50 Reasons For a Pretribulational Rapture By Dr. John F. Walvoord

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GaryA

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In your dreams, it clearly is after the Rapture, and after the Seventieth week of Daniel in the future commences. You did not even read the 6 points by J. Vernon McGee on future events that fulfill the 70 Week Prophecies, DID YOU?
I glanced over them.

I have listened to many-a-good-message by Vernon McGee; nonetheless, like so many of the well-known preachers, his eschatology is in error.

The 70 weeks of Daniel prophecy is not about Gentiles. It is about Jews/Israel.

ALL about Israel.
ONLY about Israel.
NOT about the End Times Scenario.
 

GaryA

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You did not even read the 6 points by J. Vernon McGee on future events that fulfill the 70 Week Prophecies, DID YOU?
Should this be a good opportunity for me to reply with:

"You did not even read the study pages on my website, DID YOU?"

:rolleyes:
 

TheDivineWatermark

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QUOTE:
And till the end of the war desolations are determined. From that time on, the history of the city would be one of war and destruction. The end here means the end of the times of the Gentiles.
Believer's Bible Commentary: A Thorough, Yet Easy-to-Read Bible Commentary That Turns Complicated Theology Into Practical Understanding.
QUOTE:
would continue until the end.
Even though Israel was to be set aside, she would continue to suffer until the prophecies of the 70 "sevens" were completely fulfilled. Her sufferings span the entire period from the destruction of Jerusalem in a.d. 70 to Jerusalem's deliverance from Gentile dominion at the Second Advent of Christ.
The Bible Knowledge Commentary: An Exposition of the Scriptures by Dallas Seminary Faculty.
Right. (y)

And many people mistakenly think that the phrase "the TIMES of the Gentiles" refers to what is commonly called "the Church age" (i.e. the time of Gentiles' salvation, etc). It doesn't.

It refers to what STARTED in 606bc (think: Neb's "dream/statue/image," with Neb as "head of gold"), referring to "Gentile domination over Israel" ("Jerusalem shall be TRODDEN DOWN of the Gentiles UNTIL..."), and which will not be CONCLUDED until the "end" ( ^ ) of the far-future [7]Trib yrs (in particular, the 2nd half aka the "42 mos"--at the "end" of that, at the time of Christ's Second Coming to the earth Rev19... and YES it pertains to "Israel"... this entire prophecy in Daniel 9:24-27 pertains to "[...are DETERMINED UPON] THY [Daniel's] people, AND UPON THY [Daniel's] holy city"... right!)




[compare this Dan passage with Rom11:27 along with Isa27:9,12-13 / Matt24:29-31]
 
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Right. (y)

And many people mistakenly think that the phrase "the TIMES of the Gentiles" refers to what is commonly called "the Church age" (i.e. the time of Gentiles' salvation, etc). It doesn't.

It refers to what STARTED in 606bc (think: Neb's "dream/statue/image," with Neb as "head of gold"), referring to "Gentile domination over Israel" ("Jerusalem shall be TRODDEN DOWN of the Gentiles UNTIL..."), and which will not be CONCLUDED until the "end" ( ^ ) of the far-future [7]Trib yrs (in particular, the 2nd half aka the "42 mos"--at the "end" of that, at the time of Christ's Second Coming to the earth Rev19... and YES it pertains to "Israel"... this entire prophecy in Daniel 9:24-27 pertains to "[...are DETERMINED UPON] THY [Daniel's] people, AND UPON THY [Daniel's] holy city"... right!)




[compare this Dan passage with Rom11:27 along with Isa27:9,12-13 / Matt24:29-31]
Christ returns at an unappointed hour - indeed when he is not expected.
So having him return at the end (or middle) of a 7 year Tribulation is a total
red flag. Totally false teaching i am afraid.

the only way you can marry the 7 year tribulation with an unexpected coming is to
graft the Coming on at the start.

But you've somewhat deflated that idea by incorporating your great tribulation into the Time Of The Gentiles. as the last 7 years, so this is fails, because once you know the time of the Gentiles, you know the Time of Christ's return (TOG - 7 years).

But as the whole Great Trib concept is a total misconception, none of the above arguments need take place.
(Without the 'trib' there is no prefix. )

As has been demonstrated - the Great Tribulation is the time of Israel's destruction and diaspora, which began in AD67.

 

TheDivineWatermark

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I disagree.

I disagree that He returns at "an unappointed hour"



And what verse is that?




