2 Peter 2 (Let's get into it)

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Katy-follower

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Jun 25, 2011
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[SUP]James 2
24 [/SUP]You see then that a man is justified by works, and not by faith only.


These words will never pass away.
Chris - as usual you're taking that one verse out of context. You have to read the entire chapter to fully see the message being given. You cannot keep cutting and pasting random verses, twisting them to support a different gospel. The bible flows together perfectly, so you need to read the entire bible and look at other scriptures that also relate.

I'm posting this not just for you, but also anyone that may be led astray by your post. But I get sharpened in the process, so an added bonus :)


James 2:14-24:

"What does it profit, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can faith save him? If a brother or sister is naked and destitute of daily food, and one of you says to them, “Depart in peace, be warmed and filled,” but you do not give them the things which are needed for the body, what does it profit? Thus also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead.

But someone will say, “You have faith, and I have works.” Show me your faith without your works, and I will show you my faith by my works. You believe that there is one God. You do well. Even the demons believe—and tremble! But do you want to know, O foolish man, that faith without works is dead? Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered Isaac his son on the altar?

Do you see that faith was working together with his works, and by works faith was made perfect? And the Scripture was fulfilled which says, “Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.” And he was called the friend of God. You see then that a man is justified by works, and not by faith only"


The contrast is shown here between true faith and dead faith, because both people are claiming to have faith. See, even the demons believe.

A true believer will have works in their life. As the scriptures say, a good tree will bear good fruit, but a bad tree cannot bear good fruit, because that bad tree was bad all along - it's completely dead. A dead tree is dead, it will not bear good fruit. So a person can say they have faith, but they have no works in their life, so then they have a dead faith. Because... the works are evidence that the person is saved to begin with. A person can profess to be a christian but not actually be truly saved. They need to be born of God.

So works are evidence of salvation. They do not save a person. Just as the example given above... Abraham had faith and his obedience was evidence of his faith. Notice the scripture says he believed God and it was accounted to him for righteousness. He did not obey God in order to be saved, rather his obedience was evidence of his faith. He had true faith!! One who has true faith will obey! As in the James scripture "I will show you my faith by my works" - proof that I have the true faith.

The bible is flawless with no contradictions. James and Paul agree with each other. Here is another scripture. I pasted only one verse to show the relevance....

Galatians 2:16: "........knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law but by faith in Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Christ Jesus, that we might be justified by faith in Christ and not by the works of the law; for by the works of the law no flesh shall be justified"


Here are more...

Ephesians 2:8-10: "For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, not of works, lest anyone should boast. For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them" - created for good works. We are saved by grace through faith. Not of works. We become new creatures in Christ (salvation first) and then the good works follow. And God prepared them beforehand.


Matthew 7:15-20:
"Beware of false prophets, who come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ravenous wolves. You will know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes from thornbushes or figs from thistles? Even so, every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit. A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, nor can a bad tree bear good fruit. Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. Therefore by their fruits you will know them" - you see, a bad tree will never bear good fruit. It's a dead tree all along. That person is not truly saved. And it says the dead tree will be thrown into hell. This is not a true believer, because the tree was always dead. Dead faith produces nothing. True faith WILL produce.


Matthew 7:21-23: "(judgment day) Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven. Many will say to Me in that day, ‘Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?’ And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!"

Many on judgment day (dead trees) will stand there boasting about their works. But they had a dead, non existent faith (they were never saved). Their works were of self and they will be called workers of iniquity.
 
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Katy-follower

Senior Member
Jun 25, 2011
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I was showing the reality that we can take any scripture out of it's context and say what we want to say
I'm pretty sure someone will find purple elephants with wings, prophesying in the sky, if they bend and twist the scriptures enough times, lol :)
 

mailmandan

Senior Member
Apr 7, 2014
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You are still divorcing faith from obedience and this gives you a poorer understanding. Look at the below:
I am not divorcing faith from obedience, "in regards to obedience being a manifestation of faith." To simply "define" faith as "obedience/works" results in a misunderstanding.

Hebrews 3
[SUP]18 [/SUP]And to whom did He swear that they would not enter His rest, but to those who did not obey? [SUP]19 [/SUP]So we see that they could not enter in because of unbelief.
As I said before, their disobedience was a manifestation of their unbelief. Just as obedience is a manifestation of belief.

Hebrews 4
4 Therefore, since a promise remains of entering His rest, let us fear lest any of you seem to have come short of it. [SUP]2 [/SUP]For indeed the gospel was preached to us as well as to them; but the word which they heard did not profit them,[SUP][a][/SUP] not being mixed with faith in those who heard it.
Those who come short of it did not believe the gospel. Just as we see in Hebrews 12:15 - ..comes short of the grace of God (NAS) failed to obtain the grace of God (ESV). *Notice that in Hebrews 2-3, we see a distinction between "us" who have BELIEVED and do enter that rest and "them" who heard the word but did not mix faith with what they heard and will not enter that rest because of UNBELIEF.

