50 Reasons For a Pretribulational Rapture By Dr. John F. Walvoord

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lamad

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Christian doctrine, led by a few men in history, go on to teach that Gabriels 70 weeks stop at the 69th week, for several thousand years, and that we are still waiting for the 70th week!

This of course is beyond speculative to that of absolute fantasy imagination. Yet if you look at the majority of websites who claim to be some kind of authority out there, or bestseller books ranging back since the 1960’s, you will always see something to the tune of,

“Now, the prophecy seems to stop… there is a gap in the prophecy between the 69th and 70th week… which has not yet occurred.”

The majority of Christian writers echo this fantasy.

Worse, this line of thinking has made Christianity ridiculous to the public and very confused for those who would actually believe upon Christ. Instead they are overwhelmed with rapture theory birthed out of these vain imaginations and TV shows of which the secular world runs the ball with, all the while blaspheming our Adonai.

When you see book and cable TV series of shows like “Good Omens,” written by anti-Christian authors who promote satanism, witchcraft, and all things confusion for Christians, we know the corrupted theories, like the rapture, and pre-tribulation, have done their job for the dark side.
Your fantasy is John and Jesus' truth. Most or Revelation is future. You will have to see it to believe it.

The truth is, Daniel PENNED IN a gap and put the 70 AD events in the gap.
 

lamad

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As believers in HaMashiach we have listened to many men and women preaching from the pulpit that the 70 weeks as given to Navi Yirmeyahu, the prophet Jeremiah, and Daniel through the angel Gabriel, that the prophecy relates to Christianity.

The 70 weeks absolutely have nothing to do with Christians, or the elect – nothing whatsoever.

The prophecy of Daniel 9:24 relates ONLY:
  1. for Israel; NOT the Saints, or Christians, or secular world.
  2. for the holy city Jerusalem.
Anyone who adds End Times philosophy in here is doing so by their own imagination – anything added, like light sabers, is imagination or blatant theory.
Pretribbers agree: it is written in Daniel 9.
 

cv5

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1 more time and I will leave you all to ponder your reality:

The 70 weeks absolutely have nothing to do with Christians, or the elect – nothing whatsoever.

The prophecy of Daniel 9:24 relates ONLY:
  1. for Israel; NOT the Saints, or Christians, or secular world.
  2. for the holy city Jerusalem.
Who is sewing the confusion to you? Perhaps your enemies who hate Christians that do this every day all day long in these chat rooms.

You will know them by what they say. No man or woman can say Jesus Christ is my Lord and Savior who has redeemed me and is my Mashiach, if they are not Christians.

Keep that in mind. Do they argue concepts, ideologies, theories, scripture - but never claim Christ as their redeemer?

Always remember, everyday of your life, your enemy’s purpose:
  • confuse the sheep
  • scatter the sheep
  • destroy the sheep
Only through Christ Jesus do we find salvation, including all you rascals out there who try to stop it and confuse everyone with simple doctrine for babes, like Gabriel's 70 weeks given to Daniel.
Yes I do completely agree that Daniels 70 weeks prophecy pertains only to Israel and speaks not at all to the Church. The Church is only inferred in the gap.

But simply stated your math is wrong. Seriously the 70 A.D. math just does not work in Daniel chapter 9.
 

cv5

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69 times 360 times 7 = 173,880 days.
Yes of course that's true, The span of time is precisely 173,880 days.

What I'm saying is the starting and end dates as interpreted to our present day Gregorian calendar, including leap years etc etc. may be slightly shifted one way or the other, including the estimate of the precise date of the command of Artaxerxes Longimanus.
 

cv5

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To initial post;

Why isn't the Bible sufficient? It is very clear.
Seeing that so many people believe that the Church is noted in Matthew 24.......it is not at all clear enough to many. Blame their ill-equipped pastors I guess....:unsure:
 

Truth7t7

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Jesus also stated that this generation referring to the Israelites of His time would see YOM YHWH before the generation was over, which they did less than 40 years later (37) when Titus showed up and over a million people were killed.
The future generation that will be (Eyewitnesses) to the events, and witness (The Future Second Coming)

Verse 33, know that it's near, even at the doors, (The Future Second Coming)

Verse 36, But of that day and hour no man, angel knows (The Future Second Coming)

Matthew 24:33-36KJV

33 So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors.
34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.
35 Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away.
36 But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.
 