____________

[see also my Post #3562 (pg 179 of this thread), on that Subject: https://christianchat.com/threads/5...ure-by-dr-john-f-walvoord.198357/post-4578541 ]

Matthew 24:36 “But about that day or hour no one knows, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father.
.........42 “Therefore keep watch, because you do not know on what day your Lord will come. 43 But understand this: If the owner of the house had known at what time of night the thief was coming, he would have kept watch and would not have let his house be broken into. 44 So you also must be ready, because the Son of Man will come at an hour when you do not expect him. .............
25:13 “Therefore keep watch, because you do not know the day or the hour.


1 Thessalonians 2:5 Now, brothers and sisters, about times and dates we do not need to write to you, 2 for you know very well that the day of the Lord will come like a thief in the night. 3 While people are saying, “Peace and safety,” destruction will come on them suddenly, as labor pains on a pregnant woman, and they will not escape.
 

FreeGrace2

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Do not confuse the terms:

~ tribulation
~ judgment
~ wrath
Could you briefly define these?

And, if you will pay close attention to the 'detail', you will discover that the Bible defines some things differently than you were taught to believe.
But you don't know what I've been taught. Or learned from personal reading and study.

If you look at it in 'event' terms according to the three questions listed above - and, based on how Jesus defines/describes it - you should discover that it does not align with 'seals', 'trumpets', 'vials', etc. like you want to believe.
This is a curious comment. This is what I have learned from reading the Bible. In Rev 1:19 Jesus tells John to "write, therefore, what you have seen (the past), what is now (the present, specificially to the 7 churches) and what will take place later (future end times which is what most people call the Tribulation).

ch 4 describes what John saw in heaven. ch 5 introduces the scroll (the big one) that is the title deed to the world that Jesus owns.

ch 6 covers 6 seal judgments. Seals 1-5 represent "woe 1". The 6th seal is "woe" 2. The 7th seal "woe 3" is in ch 11.

Scholars (don't know the %) believe that ch 12-19 is the second half (3.5 yrs) of the Tribulation, for a total of 7 years. ch 16 covers the 7 bowls of God's wrath. ch 19 is about the Second Advent to commence.

As a case in point, the 'Great Tribulation' does not include-and-contain the 'seals', 'trumpets', and 'vials' within it.
Well, that's interesting. Then what, exactly, does the 'GT' include, if not any of the judgments?

And, more importantly, where do you claim the 21 judgments occur outside the 'GT'; before or after? And how do you come to that conclusion?

In 'event' terms, the 'trumpets' and 'vials' are entirely outside of (and, after) the 'Great Tribulation'.
So, which side of the 'GT'?

Just because something is a judgment - or, "is [experientially] bad" - does not mean it is part of the 'tribulation' [period].
How do you justify this claim? What evidence do you have for it?

Take the time - make the effort - examine the chart.
I examine the Scriptures. As I've shown.

It will save me having to write 100 paragraphs... :cool:(y)
I don't need 100 paragraphs. Just brief answers to my questions, if you don't mind.

Thanks.
 

TheDivineWatermark

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@OldSage , in response to your Post #3906, I'd invite you to view my two posts from another thread, where I touch on those Matthew 24 passages you present... while I'm sleeping. (And I can come back after that, to address any questions that may arise from your reading those 2-3 posts [3, if you read the one I linked there, also]... but that will save me a little bit of typing for now, when I need to hit the pillow... Thanks. = ) ):

Post #182 - https://christianchat.com/threads/j...rapture-stop-causing-fear.199566/post-4582298

Post #64 - https://christianchat.com/threads/j...rapture-stop-causing-fear.199566/post-4581222
 
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@OldSage , in response to your Post #3906, I'd invite you to view my two posts from another thread, where I touch on those Matthew 24 passages you present... while I'm sleeping. (And I can come back after that, to address any questions that may arise from your reading those 2-3 posts [3, if you read the one I linked there, also]... but that will save me a little bit of typing for now, when I need to hit the pillow... Thanks. = ) ):

Post #182 - https://christianchat.com/threads/j...rapture-stop-causing-fear.199566/post-4582298

Post #64 - https://christianchat.com/threads/j...rapture-stop-causing-fear.199566/post-4581222
Hi TDW, I hope you sleep well!

Yes I looked at one of your posts, Post #3562. You said that as of Revelation, the mystery about his return is lifted......
So then I would have to logically follow up with the obvious question.
When then?
 

cv5

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I don't really like posting here when I cannot express myself with 100% clarity, as the ethos here is not one of open discussion and a learning environment, but rather one of one-upmanship, theological badger-baiting and a carnal war to the death mentality.
However....

The translations all differ, but the gist is that 'after 62 (69 in effect) weeks the Anointed One is cut off.....'
Some translations simply replace the Anointed One with the Messiah.