Inheriting eternal life is still found in obedience (Hebrews 3v18,19).
It's actually found in BELIEF, as you just saw in Hebrews 4:3 and we also see in (John 3:15,16,18; 5:24; 6:29,40,47; 11:25,26; Acts 10:43; 13:39; 16:31; Romans 1:16; 3:22-28; 4:5 etc..). Obedience which follows belief/faith is WORKS and we are NOT saved by works (Romans 4:5-6; Ephesians 2:8,9; Titus 3:5; 2 Timothy 1:9 etc..). Period. Obedience/works is a manifestation of belief/faith and is also the fruit, by product and demonstrative evidence of belief/faith, but not the essence of belief/faith and not the means of our salvation.

*You have crossed the line into salvation by works and don't even seem to realize it.

Jesus did not lie to the ruler who asked the question (Luke 18v20).
As I said before, Jesus wanted to impress on the rich young ruler both the high standard required by God and the absolute futility of seeking salvation based on his own merit. This should have elicited a response about his failure, but instead he confidently (and self righteously) declared that he qualified for heaven under those terms (vs. 20). This young man missed the point that Jesus was making (and so did you). Have you perfectly obeyed ALL 10 commandments 100% of the time? I didn't think so. It's either perfect obedience 100% of the time to the Law or bust. That's why salvation is through faith in Christ and is not by works. We all fall short.

Jesus showed the rich young ruler how short he falls of keeping the first commandment (Exodus 20:3) which is the first of the two great commandments (Deuteronomy 6:5; Matthew 22:37). The rich young ruler confidently and (self righteously) declared that he has kept the commandments from his youth up and qualified for heaven under those terms. Yet Jesus knew the man's wealth had become his idolatrous god, which kept him from following Jesus. The rich young ruler missed the point that Jesus was making, failed to place his faith in Jesus for salvation, and continued instead to trust in his riches (vs. 21-23). His face fell and he went away sad because he could not part from his great wealth, not even in exchange for eternal life.

Those in the old covenant who tried to uphold the law based on their own self effort always fell short.
Romans 3:23 - All have sinned and come short of the glory of God. Romans 6:23 - The wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

For faith looks to God. Only those who believed God found salvation.
Amen!

And these lived in obedience (Abraham), these lived in repentance (David), these lived under great persecution (Joseph), these lived under great ridicule and scoffing (Noah), etc.
Those who truly believe have repented. Obedience is a manifestation of faith, but not the essence of faith and not the means of receiving salvation. You could never be obedient enough to earn your salvation.

In James 2:21, notice closely that James does not say that Abraham's work of offering up Isaac resulted in God's accounting Abraham as righteous. The accounting of Abraham's faith as righteousness was made in Genesis 15:6, many years before his work of offering up Isaac recorded in Genesis 22. The work of Abraham did not have some kind of intrinsic merit to save his soul, but it proved or manifested the genuineness of his faith. This is the sense in which Abraham was justified by works. He was "shown to be righteous" based on his works and not accounted as righteous (Romans 4:2-3).

In Romans 4:6, we read - just as David also describes the blessedness of the man to whom God imputes righteousness apart from works.

Noah had already "found grace" (Genesis 6:8), was "a preacher of righteousness" (2 Peter 2:5), and "walked with God" before he built the ark. His obedience was a demonstration of his faith and not the origin of it.

Yet time and again we see through these heroes in the bible great faith. Were they perfect all the time? No. Did they always repent, Yes. For they lived by faith. Not merely a belief. But a belief in action.
Yet salvation is through faith and is not based on the merits of actions/works which follow. Those actions were a demonstration of their faith. If your faith is in "your actions/works" and is not in CHRIST ALONE for salvation, then you have missed the boat.
 

mailmandan

Senior Member
Apr 7, 2014
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[SUP]
James 2

24 [/SUP]You see then that a man is justified by works, and not by faith only.

These words will never pass away.
You continue to misinterpret James 2:24 and read it OUT OF CONTEXT. James does not teach that we are saved "by" works. His concern is to SHOW the reality of the faith professed by the individual (James 2:18) and demonstrate that the faith claimed (James 2:14) by the individual is genuine. Simple! As I explained before, James is discussing the proof of faith (says-claims to have faith but has no works/I will show you my faith by my works - James 2:14-18), not the initial act of being accounted as righteous with God (Romans 4:2-3).

For James, "faith only" means an empty profession of faith/dead faith and not genuine faith that results in producing works. If someone says or claims they have faith but lacks the resulting evidential works, then they demonstrate that their faith is bogus.