VCO

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Oct 14, 2013
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1 more time and I will leave you all to ponder your reality:

The 70 weeks absolutely have nothing to do with Christians, or the elect – nothing whatsoever.

The prophecy of Daniel 9:24 relates ONLY:
  1. for Israel; NOT the Saints, or Christians, or secular world.
  2. for the holy city Jerusalem.
Who is sewing the confusion to you? Perhaps your enemies who hate Christians that do this every day all day long in these chat rooms.

You will know them by what they say. No man or woman can say Jesus Christ is my Lord and Savior who has redeemed me and is my Mashiach, if they are not Christians.

Keep that in mind. Do they argue concepts, ideologies, theories, scripture - but never claim Christ as their redeemer?

Always remember, everyday of your life, your enemy’s purpose:
  • confuse the sheep
  • scatter the sheep
  • destroy the sheep
Only through Christ Jesus do we find salvation, including all you rascals out there who try to stop it and confuse everyone with simple doctrine for babes, like Gabriel's 70 weeks given to Daniel.

JESUS would disagree with you totally!


John 10:14-16 (ESV)
14 I am the good shepherd. I know my own and my own know me,
15 just as the Father knows me and I know the Father; and I lay down my life for the sheep.
16 And I have other sheep {That is N.T. Assembly} that are not of this fold. {Last of the O.T. Assembly}
I must bring them also, and they will listen to my voice. So there will be one flock, one shepherd. {At the RAPTURE.}


Matthew 16:18 (YLT)
18 `And I also say to thee, that thou art a rock, and upon this rock I will build my assembly,
and gates of Hades shall not prevail against it;


O.T. Assembly = those who believed GOD would send the Messiah to pay for their SINS.

N.T. Assembly = those who believed GOD did send the Messiah to pay for our Sins.


That is what it means to have the FAITH OF ABRAHAM.
 

Evmur

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My answer was to your statement that the rapture would be "after the tribulation of those days. In Revelation that would be in Rev. 19 at His coming to Armageddon.

Your answer here is just a need sidestep rather that the real question as to WHEN Paul's rapture will take place. Paul goes on in chapter 5, after His classic rapture verse in chapter 4, telling us WHEN: it will come just before God's wrath begins. In Revelation that would be just before the 6th seal. The great crowd too large to number was seen in heaven just after that. You see, it all fits if you refuses to rearrange the text to fit some wrong theory.

Again, the great crowd in heaven is the just raptured church - in chapter 7. Jesus coming "after the trip of those days is in chapter 19 - 12 chapters of EVENTS between. These are the events of the 70th week.
I don't think we disagree, pre - wrath but post - trib.

I believe more folk will be martyred than raptured making up that great multitude. something very martyrish about them.

Paul said "... then we who are alive and remain .... will be caught up together with them to meet the Lord in the clouds" that "and remain" stands out to me.
 

Evmur

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You can stay behind and "tribulate" if you want to. Many are going to take God's escape plan and spend the 70th week or "trib' in heaven. I'll look you up at the marriage and supper in heaven, and ask how you beliefs worked out for you.

Where you missed it: the 70th week is ALL God's wrath because the Day of His wrath started first. Then, during the last half of the week, those days of GT, both God's wrath and Satan's wrath will be happening concurrently. There is NO WAY to divide God's wrath and Satan's wrath according to time.

Don't take my word for it: go back and look: THE DAY of His wrath at the 6th seal starts before the 70th week that begins at the 7th seal.
You must distinguish between God's wrath and the great tribulation .
 

