50 Reasons For a Pretribulational Rapture By Dr. John F. Walvoord

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Dino246

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Why '88'? What am I not seeing right now?
Back in the mid-1980's some deluded nut wrote a book entitled, "88 Reasons Why Christ Will Return in 1988". It sold millions of copies.
 
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In your slew of words, you mention nothing about the "ARRIVAL of the man of sin" (its timing)... which is NOT at the same moment of his' being "consume with the spirit of his [Jesus'] mouth, and shall destroy with the manifestation/appearing of his [Jesus'] presence [/parousia]" 2Th2:8a/b (both aspects being spoken of in this ONE VERSE).

In 2Th2, Paul is making the point in that CONTEXT that when "the DOTL" is present on the earth (its having "ARRIVED" to unfold upon the earth) SO WILL BE "the man of sin" (his "ARRIVAL [/ coming / presence / parousia]" - 2Th2:9a [/8a]);

In 1Th5:2-3, he already acknowledged that the Thessalonians "KNOW PERFECTLY" that "the DOTL" earthly time-period will "ARRIVE" like... the INITIAL "birth PANG [SINGULAR]" *of* the PLURAL "beginning of birth PANGS [PL]" that Jesus had already spoken of in His Olivet Discourse, which are parallel to the SEALS of Rev6, and which time-period Rev1:1 [/1:19c / 4:1] explicitly states is a time-period of events which are "things which must come to pass IN QUICKNESS [NOUN]" (<--which phrase / time-period is also spoken of in Lk18:8 "avenge IN QUICKNESS [NOUN]" and in Rom16:20 "shall CRUSH Satan UNDER YOUR feet IN QUICKNESS [NOUN]"--all speaking of the SAME [future] TIME-PERIOD--the future, specific, LIMITED time-period we call the "7-yr tribulation period," which is just the FIRST ASPECT OF the very long, earthly-located, time-period known as "the DOTL"... it STARTS [its ARRIVAL, is] at the INITIAL "birth PANG [SINGULAR; 1Th5:2-3 (corresponding w/ Jesus' words re: SAME)]," not starting at a LATER point-in-time, in the chronology [like, at His Second Coming to the earth, or such... NO.])
...in his slew of words? No disrespect meant (truly), but just about every post you make is a slew of words. You literally skewer everything, and is extremely difficult to make sense of without a degree in deciphering.
 

GaryA

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GaryA

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In time-and-event terms, what is the distinction between the souls under the altar in Revelation 6:9 and the fellowservants in Revelation 6:11 that "should be killed as they were"...???
I wrote this post to basically ask the question of how the 'pre-trib' view fits all of this into its 7-year period - since it does not believe any of it has occurred yet...?
 
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What you are speaking are two separate events.

When the Lord comes to gather the church, He will ascend to the atmosphere 'only' and call up the dead and the living believers. Then in fulfillment of John 14:1-3, He will take the entire church back to the Father's house to those places that He prepared for us.
At the once and only return of Christ we agree.

Before the great tribulation, no.

Following the gathering of the church, God's wrath will begin by that ruler, the antichrist establishing his seven year covenant in part with Israel. It is during this time also when the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments will be taking place throughout the entire period.
God doesn't use the devil, anti-Christ, false prophet and great tribulation persecute the saints, all nations, tribes, and tongues. Think carefully what you're positing.

The seals, trumpets, and bowls aren't directed toward Christians.

What everyone seems to ignore and/or take into consideration is that, because God's wrath has already been satisfied by Jesus, then God's wrath no longer rests upon believers. Anyone who believes and teaches that the church is going to be on the earth during the time of His wrath, has no understanding of the severity of the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments. This world will be no place to live, even if God was to protect the church. It's going to be a chaotic mess! You're gonna have demonic beings coming up out of the Abyss tormenting people with the stings like that of a scorpion, which will last for five months. You're going to have a third of the earth and trees burned up, a third of the rivers and fresh water contaminated and killing many. Four fallen angels and their demonic army of 200 million, are going to kill a third of the earth inhabitants. That's just a few plagues of wrath off the top of my head and you think that the Lord is going to leave His church here during that time? It makes more spiritual sense for the Lord to remove His church from the earth, opposed to working His wrath around them.
The bowls of wrath don't begin until after the great tribulation. The rapture has already happened. The church was protected by God and the two witnesses.