*Once again - Christ saves us through faith based on the merits of His finished work of redemption "alone" and not based on the merits of our works. It is through faith "in Christ alone" (and not by the merits of our works) that we are justified on account of Christ (Romans 3:24; 5:1; 5:9); yet the faith that justifies is never alone (solitary, unfruitful, barren) if it is genuine (James 2:14-24). *Perfect Harmony.* :)
 

Chris1975

Senior Member
Apr 27, 2017
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I am not divorcing faith from obedience, "in regards to obedience being a manifestation of faith." To simply "define" faith as "obedience/works" results in a misunderstanding.

As I said before, their disobedience was a manifestation of their unbelief. Just as obedience is a manifestation of belief.

Those who come short of it did not believe the gospel. Just as we see in Hebrews 12:15 - ..comes short of the grace of God (NAS) failed to obtain the grace of God (ESV). *Notice that in Hebrews 2-3, we see a distinction between "us" who have BELIEVED and do enter that rest and "them" who heard the word but did not mix faith with what they heard and will not enter that rest because of UNBELIEF.

It's actually found in BELIEF, as you just saw in Hebrews 4:3 and we also see in (John 3:15,16,18; 5:24; 6:29,40,47; 11:25,26; Acts 10:43; 13:39; 16:31; Romans 1:16; 3:22-28; 4:5 etc..). Obedience which follows belief/faith is WORKS and we are NOT saved by works (Romans 4:5-6; Ephesians 2:8,9; Titus 3:5; 2 Timothy 1:9 etc..). Period. Obedience/works is a manifestation of belief/faith and is also the fruit, by product and demonstrative evidence of belief/faith, but not the essence of belief/faith and not the means of our salvation.

*You have crossed the line into salvation by works and don't even seem to realize it.

As I said before, Jesus wanted to impress on the rich young ruler both the high standard required by God and the absolute futility of seeking salvation based on his own merit. This should have elicited a response about his failure, but instead he confidently (and self righteously) declared that he qualified for heaven under those terms (vs. 20). This young man missed the point that Jesus was making (and so did you). Have you perfectly obeyed ALL 10 commandments 100% of the time? I didn't think so. It's either perfect obedience 100% of the time to the Law or bust. That's why salvation is through faith in Christ and is not by works. We all fall short.

Jesus showed the rich young ruler how short he falls of keeping the first commandment (Exodus 20:3) which is the first of the two great commandments (Deuteronomy 6:5; Matthew 22:37). The rich young ruler confidently and (self righteously) declared that he has kept the commandments from his youth up and qualified for heaven under those terms. Yet Jesus knew the man's wealth had become his idolatrous god, which kept him from following Jesus. The rich young ruler missed the point that Jesus was making, failed to place his faith in Jesus for salvation, and continued instead to trust in his riches (vs. 21-23). His face fell and he went away sad because he could not part from his great wealth, not even in exchange for eternal life.

Romans 3:23 - All have sinned and come short of the glory of God. Romans 6:23 - The wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

Amen!

Those who truly believe have repented. Obedience is a manifestation of faith, but not the essence of faith and not the means of receiving salvation. You could never be obedient enough to earn your salvation.

In James 2:21, notice closely that James does not say that Abraham's work of offering up Isaac resulted in God's accounting Abraham as righteous. The accounting of Abraham's faith as righteousness was made in Genesis 15:6, many years before his work of offering up Isaac recorded in Genesis 22. The work of Abraham did not have some kind of intrinsic merit to save his soul, but it proved or manifested the genuineness of his faith. This is the sense in which Abraham was justified by works. He was "shown to be righteous" based on his works and not accounted as righteous (Romans 4:2-3).

In Romans 4:6, we read - just as David also describes the blessedness of the man to whom God imputes righteousness apart from works.

Noah had already "found grace" (Genesis 6:8), was "a preacher of righteousness" (2 Peter 2:5), and "walked with God" before he built the ark. His obedience was a demonstration of his faith and not the origin of it.

Yet salvation is through faith and is not based on the merits of actions/works which follow. Those actions were a demonstration of their faith. If your faith is in "your actions/works" and is not in CHRIST ALONE for salvation, then you have missed the boat.
To which I reply:

James 2v24

[SUP]24 [/SUP]You see then that a man is justified by works, and not by faith only.

Why do you continue to deny this scripture?

Do you not see your error? All of your explanations above do not address this scripture.

- Paul says (paraphrased) "Works cannot save you", and "the deeds of the law cannot save you" - and by implication where this originates from man's own effort alone. Paul says all have fallen short
- The writer of Hebrews say that those who fell in the wilderness were disobedient, because of their lack of faith.
- Paul says we are justified by faith.
- If you are genuinely in the faith, you will be obedient.
- You (mailmandan) say that obedience is a fruit of faith.
- You (mailmandan) are of the camp that once you believe "once" (at some point in history) you can never fall away from the faith.
- I (Chris1975) are of the camp that faith is continual. It has a starting point at conversion and is to remain on every believers walk with God.
- James says we are justified by works, and not faith alone. (because faith is continual, the justification starts at conversion and remains with a believer so long as they remain in the faith).
- The doctrine I'm sharing allows for both James and Paul to be correct and in total harmony.
- The doctrine you are sharing makes allowance for disobedience (because justification happened at the start)
- The doctrine you are sharing makes allowance for someone to backslide and fall away and not lose their salvation (because justification happened at the start).
- The doctrine I'm sharing indicates that the life of faith in Christ is manifested in good works and obedience (not only as a fruit, but as justification). Because God will judge based on our lives, not just at the moment of conversion.