Both the Church and the Temple are 'An Anointed One'.

After 69 weeks the Church and the temple system are entirely separated.
This is exactly as Jesus prophesied, and fulfills the requirements Abrahamic Covenant:

14 And the uncircumcised man child whose flesh of his foreskin is not circumcised, that soul shall be cut off from his people; he hath broken my covenant.
The wise and prudent very well know the genuine doctrine from the counterfeit....
In other words, His sheep hear His voice and follow Him....
 
Oct 23, 2020
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@OldSage , in response to your Post #3906, I'd invite you to view my two posts from another thread, where I touch on those Matthew 24 passages you present... while I'm sleeping. (And I can come back after that, to address any questions that may arise from your reading those 2-3 posts [3, if you read the one I linked there, also]... but that will save me a little bit of typing for now, when I need to hit the pillow... Thanks. = ) ):

Post #182 - https://christianchat.com/threads/j...rapture-stop-causing-fear.199566/post-4582298

Post #64 - https://christianchat.com/threads/j...rapture-stop-causing-fear.199566/post-4581222
I read the two posts TDW but they back reference other posts, which I did not read.

My understanding of the return of the Lord is very simple.
While he has gone he has given us the Holy Spirit, which leads us into all truth
and allows us direct access to the throne of Father and Son. In fact the Holy Spirit is what
defines the true Church, as it is a gift from God that he only gives to his people.

The parable of the 10 Virgins seems to be saying that while the Lord is not here, we remain,
as a Church, under the Covenant of the Holy Spirit, (Jeremiah 31:33). I don't what the alternatives are
- maybe a return to legalism - but until the Lord returns, we are to remain in the Holy Spirit.

According to my understanding of Olivet, the sign of Jesus's return is 'The Son of Man in Heaven'.
The disciples asked for the sign, and that is what Jesus replied.
After that the world mourns.
We can discuss what they mourn, but there is no time limit put on their mourning.
I knew of a woman who lost her husband in the 1st World war and she mourned her whole
life, another 70 years.

All I know is that at some point during the mourning, Jesus returns.

Regarding Noah and the 120 years.
Can we give Paul the last word:

1 Thessalonians 5: 5 But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you.
2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.
3 For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.
4 But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief.
5 Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness.
6 Therefore let us not sleep, as do others; but let us watch and be sober.


If you are about God's business like Noah, there is nothing really to worry about.
But the Noah analogy is not meant to mean that we know exactly as Noah did the time of Christ's return;
the analogy is more about Spiritually awake and spiritually dead, the prepared and the unprepared, the wise and the foolish, Kingdom workers and Kingdom shirkers.

Besides, if Noah knew exactly when the flood was coming, he would have shut the doors, but in fact it is God
who shut the doors.

16 And they that went in, went in male and female of all flesh, as God had commanded him: and the Lord shut him in.
 

Absolutely

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I read the two posts TDW but they back reference other posts, which I did not read.

My understanding of the return of the Lord is very simple.
While he has gone he has given us the Holy Spirit, which leads us into all truth
and allows us direct access to the throne of Father and Son. In fact the Holy Spirit is what
defines the true Church, as it is a gift from God that he only gives to his people.

The parable of the 10 Virgins seems to be saying that while the Lord is not here, we remain,
as a Church, under the Covenant of the Holy Spirit, (Jeremiah 31:33). I don't what the alternatives are
- maybe a return to legalism - but until the Lord returns, we are to remain in the Holy Spirit.

According to my understanding of Olivet, the sign of Jesus's return is 'The Son of Man in Heaven'.
The disciples asked for the sign, and that is what Jesus replied.
After that the world mourns.
We can discuss what they mourn, but there is no time limit put on their mourning.
I knew of a woman who lost her husband in the 1st World war and she mourned her whole
life, another 70 years.

All I know is that at some point during the mourning, Jesus returns.

Regarding Noah and the 120 years.
Can we give Paul the last word:

1 Thessalonians 5: 5 But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you.
2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.
3 For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.
4 But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief.
5 Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness.
6 Therefore let us not sleep, as do others; but let us watch and be sober.


If you are about God's business like Noah, there is nothing really to worry about.
But the Noah analogy is not meant to mean that we know exactly as Noah did the time of Christ's return;
the analogy is more about Spiritually awake and spiritually dead, the prepared and the unprepared, the wise and the foolish, Kingdom workers and Kingdom shirkers.

Besides, if Noah knew exactly when the flood was coming, he would have shut the doors, but in fact it is God
who shut the doors.

16 And they that went in, went in male and female of all flesh, as God had commanded him: and the Lord shut him in.
Interesting point.
Because that means we can know " after the flood" when he returns to earth with his saints as foretold in rev14.

