during the time of the iron legs toes, the Roman beast nation must die, be divided, return, and be destroyed when Jesus comes for the kingdom (7th trumpet). Changing form, diminishing, but still with power over Israel until the toes end and the stone strikes.

=======================

The 7 heads are the lifetime of the Roman beast Empire nation. When the 7th head dies, the Roman Empire beast dies 476 ad. and divides. It ceases to be, but still exists in an image empire, continuing the iron.

So the beast empire dies when it changes form to become completely divided, but that part of the beast empire only.

The 8th head begins with Caesar/pagan worship, continues, and lasts from 476 ad until the coming of Jesus for the kingdom when the stone strikes.

This 8th head can ONLY be the Vatican and the BoR, Caesar and Caesar worship continued from the Roman Empire.
There is no concern for the political nations of the world the concern is the gospel ..

The beast as Satan the antichrist (one) is the father of the antichrists (many)also called the father of lies.She as a whore is called the strange woman or the queen of heaven she is makes up all the kingdoms as denominations of this world in respect to those who do not have the Spirit of Christ.

She was here even before the Roman Catholic denomination even were thought of . Their Roman Catholic sect is not listed in the scripture. They are a carbon copy of the Pharisees with Sadducees.Four birds of a feather

1Jo 4:2 Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God:
1Jo 4:3 And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.

Again even before the Catholic sect was established

The beast is not in respect to the Roman nation she could be one but the head is the God of this world The antichrist .It applies to any people to include the jews that do not acknowledge Christ has come in the flesh for a one time demonstration.using a temporal body of flesh in which the Son of man declared it does not profit as if God was a man to begin with ..
 

iamsoandso

Senior Member
Oct 6, 2011
3,194
34
48
Brother iam,

We know that the beast is Rome, as shown in the iron legs of the statue in Dan. 2, and the 4th beast of Dan 7. But not the Empire it's self, only the time that the Roman beast has power over Israel.

----

Rev 17:8, "The beast that thou sawest was, and is not, and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition:"

This describes the entire time of the beast's power over Israel. 63 bc until Israel is restored to Jerusalem. (1967, in my opinion)

Was.... At the time of this writing (64 ad- 96 ad approx) the Roman Empire had already had power over Israel for 100 years.

Is not.....Sometime during the time that Rome rules over Israel, the beast nation will cease to be. We know the this is a Roman beast nation, so sometime, the nation will change form (die).

Shall ascend out of the bottomless pit.....The nation returns, to continue it's rule over Israel.

Go into perdition....spiritual, 2nd death.

------

We know that the iron legs/toes nation of the statue are continual to the end. So this transition of the nation that goes into the pit, and then comes out of the pit, diminishes the power over Israel, but does not end it. That is, the nation changes form from the original, but the original returns.

In my opinion, this shows the fall of the Roman Empire in 476 ad, the exile of the Bishop of Rome (BoR) from Rome during the dark and middle ages (the 10 horns burn her), until 1929 when the Vatican became a nation again in the same spot, and the Antichrist returned to sit on the seat of the beast.

The original Roman Empire deteriorated into iron and clay, Roman and non-Roman nations. When the Empire died in 476, it divided into the 10 toes, 10 is the number of complete division it is not literal.

In 1929 the Roman Empire returned, the beast crawled out of the abyss. But it remains divided among the nations, as the clay in the statue shows. The toes get smaller and come to an end when Israel is restored to Jerusalem. The iron/clay toes/horns end when the times of the gentiles end. This does not mean that the toe nations end, only that their power over Israel ends.

Perdition. This is the stone striking. The Antichrist/beast is destroyed by the brightness of His coming. So the beast/Antichrist Roman nation will still exist when the stone strikes, he can't be destroyed before that.

So during the time of the iron legs toes, the Roman beast nation must die, be divided, return, and be destroyed when Jesus comes for the kingdom (7th trumpet). Changing form, diminishing, but still with power over Israel until the toes end and the stone strikes.

=======================

The 7 heads are the lifetime of the Roman beast Empire nation. When the 7th head dies, the Roman Empire beast dies 476 ad. and divides. It ceases to be, but still exists in an image empire, continuing the iron.

So the beast empire dies when it changes form to become completely divided, but that part of the beast empire only.

The 8th head begins with Caesar/pagan worship, continues, and lasts from 476 ad until the coming of Jesus for the kingdom when the stone strikes.

This 8th head can ONLY be the Vatican and the BoR, Caesar and Caesar worship continued from the Roman Empire.


Your changing the tense of Revelation 17:8-18 without realizing you are doing it. In what you said you say between (ad64-ad96 approx) as for the date of the writing of the Revelation. Now so if it is written between ad64-ad96 as you said and the angel in Revelation 17 says that the beast that was,was not yet is was in the bottomless pit(when it was written) then the one that is to ascend out of the bottomless pit had already received the deadly wound and was in the pit at the time Revelation was given. I say this because if you read through what you said you say that it would receive that wound/die after ad64-96 instead of it already being in the pit like the angel says.
 