Seems like the big thing keeping you from tying it all together is you think the rapture happens pre-tribulation.

Study Matthew 24 where the great tribulation is described and then Jesus saying He comes back after the great tribulation to gather His elect.

Also, study who the elect are in the new testament. That should help you see that it's the church, not unbelieving Jews.

I know we have gone over this several times together, but I figured it can't hurt to tell you again. Sometimes just seeing things more than once helps unlock understanding.
 

GaryA

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--either you see NO relation to Jesus' phrase "the BEGINNING of birth PANGS [PLURAL]" to Paul's use of the term "birth PANG [SINGULAR; 1Th5:2-3]" regarding the manner in which "the DOTL" will ARRIVE; or else you do see the relation between their both using these terms, but believe they were both speaking of the "near-future" events of 70ad (so that, "the DOTL" time-period ARRIVED back in the events surrounding 70ad, and thus also "the man of sin" / "whose COMING [/ARRIVAL / ADVENT / PRESENCE / parousia]" 2Th2:9a [at that time, meaning, in the 70ad events])?
I do not see a direct correlation between the two; they are [only] "different concepts with a similarity" in the 'grammar of the language'.
 

GaryA

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At the once and only return of Christ we agree.
That is not what he is saying. He believes in pre-trib-for-the-saints and post-trib-for-the-wrath. And, he believes the Seals, Trumpets, and Vials are all part of the Wrath of God - and, carried out during the GT.
 

Truth7t7

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When the Lord comes to gather the church, He will ascend to the atmosphere 'only' and call up the dead and the living believers. Then in fulfillment of John 14:1-3, He will take the entire church back to the Father's house to those places that He prepared for us.

Following the gathering of the church, God's wrath will begin by that ruler, the antichrist establishing his seven year covenant in part with Israel. It is during this time also when the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments will be taking place throughout the entire period.

What everyone seems to ignore and/or take into consideration is that, because God's wrath has already been satisfied by Jesus, then God's wrath no longer rests upon believers. Anyone who believes and teaches that the church is going to be on the earth during the time of His wrath, has no understanding of the severity of the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments. This world will be no place to live, even if God was to protect the church. It's going to be a chaotic mess! You're gonna have demonic beings coming up out of the Abyss tormenting people with the stings like that of a scorpion, which will last for five months. You're going to have a third of the earth and trees burned up, a third of the rivers and fresh water contaminated and killing many. Four fallen angels and their demonic army of 200 million, are going to kill a third of the earth inhabitants. That's just a few plagues of wrath off the top of my head and you think that the Lord is going to leave His church here during that time? It makes more spiritual sense for the Lord to remove His church from the earth, opposed to working His wrath around them.
There is one future coming of Jesus Christ

All claims made by Darbyites of a Pre-Trib rapture, are nothing more than the second coming, last day resurrection

Jesus will come again,and take the church to his fathers house, it's called (New Jerusalem) Rev 21:1-5, in the New Heaven And Earth.
 

Truth7t7

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Back in the mid-1980's some deluded nut wrote a book entitled, "88 Reasons Why Christ Will Return in 1988". It sold millions of copies.
Sounds like the late Churck Smith, Calvary Chapel, Costa Mesa Ca
 

Truth7t7

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And that's the whole point. Only A BELIEVING REMNANT has ever been saved.
The initial claim by DivineWatermark was (Israel As A Whole) not just the Remnant, get caught up to speed.

Quote DivineWatermark:

whereas "prophecies" re: Israel's "future" speak in more glowing/glorious terms, about them/Israel
 

Ahwatukee

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Mar 12, 2015
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At the once and only return of Christ we agree.

Before the great tribulation, no.
You're not understanding that these events are two separate events. You have adopted the teaching that the gathering of the church and the Lord's return to the earth to end the age as take place at the same time. The gathering of the church is a promise from the Lord found in John 14:1-3, I Corinthians 15:50-53 and I Thessalonians 4:13-18.

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"Now about the times and seasons, brothers, we do not need to write to you. 2For you are fully aware that the Day of the Lord will come like a thief in the night. 3While people are saying, “Peace and security,” destruction will come upon them suddenly, like labor pains on a pregnant woman, and they will not escape.