Nobody knows the day or hour must be a mistake, or of course the coming on white horses is not the rapture
 

Absolutely

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QUOTE
"""
If you are about God's business like Noah, there is nothing really to worry about.
But the Noah analogy is not meant to mean that we know exactly as Noah did the time of Christ's return;
the analogy is more about Spiritually awake and spiritually dead, the prepared and the unprepared, the wise and the foolish, Kingdom workers and Kingdom shirkers.

Besides, if Noah knew exactly when the flood was coming, he would have shut the doors, but in fact it is God
who shut the doors.

16 And they that went in, went in male and female of all flesh, as God had commanded him: and the Lord shut him in."""

NICE!!!

I TOO AM PRETRIB RAPTURE ADHERENT !!!!!
 

VCO

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Should this be a good opportunity for me to reply with:

"You did not even read the study pages on my website, DID YOU?"

:rolleyes:

Do you know what I think of your KJV ONLY Theology ? ? ? No offense intended, but it appears to me you have been Led astray by a handful of KJV ONLY zealots who believe they must HAVE Faith in the KJV Bible, no matter how many Errors it leads you into. I have told you the Truth on all subjects. You will not listen or even read something that comes from another version. How come there were at least five other ENGLISH Translations, before the KJV. So how come you are not faithful to one of them ? ? ? You do not even know this, but I was once a KJV believer. I woke up when I first saw what the Translators actually said about their own VERISON. I know some of my words will be Shocking to an actual KJV ONLY BELIEVER. It is my personal Opinion. that most KJV ONLY believers, have PUT the KJV BIBLE WAY TO HIGH ON THE PEDISTAL.

revising that which hath bene laboured by others, . . . {That is a Paraphrase, and not an actual Translation.}

But how shall men meditate in that, which they cannot understand? {That is a prescription for replacing a Know Error for Another.}

the Seventy Interpreters, . . . among the Gentiles by written ERRORS preaching . . . {That is more proof that Errors still exist in the KJV.}

the Seventie were Interpreters, they were not Prophets; they did many things well, as learned men; but yet as men they stumbled and fell, one while through oversight, another while through ignorance, yea, sometimes they may be noted to adde to the Originall, and sometimes to take from it; {That accounts for the KNOWN ERRORS, but what about UNKNOWN ERRORS.}

. . . the same will shine as gold more brightly, being rubbed and polished; also, if anything be halting, or superfluous, or not so agreeable to the original, the same may be corrected, and the truth set in place. {KNOWN ERRORS, but they were taken from 5 older BIBLE in English, with Known Errors, Checked with the Septuagint with KNOWN ERRORS, and checked with LATIN BIBLE with KNOW ERRORS. OH MY! No wonder why they were in hurry to REVISE, the ORIGINAL 1611 PREFACE. BUT THERE IS MORE.}

For to whom ever was it imputed for a fault (by such as were wise) to goe over that which hee had done, and to amend it where he saw cause? . . . {That certainly is a genuine Paraphrase and not a Genuine Translation out of an original language Bibles.}

But the difference that appeareth betweene our Translations, and our often correcting of them, is the thing that wee are specially charged with; let us see therefore whether they themselves bee without fault this way, (if it be to be counted a fault, to correct) and whether they bee fit men to throw stones at us: {That SAME supposed ERROR the 1611 Translation TEAM was accused of, is the SAME ERROR modern KJV ONLY believers have discounted nearly EVERY English Genuine Translation, because it in some places contradicts what they falsely believe the KJV is saying, INSTEAD OF WHAT GOD IS ACTUALLY SAYING.}

Truly (good Christian Reader) wee never thought from the beginning, that we should neede to make a new Translation, nor yet to make of a bad one a good one, . . . but to make a good one better, or out of many good ones, one principall good one, not justly to be excepted against; that hath bene our indeavour, that our marke. . . .

{That makes it a PARAPHRASE and not an actual Translation from the original languages.}

Now that is only the Negative part of the KJV. YES THE KJV IS THE BEST PARAPHRASED VERSION on the market today.
Yes it is true at one time I was well on the way to becoming a KJV ONLY BELIEVER, but I woke up.


My favorite Translation today is HCSB, followed by NASB, ESV, NKJV, NRSV, ASV, NIV, NCV, RSV, NJB, and YLT.

I have no problem with using any of them.
 

cv5

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Should this be a good opportunity for me to reply with:

"You did not even read the study pages on my website, DID YOU?"

:rolleyes:
I haven't either. I know the genuine authentic doctrine. No need to inspect the counterfeits. Sorry if that sounds harsh.
 