MarcR

Senior Member
Feb 12, 2015
5,486
171
0
Brother iam,

We know that the beast is Rome, as shown in the iron legs of the statue in Dan. 2, and the 4th beast of Dan 7. But not the Empire it's self, only the time that the Roman beast has power over Israel.

----

Rev 17:8, "The beast that thou sawest was, and is not, and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition:"

This describes the entire time of the beast's power over Israel. 63 bc until Israel is restored to Jerusalem. (1967, in my opinion)

Was.... At the time of this writing (64 ad- 96 ad approx) the Roman Empire had already had power over Israel for 100 years.

Is not.....Sometime during the time that Rome rules over Israel, the beast nation will cease to be. We know the this is a Roman beast nation, so sometime, the nation will change form (die).

Shall ascend out of the bottomless pit.....The nation returns, to continue it's rule over Israel.

Go into perdition....spiritual, 2nd death.

------

We know that the iron legs/toes nation of the statue are continual to the end. So this transition of the nation that goes into the pit, and then comes out of the pit, diminishes the power over Israel, but does not end it. That is, the nation changes form from the original, but the original returns.

In my opinion, this shows the fall of the Roman Empire in 476 ad, the exile of the Bishop of Rome (BoR) from Rome during the dark and middle ages (the 10 horns burn her), until 1929 when the Vatican became a nation again in the same spot, and the Antichrist returned to sit on the seat of the beast.

The original Roman Empire deteriorated into iron and clay, Roman and non-Roman nations. When the Empire died in 476, it divided into the 10 toes, 10 is the number of complete division it is not literal.

In 1929 the Roman Empire returned, the beast crawled out of the abyss. But it remains divided among the nations, as the clay in the statue shows. The toes get smaller and come to an end when Israel is restored to Jerusalem. The iron/clay toes/horns end when the times of the gentiles end. This does not mean that the toe nations end, only that their power over Israel ends.

Perdition. This is the stone striking. The Antichrist/beast is destroyed by the brightness of His coming. So the beast/Antichrist Roman nation will still exist when the stone strikes, he can't be destroyed before that.

So during the time of the iron legs toes, the Roman beast nation must die, be divided, return, and be destroyed when Jesus comes for the kingdom (7th trumpet). Changing form, diminishing, but still with power over Israel until the toes end and the stone strikes.

=======================

The 7 heads are the lifetime of the Roman beast Empire nation. When the 7th head dies, the Roman Empire beast dies 476 ad. and divides. It ceases to be, but still exists in an image empire, continuing the iron.

So the beast empire dies when it changes form to become completely divided, but that part of the beast empire only.

The 8th head begins with Caesar/pagan worship, continues, and lasts from 476 ad until the coming of Jesus for the kingdom when the stone strikes.

This 8th head can ONLY be the Vatican and the BoR, Caesar and Caesar worship continued from the Roman Empire.

At the time of this writing (64 ad- 96 ad approx)
I believe the entire NT was written before 70 AD because the fall of Jerusalem and destruction of the temple is not mentioned at all.

The 7 heads are the lifetime of the Roman beast Empire nation I believe they signify the founding nations of the Eeropean Common market; and the 10 horns are the 10 charter members.
 

Bladerunner

Senior Member
Aug 22, 2016
3,055
36
48

At the time of this writing (64 ad- 96 ad approx)
I believe the entire NT was written before 70 AD because the fall of Jerusalem and destruction of the temple is not mentioned at all.

The 7 heads are the lifetime of the Roman beast Empire nation I believe they signify the founding nations of the Eeropean Common market; and the 10 horns are the 10 charter members.
I agree with you partially about the writing of the NT. all of them except Revelation which was written around 94-95....We know this as we can place John of Patmos there through Historical records. I suspect the reasons why 70 AD was not brought up in the Book itself was 2 fold. First, It was thirty years after the fall of Jerusalem and the Temple. The second point is; The words of all text are God's words and if He did not want it in there, it would not be...All we get from the authors of the books is a different style of writing which is used to some extent to confirm the Author...(i.e Paul and Hebrews).

Revelation, unlike any of the the others is also most all prophetic. It contained Prophecies that "THINGS WHICH THOU HAST SEEN", Prophecies "THE THINGS WHICH ARE" and Prophecies of "THE THINGS WHICH SHALL BE HER THEREAFTER".

sorry MarcR, not shouting at you , just a form of Highlighting those items as amillennialist don't even consider them.

The "Things which thou hast seen" are from that period of time, 94-95' AD which explains why the letters to the churches of that time period are so accurate.

Had the NT been written within the 70-80' AD, I feel that the fall of Jerusalem would have been included since every Jew and believing Gentiles suffered through this time. This is not to say that many Christians were killed in 70 AD...They were not because they took the Prophecy of Jesus in Matt, Mark and Luke to heart and fled when the city was surrounded but still at a pause while politics took the spotlight.

However, even as "Smyrna" was the persecuted church depicted in the Seven Letters, the 90's and beyond brought about Christian persecution to a new level not seen in earlier times.

Good to talk to you again my friend and Brother in Christ.

Blade








 

iamsoandso

Senior Member
Oct 6, 2011
3,194
34
48
lol, unless it's in the pit and x amount of years later the earth said "hey lets take the old kingdom God removed and make another after it's likeness" and it ascended out of the pit...
 