Evmur

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There's Going To Be An End Times Persecution, The Beast And His Kingdom Are The Target Of God's Empowered (Two Witnesses)

The Great Tribulation Will Come Upon The Wicked World, While The (Sealed Church) Is Protected

The (Sealed Church) will be present on earth and protected, when wicked men are tormented 5 months, desiring to die as death flees

All saved believers are (Sealed) by God, Eph 1:13, 4:30

Ephesians 1:13KJV
13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,

Ephesians 4:30KJV
30 And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.

It Was Commanded, Only Those Without God's Seal, The Sealed Church Is Protected

Revelation 9:3-6KJV
3 And there came out of the smoke locusts upon the earth: and unto them was given power, as the scorpions of the earth have power.
4 And it was commanded them that they should not hurt the grass of the earth, neither any green thing, neither any tree; but only those men which have not the seal of God in their foreheads.
5 And to them it was given that they should not kill them, but that they should be tormented five months: and their torment was as the torment of a scorpion, when he striketh a man.
6 And in those days shall men seek death, and shall not find it; and shall desire to die, and death shall flee from them.

Plagues upon The Beast and his Kingdom, a remake of Moses/Aaron against Pharaoh of Egypt

Revelation 11:3-6
3 And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.
4 These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth.
5 And if any man will hurt them, fire proceedeth out of their mouth, and devoureth their enemies: and if any man will hurt them, he must in this manner be killed.
6 These have power to shut heaven, that it rain not in the days of their prophecy: and have power over waters to turn them to blood, and to smite the earth with all plagues, as often as they will.

Revelation 16:1-11KJV
1 And I heard a great voice out of the temple saying to the seven angels, Go your ways, and pour out the vials of the wrath of God upon the earth.
2 And the first went, and poured out his vial upon the earth; and there fell a noisome and grievous sore upon the men which had the mark of the beast, and upon them which worshipped his image.
3 And the second angel poured out his vial upon the sea; and it became as the blood of a dead man: and every living soul died in the sea.
4 And the third angel poured out his vial upon the rivers and fountains of waters; and they became blood.
5 And I heard the angel of the waters say, Thou art righteous, O Lord, which art, and wast, and shalt be, because thou hast judged thus.
6 For they have shed the blood of saints and prophets, and thou hast given them blood to drink; for they are worthy.
7 And I heard another out of the altar say, Even so, Lord God Almighty, true and righteous are thy judgments.
8 And the fourth angel poured out his vial upon the sun; and power was given unto him to scorch men with fire.
9 And men were scorched with great heat, and blasphemed the name of God, which hath power over these plagues: and they repented not to give him glory.
10 And the fifth angel poured out his vial upon the seat of the beast; and his kingdom was full of darkness; and they gnawed their tongues for pain,
11 And blasphemed the God of heaven because of their pains and their sores, and repented not of their deeds.
The great tribulation IS the great persecution ... God's wrath is upon the persecutors.
The Great Tribulation Will Come Upon The Wicked World, While The (Sealed Church) Is Protected

The (Sealed Church) will be present on earth and protected, when wicked men are tormented 5 months, desiring to die as death flees

All saved believers are (Sealed) by God, Eph 1:13, 4:30

Ephesians 1:13KJV
13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,

Ephesians 4:30KJV
30 And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.

It Was Commanded, Only Those Without God's Seal, The Sealed Church Is Protected

Revelation 9:3-6KJV
3 And there came out of the smoke locusts upon the earth: and unto them was given power, as the scorpions of the earth have power.
4 And it was commanded them that they should not hurt the grass of the earth, neither any green thing, neither any tree; but only those men which have not the seal of God in their foreheads.
5 And to them it was given that they should not kill them, but that they should be tormented five months: and their torment was as the torment of a scorpion, when he striketh a man.
6 And in those days shall men seek death, and shall not find it; and shall desire to die, and death shall flee from them.