GaryA

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I haven't either. I know the genuine authentic doctrine. No need to inspect the counterfeits. Sorry if that sounds harsh.
I said that to him only to make a point - I don't "demand" that anyone read my web pages. Of course, they are there for anyone to read if they wish.
 

GaryA

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The 70 weeks of Daniel prophecy is not about Gentiles. It is about Jews/Israel.

ALL about Israel.
ONLY about Israel.
NOT about the End Times Scenario.
What the prophecy is about:

~ the sins of Israel
~ the crucifixion of Christ
~ the remedy for redemption
~ the desolation of Jerusalem
~ the war during the aftermath
~ Jesus confirming the covenant

What the prophecy is not about:

~ an/the/any antichrist
~ 7-year treaty with Israel
~ treaty broken in middle of 7 years
~ 70th week separated from others
~ Abomination of Desolation
~ End Times Scenario

Absolutely none of the things in the 'not' list are present in Daniel 9:24-27.
 

VCO

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I glanced over them.

I have listened to many-a-good-message by Vernon McGee; nonetheless, like so many of the well-known preachers, his eschatology is in error.

The 70 weeks of Daniel prophecy is not about Gentiles. It is about Jews/Israel.

ALL about Israel.
ONLY about Israel.
NOT about the End Times Scenario.
1624025111132.jpeg

No his eschatology is dead on, and yours is in error. How do I know that he has it RIGHT ? ? ?

Matthew 20:16 (NASB)
16 "So the last shall be first, and the first last."

That certainly applies to Covenants.

Therefore the 70th Week of Daniel, all about ISRAEL, is about to begin; but we have to be Called to Heaven, for the Wedding of the LAMB, first.
 
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View attachment 228778

No his eschatology is dead on, and yours is in error. How do I know that he has it RIGHT ? ? ?

Matthew 20:16 (NASB)
16 "So the last shall be first, and the first last."

That certainly applies to Covenants.

Therefore the 70th Week of Daniel, all about ISRAEL, is about to begin; but we have to be Called to Heaven, for the Wedding of the LAMB, first.
Well if we go by covenants, then the whole point is for Israel to have had time to consider their punishment.
Late stage punishment of the Jews, aka 'The Gweat Twibulation" is strictly off menu.

Straight up anti-semitic I call it

Deuteronomy 29-30

All the curses written in this book will descend on them, and the Lord will blot out their names from under heaven. 21 The Lord will single them out from all the tribes of Israel for calamity, in accordance with all the curses of the covenant written in this book of the law. 22 The next generation, your children who rise up after you, as well as the foreigner who comes from a distant country, will see the devastation of that land and the afflictions with which the Lord has afflicted it— 23 all its soil burned out by sulfur and salt, nothing planted, nothing sprouting, unable to support any vegetation, like the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah, Admah and Zeboiim, which the Lord destroyed in his fierce anger— 24 they and indeed all the nations will wonder, “Why has the Lord done thus to this land? What caused this great display of anger?” 25 They will conclude, “It is because they abandoned the covenant of the Lord, the God of their ancestors, which he made with them when he brought them out of the land of Egypt. 26 They turned and served other gods, worshiping them, gods whom they had not known and whom he had not allotted to them; 27 so the anger of the Lord was kindled against that land, bringing on it every curse written in this book. 28 The Lord uprooted them from their land in anger, fury, and great wrath, and cast them into another land, as is now the case.” 29 The secret things belong to the Lord our God, but the revealed things belong to us and to our children forever, to observe all the words of this law. When all these things have happened to you, the blessings and the curses that I have set before you, if you call them to mind among all the nations where the Lord your God has driven you, 2 and return to the Lord your God, and you and your children obey him with all your heart and with all your soul, just as I am commanding you today, 3 then the Lord your God will restore your fortunes and have compassion on you, gathering you again from all the peoples among whom the Lord your God has scattered you.

I don't call sticking the 70th week into the future particularly compassionate
 

TheDivineWatermark

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Hi TDW, I hope you sleep well!
Thanks. I did.

Slept like a baby. lol

Yes I looked at one of your posts, Post #3562. You said that as of Revelation, the mystery about his return is lifted......
So then I would have to logically follow up with the obvious question.
When then?
Without going into my whole study of the "chronology" (of Rev), I'll just say that I addressed that (in part) in my Post #1607 (pg 81 of this thread, on Apr 27), about 3/4 of the way down in that post, where I start out with the words, "...and when you consider that "kings went [/go]..."

Post #1607 - https://christianchat.com/threads/5...ure-by-dr-john-f-walvoord.198357/post-4542536



See if that helps... = )