4But you, brothers, are not in the darkness so that this day should overtake you like a thief. (I Thessalonians 5:1-4)
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The times and the seasons, is regarding what Paul just spoke about in the previous chapter, which is when the church would be gathered. He's says that he doesn't need to write to them about when it will happen, because it will take place like a thief in the night, i.e. the Lord's appearing is always imminent.

The people in verse 3 who will say 'Peace and Safety' represent the unbelievers in the world, for at that time when they are saying 'Peace and Safety' then destruction will come upon them suddenly, which is referring to the time of God's wrath and they will not escape from this.

'But you brothers' would infer the opposite of 'not escaping' i.e. but you brothers will escape. How? By what Paul just wrote to them in the previous chapter saying that the Lord will descend from heaven, with a loud command and with the voice of an archangel and the trumpet of God and the dead would rise in their immortal and glorified bodies. And then we who are still alive and remain will be changed and caught up with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. At that time the entire church from beginning to end will be gathered together in one place and from there the Lord will take the whole group back to the Father's house to those places that He went to prepare for us.

After the church has been caught up to meet the Lord in the air, then that sudden destruction, the time period of God's wrath will begin. The scripture states that believers within the church are not in darkness so that this day should take us by surprise, i.e. because we will be having faith in Christ, we will not be here on the earth for that time of destruction. For it also states that we are not appointed to suffer God's coming wrath.

I continue to say it, people have not done an in depth study of the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments, understanding the severity and magnitude of their destruction and the fatalities that will result. If they did, they would not claim that the church is going to be on the earth during that time.

The time of God's wrath will be for the wicked, the proud, the arrogant, the sexually immoral and who continue to willfully live according to the sinful nature. The true church will not be living like that, but will be watching for and anticipating the Lord's appearing and will be removed from the earth.

God doesn't use the devil, anti-Christ, false prophet and great tribulation persecute the saints, all nations, tribes, and tongues. Think carefully what you're positing.
Every event that takes place during that last seven years is a part of God's wrath, including the beasts reign, the mark of the beast, etc. The mark will be like that proverbial line being drawn in the sand which will force people to make a direct decision for God or Satan. Those who receive it will love their lives more than God. And those who refuse it will keep their testimony for Jesus and the word of God and will not worship the beast, his image nor receive his mark at the expense of their own lives. These will be the great tribulation saints, those who will have come to Christ after the church was gathered and during the time period of God's wrath.

The seals, trumpets, and bowls aren't directed toward Christians.
That is correct! And because of their severity and the fact that they will affect the entire world, the church will not remain on the earth, but will be gathered by the Lord. Even if the Lord protected the church, the earth will be no place to live during that time. Remember, everyone will be required to take that mark in order to be able to continue credit and debit their bank accounts. That would mean that the believers in the church would not be able to pay their mortgages/rents, buy gas, food or anything else, because they will not have access to their money without that mark.

The bowls of wrath don't begin until after the great tribulation. The rapture has already happened. The church was protected by God and the two witnesses.
The bowls of wrath and the kingdom of the beast, is why it is called the great tribulation. By the way, the seals and trumpets also events of God's wrath and not just the bowls.

Seems like the big thing keeping you from tying it all together is you think the rapture happens pre-tribulation.
That is exactly what I have been saying, i.e. that the gathering of the church will take place prior to the first seal is opened, which initiates God's wrath.

"But since we belong to the day, let us be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love, and the helmet of our hope of salvation. For God has not appointed us to suffer wrath, but to obtain salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ."

"They tell how you turned to God from idols to serve the living and true God, and to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead—Jesus, who rescues us from the coming wrath.

"Since you have kept my command to endure patiently, I will also keep you out of the hour of trial that is going to come on the whole world to test the inhabitants of the earth." - Rev.3:10

The word 'ek' is translated above as 'out of' which means that believers will be kept out of that time of wrath, not in it or through it, but will be kept 'out of' that time of wrath. And the way that He will keep us 'out of' that time of wrath, is that the Lord will keep His promise by gathering the church and taking them back to the Father's house.