Bladerunner

Senior Member
Aug 22, 2016
3,055
36
48
Your changing the tense of Revelation 17:8-18 without realizing you are doing it. In what you said you say between (ad64-ad96 approx) as for the date of the writing of the Revelation. Now so if it is written between ad64-ad96 as you said and the angel in Revelation 17 says that the beast that was,was not yet is was in the bottomless pit(when it was written) then the one that is to ascend out of the bottomless pit had already received the deadly wound and was in the pit at the time Revelation was given. I say this because if you read through what you said you say that it would receive that wound/die after ad64-96 instead of it already being in the pit like the angel says.


Telling someone that something is only symbolic is similar to a Lie used in the place of the Truth....Every time the object of the symbolic reasoning is brought up, the Symbolism has changed and usually gets bigger and out of control.


Thus, the symbolism of Revelation proceeds along those lines of thought!.......And here it is proven in your post....

Revelation is real, It is the Word of GOD, the SAME WORD God used to Create everything...He spoke us into existence It is a Book of Prophecy that has not come true YET, and would give you a blessing if you read it...ALL of IT.

Rev 1:3.."Blessed is he that readeth, and they that hear the words of this prophecy, and keep those things which are written therein: for the time is at hand."

This means YOU..that is if you read it right? Symbolizing and/or ignoring entire sections of the book, except chapters 20-22 probably does not get one that blessing!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Granted in the first verse, rev 1:1 "................. and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John:" For every sign (symbol) that Johns sees, it is explained to him by an Angel, Elder or Jesus. All signs that John saw are explained elsewhere in the Book of Revelation and/or the other chapters of the Bible.

(i.e. With John in the Spirit, He sees Jesus among Seven Golden Lampstands...(Rev 1:12),,,,,,Now in Rev 1:20..Jesus Tells us the Seven Golden Lampstands are the Seven Churches.) These are HIS WORDS.....the Same that Created YOU! How does one deny something so straightforward????????

 

iamsoandso

Senior Member
Oct 6, 2011
3,194
34
48
Telling someone that something is only symbolic is similar to a Lie used in the place of the Truth....Every time the object of the symbolic reasoning is brought up, the Symbolism has changed and usually gets bigger and out of control.


Thus, the symbolism of Revelation proceeds along those lines of thought!.......And here it is proven in your post....

Revelation is real, It is the Word of GOD, the SAME WORD God used to Create everything...He spoke us into existence It is a Book of Prophecy that has not come true YET, and would give you a blessing if you read it...ALL of IT.

Rev 1:3.."Blessed is he that readeth, and they that hear the words of this prophecy, and keep those things which are written therein: for the time is at hand."

This means YOU..that is if you read it right? Symbolizing and/or ignoring entire sections of the book, except chapters 20-22 probably does not get one that blessing!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Granted in the first verse, rev 1:1 "................. and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John:" For every sign (symbol) that Johns sees, it is explained to him by an Angel, Elder or Jesus. All signs that John saw are explained elsewhere in the Book of Revelation and/or the other chapters of the Bible.

(i.e. With John in the Spirit, He sees Jesus among Seven Golden Lampstands...(Rev 1:12),,,,,,Now in Rev 1:20..Jesus Tells us the Seven Golden Lampstands are the Seven Churches.) These are HIS WORDS.....the Same that Created YOU! How does one deny something so straightforward????????

lol, In a sort of strange way I suppose I agree but you should look real close at what i am saying because I'm not saying that it was in the pit "spiritually" in fact what I am speaking of is that the one that was in the pit in between ad64-ad96 and could be said that it was of those who held rule over Israel was Israel its self. You see it was removed from the earth in ad70 and it was "in the pit" but not spiritually it was quite literal that it was wounded unto death, and it is also true that after ww2 the earth did say "let us make an image of the beast that was and was not yet is and set the very kingdom that God removed back up in 1948. But of Rome it wasn't in the pit, Babylon nope,Egypt,nope, Assyria nope, Persia nope, Greece nope.... but not spiritually,literally.
 

Bladerunner

Senior Member
Aug 22, 2016
3,055
36
48
lol, In a sort of strange way I suppose I agree but you should look real close at what i am saying because I'm not saying that it was in the pit "spiritually" in fact what I am speaking of is that the one that was in the pit in between ad64-ad96 and could be said that it was of those who held rule over Israel was Israel its self. You see it was removed from the earth in ad70 and it was "in the pit" but not spiritually it was quite literal that it was wounded unto death, and it is also true that after ww2 the earth did say "let us make an image of the beast that was and was not yet is and set the very kingdom that God removed back up in 1948. But of Rome it wasn't in the pit, Babylon nope,Egypt,nope, Assyria nope, Persia nope, Greece nope.... but not spiritually,literally.
Oh My!I was speaking about the people who believe as the fellow you were answering. But I see you are in the same group.......I should not have interfered. So-Sad.

I will say this, Revelation did not happen in 70 AD...that was history. The real revelation of Jesus (The Unveiling of Jesus Christ) is Yet to come.