Plagues upon The Beast and his Kingdom, a remake of Moses/Aaron against Pharaoh of Egypt

Revelation 16:1-11KJV
1 And I heard a great voice out of the temple saying to the seven angels, Go your ways, and pour out the vials of the wrath of God upon the earth.
2 And the first went, and poured out his vial upon the earth; and there fell a noisome and grievous sore upon the men which had the mark of the beast, and upon them which worshipped his image.
3 And the second angel poured out his vial upon the sea; and it became as the blood of a dead man: and every living soul died in the sea.
4 And the third angel poured out his vial upon the rivers and fountains of waters; and they became blood.
5 And I heard the angel of the waters say, Thou art righteous, O Lord, which art, and wast, and shalt be, because thou hast judged thus.
6 For they have shed the blood of saints and prophets, and thou hast given them blood to drink; for they are worthy.
7 And I heard another out of the altar say, Even so, Lord God Almighty, true and righteous are thy judgments.
8 And the fourth angel poured out his vial upon the sun; and power was given unto him to scorch men with fire.
9 And men were scorched with great heat, and blasphemed the name of God, which hath power over these plagues: and they repented not to give him glory.
10 And the fifth angel poured out his vial upon the seat of the beast; and his kingdom was full of darkness; and they gnawed their tongues for pain,
11 And blasphemed the God of heaven because of their pains and their sores, and repented not of their deeds.
All this is the wrath of God not tribulation, you have to distinguish the two.
 

Truth7t7

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May 19, 2020
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The great tribulation IS the great persecution ... God's wrath is upon the persecutors.


All this is the wrath of God not tribulation, you have to distinguish the two.
You Disregard The (Two Witnesses) And The Sealed Churches Protection, Why? :)

There's Going To Be An End Times Persecution, The Beast And His Kingdom Are The Target Of God's Empowered (Two Witnesses)

The Great Tribulation Will Come Upon The Wicked World, While The (Sealed Church) Is Protected

The (Sealed Church) will be present on earth and protected, when wicked men are tormented 5 months, desiring to die as death flees

All saved believers are (Sealed) by God, Eph 1:13, 4:30

Ephesians 1:13KJV
13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,

Ephesians 4:30KJV
30 And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.

It Was Commanded, Only Those Without God's Seal, The Sealed Church Is Protected

Revelation 9:3-6KJV
3 And there came out of the smoke locusts upon the earth: and unto them was given power, as the scorpions of the earth have power.
4 And it was commanded them that they should not hurt the grass of the earth, neither any green thing, neither any tree; but only those men which have not the seal of God in their foreheads.
5 And to them it was given that they should not kill them, but that they should be tormented five months: and their torment was as the torment of a scorpion, when he striketh a man.
6 And in those days shall men seek death, and shall not find it; and shall desire to die, and death shall flee from them.

Plagues upon The Beast and his Kingdom, a remake of Moses/Aaron against Pharaoh of Egypt

Revelation 11:3-6
3 And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.
4 These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth.
5 And if any man will hurt them, fire proceedeth out of their mouth, and devoureth their enemies: and if any man will hurt them, he must in this manner be killed.
6 These have power to shut heaven, that it rain not in the days of their prophecy: and have power over waters to turn them to blood, and to smite the earth with all plagues, as often as they will.

Revelation 16:1-11KJV
1 And I heard a great voice out of the temple saying to the seven angels, Go your ways, and pour out the vials of the wrath of God upon the earth.
2 And the first went, and poured out his vial upon the earth; and there fell a noisome and grievous sore upon the men which had the mark of the beast, and upon them which worshipped his image.
3 And the second angel poured out his vial upon the sea; and it became as the blood of a dead man: and every living soul died in the sea.
4 And the third angel poured out his vial upon the rivers and fountains of waters; and they became blood.
5 And I heard the angel of the waters say, Thou art righteous, O Lord, which art, and wast, and shalt be, because thou hast judged thus.
6 For they have shed the blood of saints and prophets, and thou hast given them blood to drink; for they are worthy.
7 And I heard another out of the altar say, Even so, Lord God Almighty, true and righteous are thy judgments.
8 And the fourth angel poured out his vial upon the sun; and power was given unto him to scorch men with fire.
9 And men were scorched with great heat, and blasphemed the name of God, which hath power over these plagues: and they repented not to give him glory.
10 And the fifth angel poured out his vial upon the seat of the beast; and his kingdom was full of darkness; and they gnawed their tongues for pain,
11 And blasphemed the God of heaven because of their pains and their sores, and repented not of their deeds.
 