Therefore if you say you have faith but willfully live in sin (like Grace777 alludes to with the gay churches) - these cannot be saved, even though they claim to believe, for they didn't forsake their sins. They are not living in faith. How can a good tree bear bad fruit? And those preachers who endorse a different message to the gospel by making accommodation to this are false teachers. Are you promoting this message? I know where G777 sits on this point. My question is to you, mailmandan -- will those in the gay churches be granted eternal life?
 

mailmandan

Senior Member
Apr 7, 2014
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To which I reply:

James 2v24

[SUP]24 [/SUP]You see then that a man is justified by works, and not by faith only.

Why do you continue to deny this scripture?
I don't deny that scripture and I also don't fail to interpret that scripture IN CONTEXT. I gave you a thorough explanation of James 2:24 IN CONTEXT in post #975 here - http://christianchat.com/bible-discussion-forum/152309-falling-away-faith-its-possible-49.html Did you even read it or did everything that I explained to you just go right over your head? :confused:

Do you not see your error? All of your explanations above do not address this scripture.
What error? All of my explanations above DO address this scripture. You just don't get it.

- Paul says (paraphrased) "Works cannot save you", and "the deeds of the law cannot save you" - and by implication where this originates from man's own effort alone. Paul says all have fallen short.
Not just specific deeds of the law but the entire law. The deeds of the law includes the MORAL aspect of the law as well. In James 2:15-16, the example of a "work" that James gives is: "If a brother or sister is naked and destitute of daily food, and one of you says to them, "Depart in peace, be warmed and filled," but you do not give them the things which are needed for the body, what does it profit?" To give a brother or sister these things needed for the body would certainly be a "good work" yet to neglect such a brother or sister and not give them the things needed for the body is to break the second great commandment "love your neighbor as yourself" (Matthew 22:39) as found written in the law of Moses (Leviticus 19:18).

In Matthew 22:37-40, we read: Jesus said to him, 'You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your mind.' This is the first and great commandment. And the second is like it: 'You shall love your neighbor as yourself.' On these two commandments hang all the Law and the Prophets. Please tell me, which good works could a Christian accomplish that are "completely detached" from these two great commandments which are found in the law of Moses? (Deuteronomy 6:5; Leviticus 19:18). Are there any genuine good works Christians do which fall outside of loving God and our neighbor as ourself?

- The writer of Hebrews say that those who fell in the wilderness were disobedient, because of their lack of faith.
Yes, their disobedience was a manifestation of their unbelief.

- Paul says we are justified by faith.
Amen! Paul did not say justified by faith and works (Romans 5:1).

- If you are genuinely in the faith, you will be obedient.
Amen! Obedience (in varying degrees/all Christians are fruitful, but not all are equally fruitful) is a manifestation of genuine faith.

- You (mailmandan) say that obedience is a fruit of faith.
Yes, obedience which is produced out of faith is the fruit of faith. Faith is the root of salvation and obedience/works which follow are the fruit. A good tree produces good fruit.

- You (mailmandan) are of the camp that once you believe "once" (at some point in history) you can never fall away from the faith.
That's a whole different topic. Let's stick with the topic at hand here. Faith that permanently falls away was never firmly rooted and established in Christ in the first place.

- I (Chris1975) are of the camp that faith is continual. It has a starting point at conversion and is to remain on every believers walk with God.
I never said that faith was not continual. Saving faith continues and is not some shallow, temporary belief that has no root, produces no fruit and withers away. I've repeated that multiple times in various posts. From beginning "have been saved through faith" (Ephesians 2:8) to end "receiving the end of your faith--the salvation of your souls" (1 Peter 1:9) salvation is through faith and is not by works.

- James says we are justified by works, and not faith alone. (because faith is continual, the justification starts at conversion and remains with a believer so long as they remain in the faith).
James is talking about dead faith here and not remaining in the faith. Your obsession with NOSAS seems to stem from believing that salvation is based on works.

