50 Reasons For a Pretribulational Rapture By Dr. John F. Walvoord

  • Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.

    If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!

    To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.
Oct 23, 2020
971
164
43
Thanks. I did.

Slept like a baby. lol



Without going into my whole study of the "chronology" (of Rev), I'll just say that I addressed that (in part) in my Post #1607 (pg 81 of this thread, on Apr 27), about 3/4 of the way down in that post, where I start out with the words, "...and when you consider that "kings went [/go]..."

Post #1607 - https://christianchat.com/threads/5...ure-by-dr-john-f-walvoord.198357/post-4542536



See if that helps... = )
You haven't . You've just ducked a very simple question.

Again - You said that in Revelation Jesus lifts the lid on the time of his return.


So:

When exactly does he return?
 

TheDivineWatermark

Well-known member
Aug 3, 2018
7,019
1,379
113
^ @OldSage, "[The] Revelation of Jesus Christ, which GOD GAVE UNTO HIM [/unto Jesus], TO SHEW UNTO His servants things which must come to pass IN QUICKNESS [NOUN]" - Rev1:1 [/ 4:1 / 1:19c]... this is saying that what God did not disclose to even JESUS during His earthly ministry BEFORE His death, He now HAS given to Jesus TO DISCLOSE (in the Revelation).

So Jesus provides that "further information" (on that very Subject-Matt24:36 and parallels) THEREIN (in Rev).

I pointed out that Revelation has numerous time-stamps and timing-indicators throughout it, and this (what I'd said there) is one of those (re: Rev19 and His "RETURN" to the earth, at that point in the chronology).

But I'm not going to spell out that answer FOR you. ;)



[note: "knoweth [PERFECT indicative] no man [not even Jesus]" is NOT saying "no one WILL ever know," or "no one CAN ever know"... Jesus has known ever since His ascension / exaltation, and He LATER provided "further information" on THAT SUBJECT, in His LATER 95ad "Revelation" (providing a slew of time-stamps / timing-indicators--some more readily apparent than others, so quite a bit more than is commonly recognized within this text--and ALL of which add up to the "IN QUICKNESS [NOUN]" [future] time-period [aka the 7-yrs / "ONE WEEK" / 2520 days])]
 
Oct 23, 2020
971
164
43
^ @OldSage, "[The] Revelation of Jesus Christ, which GOD GAVE UNTO HIM [/unto Jesus], TO SHEW UNTO His servants things which must come to pass IN QUICKNESS [NOUN]" - Rev1:1 [/ 4:1 / 1:19c]... this is saying that what God did not disclose to even JESUS during His earthly ministry BEFORE His death, He now HAS given to Jesus TO DISCLOSE (in the Revelation).

So Jesus provides that "further information" (on that very Subject-Matt24:36 and parallels) THEREIN (in Rev).

I pointed out that Revelation has numerous time-stamps and timing-indicators throughout it, and this (what I'd said there) is one of those (re: Rev19 and His "RETURN" to the earth, at that point in the chronology).

But I'm not going to spell out that answer FOR you. ;)



[note: "knoweth [PERFECT indicative] no man [not even Jesus]" is NOT saying "no one WILL ever know," or "no one CAN ever know"... Jesus has known ever since His ascension / exaltation, and He LATER provided "further information" on THAT SUBJECT, in His LATER 95ad "Revelation" (providing a slew of time-stamps / timing-indicators--some more readily apparent than others, so quite a bit more than is commonly recognized within this text--and ALL of which add up to the "IN QUICKNESS [NOUN]" [future] time-period [aka the 7-yrs / "ONE WEEK" / 2520 days])]

..........and answer came there none.............we are still waiting TDW

When does Jesus return? Or are you scared of becoming an apocalyptic cult leader?
 

VCO

Senior Member
Oct 14, 2013
11,200
4,161
113
What the prophecy is about:

~ the sins of Israel
~ the crucifixion of Christ
~ the remedy for redemption
~ the desolation of Jerusalem
~ the war during the aftermath
~ Jesus confirming the covenant

What the prophecy is not about:

~ an/the/any antichrist
~ 7-year treaty with Israel
~ treaty broken in middle of 7 years
~ 70th week separated from others
~ Abomination of Desolation
~ End Times Scenario

Absolutely none of the things in the 'not' list are present in Daniel 9:24-27.

I SUSPECT, You will see the Abomination of Desolation begin LIVE on every TV NEWS.

WE WILL NOT BE THERE! We will be in the attendance at the WEDDING of CHRIST in Heaven.


My turn to ask a question.

Explain the details of how one becomes Born Again ? ? ?
 

VCO

Senior Member
Oct 14, 2013
11,200
4,161
113
Well if we go by covenants, then the whole point is for Israel to have had time to consider their punishment.
Late stage punishment of the Jews, aka 'The Gweat Twibulation" is strictly off menu.

Straight up anti-semitic I call it

Deuteronomy 29-30

All the curses written in this book will descend on them, and the Lord will blot out their names from under heaven. 21 The Lord will single them out from all the tribes of Israel for calamity, in accordance with all the curses of the covenant written in this book of the law. 22 The next generation, your children who rise up after you, as well as the foreigner who comes from a distant country, will see the devastation of that land and the afflictions with which the Lord has afflicted it— 23 all its soil burned out by sulfur and salt, nothing planted, nothing sprouting, unable to support any vegetation, like the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah, Admah and Zeboiim, which the Lord destroyed in his fierce anger— 24 they and indeed all the nations will wonder, “Why has the Lord done thus to this land? What caused this great display of anger?” 25 They will conclude, “It is because they abandoned the covenant of the Lord, the God of their ancestors, which he made with them when he brought them out of the land of Egypt. 26 They turned and served other gods, worshiping them, gods whom they had not known and whom he had not allotted to them; 27 so the anger of the Lord was kindled against that land, bringing on it every curse written in this book. 28 The Lord uprooted them from their land in anger, fury, and great wrath, and cast them into another land, as is now the case.” 29 The secret things belong to the Lord our God, but the revealed things belong to us and to our children forever, to observe all the words of this law. When all these things have happened to you, the blessings and the curses that I have set before you, if you call them to mind among all the nations where the Lord your God has driven you, 2 and return to the Lord your God, and you and your children obey him with all your heart and with all your soul, just as I am commanding you today, 3 then the Lord your God will restore your fortunes and have compassion on you, gathering you again from all the peoples among whom the Lord your God has scattered you.