Study Matthew 24 where the great tribulation is described and then Jesus saying He comes back after the great tribulation to gather His elect.
Runningman, I have studied Matthew 24 and all the related scriptures more times than I can count over the last 45 years. I wouldn't be teaching these truths if I hadn't. Matt.24:29-31 is in reference to when the Lord returns to the earth to end the age and establish His millennial kingdom. In Matt.24:31, the Lord will send out His angels and they will go out and first collect the wicked, which are the 'ones taken' group and will be brought back to the Lord to be killed with that double-edged sword described in Rev.19:15, 21. Matt.24:31, is not in reference to the angels gathering the church at the rapture as some believe, but will be gathering both the wicked and the righteous who will have made it alive through the entire wrath of God. Just fyi, angels do not gather those who will be resurrected, nor the living who will be changed and caught up. They will rise under their own power when the Lord with a voice that will sound like a trumpet, calls them up. Both the remnant of Israel and the great tribulation saints who make it alive through the entire wrath of God, will enter into the millennial kingdom and will repopulate the earth.

Also, study who the elect are in the new testament. That should help you see that it's the church, not unbelieving Jews.
Both Jews and Gentile believers are referred to as the elect. We should not pigeonhole the word 'elect' to mean one thing.

Just trying to break you free of the teaching that the gathering of the church as being synonymous with the Lord's return to the earth to end the age. They are two separate events, which take place at different times and for different reasons.
 

GaryA

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...in his slew of words? No disrespect meant (truly), but just about every post you make is a slew of words. You literally skewer everything, and is extremely difficult to make sense of without a degree in deciphering.
This is funny.

I understand your POV.

It can be pretty painful trying to read his posts.

I can usually "decipher" his posts if I want to make the effort. Otherwise - and, to be honest, it is the 'norm' - I just skip it...

I do the same type of thing myself - intended to help folks better understand what I have written.

Of course, [I don't think] mine are not nearly as difficult to "decipher" as his. (I sure hope not.)

One thing I can say about him, however - he is generally always cordial about it!

:)
 

Truth7t7

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I wrote this post to basically ask the question of how the 'pre-trib' view fits all of this into its 7-year period - since it does not believe any of it has occurred yet...?
There is no 7 year period seen in scripture

The 1260 days of the Two Witnesses and 42 months of (The Beast) are future parallel time frames of 3.5 years, that will start when (The Little Horn) or (Man Of Sin) or (The Beast) is revealed in Jerusalem, with the Two Prophets of Rev 11 standing against this figure the entire time
 

Truth7t7

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I wrote this post to basically ask the question of how the 'pre-trib' view fits all of this into its 7-year period - since it does not believe any of it has occurred yet...?
There will be a 3.5 year period from the time John's Beast is revealed

There will be two witnesses, prophets returned that will bring literal plagues Rev 16:1-11 upon this world, as the sealed church is protected

This will be a complete remake of Moses/Aaron against Pharaoh of Egypt

At the end of this great tribulation,the witnesses will be killed,the world celebrates for 3.5 days, as they are raised to heaven, as the world watches in fear

The 3rd woe is unleashed shortly after, in the Lords second coming in fire and judgement, the heavens and earth are dissolved by fire, as judgement is complete, lake of fire for the wicked, the eternal new heaven, earth, Jerusalem, for the righteous.
 

Truth7t7

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...in his slew of words? No disrespect meant (truly), but just about every post you make is a slew of words. You literally skewer everything, and is extremely difficult to make sense of without a degree in deciphering.
I agree (Chaos), the poster has been told several times, correction is given for a few days, then back to the (Chaos)

As Gary stated above, he skips reading the (Chaos) and that includes myself
 

Truth7t7

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The gathering of the church is a promise from the Lord found in John 14:1-3, I Corinthians 15:50-53 and I Thessalonians 4:13-18
Your claim is false, the gathering seen below isnt a Pre-Trib rapture as you claim, it's the (Second Coming) The End!

1 Corinthians 15:51-54 and 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17 is nothing more than the (Second Coming) Last Day Resurrection (Then Cometh The End) when (Death Is Swallowed Up In Victory)

afterward they that are Christ's at his coming. Then cometh the end

afterward they that are Christ's at his coming. Then cometh the end

1 Corinthians 15:22-26KJV
22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.
24 Then cometh the end
, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.
25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.
26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.

51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.