- The doctrine I'm sharing allows for both James and Paul to be correct and in total harmony.
Not at all. Your doctrine is in disharmony with James and Paul. Only my doctrine is in harmony with both James and Paul. It is through faith "in Christ alone" (and not by the merits of our works) that we are justified on account of Christ (Romans 3:24; 5:1; 5:9); yet the faith that justifies is never alone (solitary, unfruitful, barren) if it is genuine (James 2:14-24). *Perfect Harmony.* :)

- The doctrine you are sharing makes allowance for disobedience (because justification happened at the start)
- The doctrine you are sharing makes allowance for someone to backslide and fall away and not lose their salvation (because justification happened at the start).
Straw man argument.

- The doctrine I'm sharing indicates that the life of faith in Christ is manifested in good works and obedience (not only as a fruit, but as justification). Because God will judge based on our lives, not just at the moment of conversion.
The doctrine that you are sharing equates to salvation by works. Your doctrine is the same false doctrine that I was taught in the Roman Catholic church prior to my conversion. You have clearly crossed the line into the salvation by works camp. :(

Therefore if you say you have faith but willfully live in sin (like Grace777 alludes to with the gay churches) - these cannot be saved, even though they claim to believe, for they didn't forsake their sins. They are not living in faith. How can a good tree bear bad fruit?
I never said that those who willfully live in sin will be saved anyway. BTY - to "sin willfully" in the Greek carries the idea of deliberate intention that is habitual, which stems from rejecting Christ deliberately. This is CONTINUOUS ACTION - A MATTER OF PRACTICE. Now we don't walk along our daily life and accidently fall into a pit called sin. We exercise our will but, the use of the participle clearly shows a CONTINUOUS ACTION. The unrighteous practice sin - (1 Corinthians 6:9-10; Galatians 5:19-21); not the righteous, who are born of God - (1 Corinthians 6:11; 1 John 3:9).

And those preachers who endorse a different message to the gospel by making accommodation to this are false teachers. Are you promoting this message? I know where G777 sits on this point. My question is to you, mailmandan -- will those in the gay churches be granted eternal life?
Obviously I'm not promoting the message of "practicing sin" but saved anyway, as I explained above. My answer to your question is found in Galatians 5:19-21 and 1 Corinthians 6:9-10.

You are so focused on "performance based" salvation that you have lost sight of how we are saved in the first place and that is by grace through faith, not works (Ephesians 2:8,9). *If you were standing at the gates of heaven right now and Jesus Christ asked you why He should let you into heaven, what would be your exact answer? Your answer to this question will demonstrate exactly what you are trusting in for salvation. Are you trusting in CHRIST ALONE for salvation or Christ + works?
 
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Chris1975

Senior Member
Apr 27, 2017
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I don't deny that scripture and I also don't fail to interpret that scripture IN CONTEXT. I gave you a thorough explanation of James 2:24 IN CONTEXT in post #975 here - http://christianchat.com/bible-discussion-forum/152309-falling-away-faith-its-possible-49.html Did you even read it or did everything that I explained to you just go right over your head? :confused:

What error? All of my explanations above DO address this scripture. You just don't get it.

Not just specific deeds of the law but the entire law. The deeds of the law includes the MORAL aspect of the law as well. In James 2:15-16, the example of a "work" that James gives is: "If a brother or sister is naked and destitute of daily food, and one of you says to them, "Depart in peace, be warmed and filled," but you do not give them the things which are needed for the body, what does it profit?" To give a brother or sister these things needed for the body would certainly be a "good work" yet to neglect such a brother or sister and not give them the things needed for the body is to break the second great commandment "love your neighbor as yourself" (Matthew 22:39) as found written in the law of Moses (Leviticus 19:18).

In Matthew 22:37-40, we read: Jesus said to him, 'You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your mind.' This is the first and great commandment. And the second is like it: 'You shall love your neighbor as yourself.' On these two commandments hang all the Law and the Prophets. Please tell me, which good works could a Christian accomplish that are "completely detached" from these two great commandments which are found in the law of Moses? (Deuteronomy 6:5; Leviticus 19:18). Are there any genuine good works Christians do which fall outside of loving God and our neighbor as ourself?

Yes, their disobedience was a manifestation of their unbelief.

Amen! Paul did not say justified by faith and works (Romans 5:1).

Amen! Obedience (in varying degrees/all Christians are fruitful, but not all are equally fruitful) is a manifestation of genuine faith.

Yes, obedience which is produced out of faith is the fruit of faith. Faith is the root of salvation and obedience/works which follow are the fruit. A good tree produces good fruit.

That's a whole different topic. Let's stick with the topic at hand here. Faith that permanently falls away was never firmly rooted and established in Christ in the first place.

I never said that faith was not continual. Saving faith continues and is not some shallow, temporary belief that has no root, produces no fruit and withers away. I've repeated that multiple times in various posts. From beginning "have been saved through faith" (Ephesians 2:8) to end "receiving the end of your faith--the salvation of your souls" (1 Peter 1:9) salvation is through faith and is not by works.

James is talking about dead faith here and not remaining in the faith. Your obsession with NOSAS seems to stem from believing that salvation is based on works.