Evmur

Well-known member
Feb 28, 2021
5,219
2,618
113
London
christianchat.com
You Disregard The (Two Witnesses) And The Sealed Churches Protection, Why? :)

There's Going To Be An End Times Persecution, The Beast And His Kingdom Are The Target Of God's Empowered (Two Witnesses)

The Great Tribulation Will Come Upon The Wicked World, While The (Sealed Church) Is Protected

The (Sealed Church) will be present on earth and protected, when wicked men are tormented 5 months, desiring to die as death flees

All saved believers are (Sealed) by God, Eph 1:13, 4:30

Ephesians 1:13KJV
13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,

Ephesians 4:30KJV
30 And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.

It Was Commanded, Only Those Without God's Seal, The Sealed Church Is Protected

Revelation 9:3-6KJV
3 And there came out of the smoke locusts upon the earth: and unto them was given power, as the scorpions of the earth have power.
4 And it was commanded them that they should not hurt the grass of the earth, neither any green thing, neither any tree; but only those men which have not the seal of God in their foreheads.
5 And to them it was given that they should not kill them, but that they should be tormented five months: and their torment was as the torment of a scorpion, when he striketh a man.
6 And in those days shall men seek death, and shall not find it; and shall desire to die, and death shall flee from them.

Plagues upon The Beast and his Kingdom, a remake of Moses/Aaron against Pharaoh of Egypt

Revelation 11:3-6
3 And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.
4 These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth.
5 And if any man will hurt them, fire proceedeth out of their mouth, and devoureth their enemies: and if any man will hurt them, he must in this manner be killed.
6 These have power to shut heaven, that it rain not in the days of their prophecy: and have power over waters to turn them to blood, and to smite the earth with all plagues, as often as they will.

Revelation 16:1-11KJV
1 And I heard a great voice out of the temple saying to the seven angels, Go your ways, and pour out the vials of the wrath of God upon the earth.
2 And the first went, and poured out his vial upon the earth; and there fell a noisome and grievous sore upon the men which had the mark of the beast, and upon them which worshipped his image.
3 And the second angel poured out his vial upon the sea; and it became as the blood of a dead man: and every living soul died in the sea.
4 And the third angel poured out his vial upon the rivers and fountains of waters; and they became blood.
5 And I heard the angel of the waters say, Thou art righteous, O Lord, which art, and wast, and shalt be, because thou hast judged thus.
6 For they have shed the blood of saints and prophets, and thou hast given them blood to drink; for they are worthy.
7 And I heard another out of the altar say, Even so, Lord God Almighty, true and righteous are thy judgments.
8 And the fourth angel poured out his vial upon the sun; and power was given unto him to scorch men with fire.
9 And men were scorched with great heat, and blasphemed the name of God, which hath power over these plagues: and they repented not to give him glory.
10 And the fifth angel poured out his vial upon the seat of the beast; and his kingdom was full of darkness; and they gnawed their tongues for pain,
11 And blasphemed the God of heaven because of their pains and their sores, and repented not of their deeds.
Through great tribulation must we enter the kingdom of God.

The seal in Ephesians is not the seal spoken of in the revelation.

You mix up tribulation which comes from the world and God's wrath. Stop doing that.
 

lamad

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Apr 14, 2021
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Yes of course that's true, The span of time is precisely 173,880 days.