Not at all. Your doctrine is in disharmony with James and Paul. Only my doctrine is in harmony with both James and Paul. It is through faith "in Christ alone" (and not by the merits of our works) that we are justified on account of Christ (Romans 3:24; 5:1; 5:9); yet the faith that justifies is never alone (solitary, unfruitful, barren) if it is genuine (James 2:14-24). *Perfect Harmony.* :)

Straw man argument.

The doctrine that you are sharing equates to salvation by works. Your doctrine is the same false doctrine that I was taught in the Roman Catholic church prior to my conversion. You have clearly crossed the line into the salvation by works camp. :(

I never said that those who willfully live in sin will be saved anyway. BTY - to "sin willfully" in the Greek carries the idea of deliberate intention that is habitual, which stems from rejecting Christ deliberately. This is CONTINUOUS ACTION - A MATTER OF PRACTICE. Now we don't walk along our daily life and accidently fall into a pit called sin. We exercise our will but, the use of the participle clearly shows a CONTINUOUS ACTION. The unrighteous practice sin - (1 Corinthians 6:9-10; Galatians 5:19-21); not the righteous, who are born of God - (1 Corinthians 6:11; 1 John 3:9).

Obviously I'm not promoting the message of "practicing sin" but saved anyway, as I explained above. My answer to your question is found in Galatians 5:19-21 and 1 Corinthians 6:9-10.

You are so focused on "performance based" salvation that you have lost sight of how we are saved in the first place and that is by grace through faith, not works (Ephesians 2:8,9). *If you were standing at the gates of heaven right now and Jesus Christ asked you why He should let you into heaven, what would be your exact answer? Your answer to this question will demonstrate exactly what you are trusting in for salvation. Are you trusting in CHRIST ALONE for salvation or Christ + works?
To answer your last question: Christ alone (we don't disagree). Yet if there is no obedience in my life, I never had Christ to begin with. Do you not see that?

Now to my question to you: Those in the gay church community who profess Christ --- will these inherit eternal life mailmandan? Your answer should include a Yes or No somewhere in it.
 

mailmandan

Senior Member
Apr 7, 2014
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To answer your last question: Christ alone (we don't disagree). Yet if there is no obedience in my life, I never had Christ to begin with. Do you not see that?
I see that. I get it. But do you truly get it?

Now to my question to you: Those in the gay church community who profess Christ --- will these inherit eternal life mailmandan? Your answer should include a Yes or No somewhere in it.
Practicing homosexuals = no. There is a difference between merely "professing" Christ and "possesing" Christ.
 

Chris1975

Senior Member
Apr 27, 2017
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I see that. I get it. But do you truly get it?

Practicing homosexuals = no. There is a difference between merely "professing" Christ and "possesing" Christ.
We can finally agree on something (in red above). Although you know that G777 would not agree with you.

What do you mean by "possessing" Christ? I thought we were His possession.
 
May 12, 2017
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To answer your last question: Christ alone (we don't disagree). Yet if there is no obedience in my life, I never had Christ to begin with. Do you not see that?

Now to my question to you: Those in the gay church community who profess Christ --- will these inherit eternal life mailmandan? Your answer should include a Yes or No somewhere in it.
Obedience to Christ under your own power is called self righteousness. Self righteousness is as filthy rags and performance


We are made righteous at conversion and then empowering grace becomes our teacher.


The gift of righteousness is position and understanding that position allows empowering grace to teach us and help us be obedient in our flesh, because apart from him you can do nothing.

Grace as a teacher: [Titus 2.11-15]

[SUP]11 [/SUP]For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation to all men, [SUP]12 [/SUP]instructing us to deny ungodliness and worldly desires and to live sensibly, righteously and godly in the present age, [SUP]13 [/SUP]looking for the blessed hope and the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior, Christ Jesus, [SUP]14 [/SUP]who gave Himself for us to redeem us from every lawless deed, and to purify for Himself a people for His own possession, zealous for good deeds.
[SUP]15 [/SUP]These things speak and exhort and reprove with all authority. Let no one disregard you.




Now to my question to you: Those in the straight church community who profess Christ who fornicate before marriage and during their marriage and the gluttons and those who drink to excess and get drunk and all the self righteousness self performers--- will these inherit eternal life tony? Your answer should include a Yes or No somewhere in it.
 

mailmandan

Senior Member
Apr 7, 2014
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We can finally agree on something (in red above). Although you know that G777 would not agree with you.

What do you mean by "possessing" Christ? I thought we were His possession.
It's just a way of saying that we actually belong to Christ and our profession is not merely an empty profession.
 

BillG

Senior Member
Feb 15, 2017
8,907
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Obedience to Christ under your own power is called self righteousness. Self righteousness is as filthy rags and performance


We are made righteous at conversion and then empowering grace becomes our teacher.


The gift of righteousness is position and understanding that position allows empowering grace to teach us and help us be obedient in our flesh, because apart from him you can do nothing.

Grace as a teacher: [Titus 2.11-15]

[SUP]11 [/SUP]For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation to all men, [SUP]12 [/SUP]instructing us to deny ungodliness and worldly desires and to live sensibly, righteously and godly in the present age, [SUP]13 [/SUP]looking for the blessed hope and the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior, Christ Jesus, [SUP]14 [/SUP]who gave Himself for us to redeem us from every lawless deed, and to purify for Himself a people for His own possession, zealous for good deeds.
[SUP]15 [/SUP]These things speak and exhort and reprove with all authority. Let no one disregard you.




Now to my question to you: Those in the straight church community who profess Christ who fornicate before marriage and during their marriage and the gluttons and those who drink to excess and get drunk and all the self righteousness self performers--- will these inherit eternal life tony? Your answer should include a Yes or No somewhere in it.
There is a big list to cover

1 Corinthians 6:9-10
Don’t you realize that those who do wrong will not inherit the Kingdom of God? Don’t fool yourselves. Those who indulge in sexual sin, or who worship idols, or commit adultery, or are male prostitutes, or practice homosexuality, or are thieves, or greedy people, or drunkards, or are abusive, or cheat people—none of these will inherit the Kingdom of God.

Galatians 5:19-21
Results of the Sinful Nature
When you follow the desires of your sinful nature, the results are very clear: sexual immorality, impurity, lustful pleasures, idolatry, sorcery, hostility, quarreling, jealousy, outbursts of anger, selfish ambition, dissension, division, envy, drunkenness, wild parties, and other sins like these. Let me tell you again, as I have before, that anyone living that sort of life will not inherit the Kingdom of God.

Ephesians 5:5
You can be sure that no immoral, impure, or greedy person will inherit the Kingdom of Christ and of God. For a greedy person is an idolater, worshiping the things of this world.




Colossians 3:5
So put to death the sinful, earthly things lurking within you. Have nothing to do with sexual immorality, impurity, lust, and evil desires. Don’t be greedy, for a greedy person is an idolater, worshiping the things of this world.
 
Mar 28, 2016
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*Once again - Christ saves us through faith based on the merits of His finished work of redemption "alone" and not based on the merits of our works. It is through faith "in Christ alone" (and not by the merits of our works) that we are justified on account of Christ (Romans 3:24; 5:1; 5:9); yet the faith that justifies is never alone (solitary, unfruitful, barren) if it is genuine (James 2:14-24). *Perfect Harmony.*
If I could add a suggestion. I would suggest Christ saves us through His faith based on the merits of His finished work of redemption "alone" and not based on the merits of our works, not a faith that comes after the imaginations of ones own heart.

The key is the faith in veiw belongs to God's own self it is the free gift of God. and not that of our own selves.

.If we would say God does not have or need faith the whole second chapter of James is made without effect.

So we are saved by works through the faith of Christ that works in us to both will and do His good purpose.

The parable below gives us some insight into the matter.

Jam 2:21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?Seest thou how faith( Christ’s) wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?

Was not Abraham our father justified by the work of God that worked in Abraham to both will and do His good pleasure. Therefore by that work Christ worked in Abraham making the faith of Christ perfect. Christ is the author and perfecter of His faith that he freely give to us with no cost o our behalf.
 
May 12, 2017
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We can finally agree on something (in red above). Although you know that G777 would not agree with you.

What do you mean by "possessing" Christ? I thought we were His possession.
You do understand that we are to possess Christ as he purchased us right? What exactly do you think taking up your cross is?

to KNOW Christ and for him to KNOW you means you become one with him. It is not an exchanged life or a changed life, it is intimate relationship.

You dont follow the rules to maintain salvation and right standing, you follow the rules out of sheer awe for who is and what he did for you. When you come into this revelation knowledge you will be more obedient and holy on accident that you will ever be on purpose.

John 17.3 says:
[SUP]3 [/SUP]This is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent.

That word know means to be one with intimately and is the very same Greek word and Hebrew equivalent idiom for sexual intimacy. Now before your head explodes and you come of the rails let me put this into context.

Jesus does not want you to have sex with him, he wants to be one with you and have complete intimacy with you.

When he says depart from because I never knew you, he is saying depart from because I was never one with you and you with me. So you did all these thing to please me, for me and to obey me, but I was never one with you and you were never one with me.

All your striving to obey the commands, be righteousness and everything to keep and maintain your salvation is in your power and not being one with Christ Jesus. That friend, is not a good place to be at whatsoever.
 

Chris1975

Senior Member
Apr 27, 2017
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You do understand that we are to possess Christ as he purchased us right? What exactly do you think taking up your cross is?

to KNOW Christ and for him to KNOW you means you become one with him. It is not an exchanged life or a changed life, it is intimate relationship.