What I'm saying is the starting and end dates as interpreted to our present day Gregorian calendar, including leap years etc etc. may be slightly shifted one way or the other, including the estimate of the precise date of the command of Artaxerxes Longimanus.
I wondered about the 116 days of leap years Sir Robert Anderson added. I was at the U of I at the time as a student, so I wrote a program to calculate leap years with a beginning and ending date - just to check and see if the 116 days was correct. It was.
 

lamad

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Apr 14, 2021
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Through great tribulation must we enter the kingdom of God.

The seal in Ephesians is not the seal spoken of in the revelation.

You mix up tribulation which comes from the world and God's wrath. Stop doing that.
Right! It is not the church that is sealed in Revelation! Everyone should know that.

There is the everyday "tribulation" of the church age, and since the church age has been ongoing for 2000 years, God called it "mega" (GR) or great tribulation that the great crowd came out of before any part of the 70th week.

Then there will be the "tribulation" that people call "the 70th week. Just a title: "the tribulation."

God's wrath will be poured out all during the 70th week: the trumpet and vial judgments.

Satan's wrath will come as soon as he is cast down. The days of GT Jesus spoke of will come from Satan's wrath felt through the forced worship of the image and mark. God will cause the vials of His wrath to be poured out to shorten those days of GT. After the first 5 vials, the world will be hiding in the dark, in great pain, and no one will be intent on murdering anyone else. How long the darkness will last is anyone's guess - I guess at least until Jesus comes to Armageddon.
 

lamad

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Apr 14, 2021
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The great tribulation IS the great persecution ... God's wrath is upon the persecutors.

All this is the wrath of God not tribulation, you have to distinguish the two.
You still don't have it according to the written text. The Day of His wrath starts first, then the 70th week, causing the ENTIRE WEEK to be the wrath of God. That means every trumpet judgment and every bowl judgment will come with the wrath of God.

During the last half of the week, Satan's wrath (causing the days of GT) is added to the mix.

Oh, people CALL the 70th week, "the tribulation." It is only a title. But certainly tribulation or great pressure will be put on people during the entire week, but much more in the last half.

YOu don't think the wrath of God is going to cause great pressure upon people? How about nothing fit to drink except in stores where you can't buy without the mark?
 

lamad

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Apr 14, 2021
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You must distinguish between God's wrath and the great tribulation .
You keep saying this: please, tell us the difference in your mind: define each and what it will cause.
 

lamad

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I don't think we disagree, pre - wrath but post - trib.

I believe more folk will be martyred than raptured making up that great multitude. something very martyrish about them.

Paul said "... then we who are alive and remain .... will be caught up together with them to meet the Lord in the clouds" that "and remain" stands out to me.
Ah! So you are a prewrather! Yes, we most certainly disagree. Prewrath theory causes a complete rearranging of Revelation to fit, so is automatically proven wrong. ANY theory that must rearrange Revelation to fit will be proven wrong.

Where you have missed it: you don't know where "great tribulation" (the days Jesus talked about) are found in Revelation. You don't know where the 70th week starts. You have to move the 6th seal to chapter 19. The list goes on and on. "prewrath" theory is the worst of the worst, Started by Van Kampen and Rosenthal because they did not distinguish between the cosmic signs that come before the week and the signs "after the tribulation of those days." These are two different signs that come over 7 years apart, and are signs for different things.

That great multitude is BEFORE any part of the 70th week. They could NOT have come from the days of GT Jesus spoke of. If you know anything about Revelation, the days of GT Jesus spoke of will be caused by the wrath of Satan working through the Beast and False prophet - and they don't even rise to power until chapter 13. They don't get the mark and image created until late in chapter 14.

You have often said we have to distinguish between wrath and tribulation. The truth is, we have to distinguish between "great tribulation" (GT) before the week, speaking of the daily tribulation over the long church age, and then the days of GT Jesus spoke of that would be worse than any other time in history.
 

cv5

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I wondered about the 116 days of leap years Sir Robert Anderson added. I was at the U of I at the time as a student, so I wrote a program to calculate leap years with a beginning and ending date - just to check and see if the 116 days was correct. It was.
I agree it probably is correct. It may be possible that the beginning date (the decree of Artaxerxes) could shift slightly.