You dont follow the rules to maintain salvation and right standing, you follow the rules out of sheer awe for who is and what he did for you. When you come into this revelation knowledge you will be more obedient and holy on accident that you will ever be on purpose.

John 17.3 says:
[SUP]3 [/SUP]This is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent.

That word know means to be one with intimately and is the very same Greek word and Hebrew equivalent idiom for sexual intimacy. Now before your head explodes and you come of the rails let me put this into context.

Jesus does not want you to have sex with him, he wants to be one with you and have complete intimacy with you.

When he says depart from because I never knew you, he is saying depart from because I was never one with you and you with me. So you did all these thing to please me, for me and to obey me, but I was never one with you and you were never one with me.

All your striving to obey the commands, be righteousness and everything to keep and maintain your salvation is in your power and not being one with Christ Jesus. That friend, is not a good place to be at whatsoever.
1 Corinthians 8v3
3 But if anyone loves God, this one is known by Him.

and to love God is to obey Him.....
 

Chris1975

Senior Member
Apr 27, 2017
2,492
517
113
I see that. I get it. But do you truly get it?

Practicing homosexuals = no. There is a difference between merely "professing" Christ and "possesing" Christ.
So what you you do, mailmandan, when evangelizing to the lost homosexuals in the gay churches? How would you approach this?

If they tell you, "Yes, I believe in Jesus Christ". How would you help bring them into the correct way?
 
May 12, 2017
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There is a big list to cover

1 Corinthians 6:9-10
Don’t you realize that those who do wrong will not inherit the Kingdom of God? Don’t fool yourselves. Those who indulge in sexual sin, or who worship idols, or commit adultery, or are male prostitutes, or practice homosexuality, or are thieves, or greedy people, or drunkards, or are abusive, or cheat people—none of these will inherit the Kingdom of God.

Galatians 5:19-21
Results of the Sinful Nature
When you follow the desires of your sinful nature, the results are very clear: sexual immorality, impurity, lustful pleasures, idolatry, sorcery, hostility, quarreling, jealousy, outbursts of anger, selfish ambition, dissension, division, envy, drunkenness, wild parties, and other sins like these. Let me tell you again, as I have before, that anyone living that sort of life will not inherit the Kingdom of God.

Ephesians 5:5
You can be sure that no immoral, impure, or greedy person will inherit the Kingdom of Christ and of God. For a greedy person is an idolater, worshiping the things of this world.




Colossians 3:5
So put to death the sinful, earthly things lurking within you. Have nothing to do with sexual immorality, impurity, lust, and evil desires. Don’t be greedy, for a greedy person is an idolater, worshiping the things of this world.
Stop confusing the Kingdom of God which is in you with the the next life to come.


Jesus said in Luke 17.21 that the Kingdom of God was within us, not the Kingdom of Heaven.
The Kingdom of Heaven is God's abode.

This whole thing unravels because of the false teaching that heaven is our final destination, Revelation 21 teaches no such thing. If we teach people they are going to heaven then you can use each one of the verses above to suggest works based salvation all day long.

Eternal Life is being one with God and Christ, salvation is staying delivered and forgiven. We inherit the Kingdom of God when we confess with our mouth and believe in our hearts.

The shedding of blood and the cross do not grant you eternal life do you they? The Bible says the shedding of blood is for the remission/forgiveness of SIN and the ransom/payment /deliverance from the powers of darkness.

John 17.3 Jesus says eternal life is this, that they know God and me!

The Kingdom of God is the temple of the Holy Spirit and that temple is where? IS YOUR BODY NOW!

So you must work our your own deliverance and forgiveness with fear and trembling, but thank Jesus we have the Holy Spirit and empowering grace to do in our spirit what we can never do in our flesh and that is abstain from:
sexual immorality, impurity, lustful pleasures, idolatry, sorcery, hostility, quarreling, jealousy, outbursts of anger, selfish ambition, dissension, division, envy, drunkenness, wild parties, and other sins like these.

Some of you are clinging to a counterfeit cross and not the nearly to good to be true Gospel
 
May 12, 2017
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So what you you do, mailmandan, when evangelizing to the lost homosexuals in the gay churches? How would you approach this?

If they tell you, "Yes, I believe in Jesus Christ". How would you help bring them into the correct way?
I would not evangelize to them until the Holy Spirit brings them into repentance through God's goodness.

Man for a guy that writes reams of stuff, you seem to be lost on the Gospel, but long in the tooth on theology.
 
May 12, 2017
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1 Corinthians 8v3
3 But if anyone loves God, this one is known by Him.

and to love God is to obey Him.....
No kidding really!? thank you captain obvious, but we do not obey him our of fear of losing our salvation. We obey him out of awe and reverence over who he is and what he did for us when he purchased us .

Are you really sure you understand the Gospel? The only thing you seem to understand is works based conditional self performance and effort.