I don't call sticking the 70th week into the future particularly compassionate

Hebrews 9:27 (NKJV)
27 And as it is appointed for men to die once, but after this the judgment,

I suspect ENOCH and ELIJAH will be the Two Witnesses of Revelation, they do signs and wonder, because ISRAEL Requires a Sign. They will be recognized by ISRAEL, probably by the WILL OF GOD. So their MINISTRY is to bring the remaining Jews to BELIEVE JESUS is their MESSIAH. The Antichrist will be busy chopping of their heads as quick as he can catch them.

Revelation 20:4 (HCSB)
4 Then I saw thrones, and people seated on them who were given authority to judge. ⌊I⌋ also ⌊saw⌋ the people who had been beheaded because of their testimony about Jesus and because of God’s word, who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and who had not accepted the mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with the Messiah for 1,000 years.

We will not see the TWO WITNESSES, as Christ will have CALLED us to go to the WEDDING In Heaven, before that.

1624065088781.png

You know, I thought you had your head on pretty straight, but now I see it is slightly to the side.
 

Runningman

Well-known member
Mar 4, 2020
2,392
1,607
113
..........and answer came there none.............we are still waiting TDW

When does Jesus return? Or are you scared of becoming an apocalyptic cult leader?
Major milestone will be the presence of a third temple complete with temple operations: sacrifices, ceremonies, etc. In theory, it should be a matter of plugging in the numbers - that is assuming that as soon as the third temple is operational that the count down clock begins. Can't make that assumption so back at square one, in my opinion.

However, there is no definitive scripture, as far as I know, that proclaims for what period of time the third temple is present before it has an abomination of desolation.

According to scriptures, there will be signs accompanying this period. When you see the the "two witnesses" show up for 3.5 years you know things are getting serious. One that note, there will likely be many false prophets and false Christs to muddy the waters.

Of course, we don't know when all of these different prophecies will converge and coalesce, but the Bible does give enough specific numbers and markers to get a very specific idea when certain events should happen once the conditions are present.

I think that's what Jesus meant when He said that no one knows, not even Himself, save the Father, when He returns will be.

That being said, I'm against making predictions of specific days and times. I think that's bad.
 

cv5

Well-known member
Nov 20, 2018
8,563
4,754
113
Rev 10:7
But in the ***DAYS*** of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as He has declared to His servants the prophets.

Certainly no instantaneous action of Saints being resurrected in this verse either. Post tribbers holding an empty bag again........:whistle:
 

ewq1938

Well-known member
Oct 18, 2018
1,511
378
83
Rev 10:7
But in the ***DAYS*** of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as He has declared to His servants the prophets.

Certainly no instantaneous action of Saints being resurrected in this verse either. Post tribbers holding an empty bag again........:whistle:

The old english the KJV uses is always causing issues:

"in the days" simply means the "time of"...the moment when the 7th trump starts to sound then the mystery of God will be finished.

This is simply what it is saying:

Revelation 10:7


(CEV) God told his secret plans to his servants the prophets, and it will all happen by the time the seventh angel sounds his trumpet."

(GNB) But when the seventh angel blows his trumpet, then God will accomplish his secret plan, as he announced to his servants, the prophets."

(ISV) When the time approaches for the seventh angel to blow his trumpet, God's secret plan will be fulfilled, as he had announced to his servants, the prophets."

The 7th trump isn't going to sound for days and days like the KJV makes it seem.

Luk_17:26 And as it was in the days of Noe, so shall it be also in the days of the Son of man.

Here again is the same issue making it seem that the second coming is several days when it's a moment of a day.
 
Oct 23, 2020
971
164
43
Hebrews 9:27 (NKJV)
27 And as it is appointed for men to die once, but after this the judgment,

I suspect ENOCH and ELIJAH will be the Two Witnesses of Revelation, they do signs and wonder, because ISRAEL Requires a Sign. They will be recognized by ISRAEL, probably by the WILL OF GOD. So their MINISTRY is to bring the remaining Jews to BELIEVE JESUS is their MESSIAH. The Antichrist will be busy chopping of their heads as quick as he can catch them.

Revelation 20:4 (HCSB)
4 Then I saw thrones, and people seated on them who were given authority to judge. ⌊I⌋ also ⌊saw⌋ the people who had been beheaded because of their testimony about Jesus and because of God’s word, who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and who had not accepted the mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with the Messiah for 1,000 years.

We will not see the TWO WITNESSES, as Christ will have CALLED us to go to the WEDDING In Heaven, before that.

View attachment 228784

You know, I thought you had your head on pretty straight, but now I see it is slightly to the side.
Being right on one thing doesn't mean I can't be wrong on lots of others...
And it was not a personal remark - just an observation about a certain doctrine
and how it in reality plays out
 

cv5

Well-known member
Nov 20, 2018
8,563
4,754
113
The old english the KJV uses is always causing issues:

"in the days" simply means the "time of"...the moment when the 7th trump starts to sound then the mystery of God will be finished.

This is simply what it is saying:

Revelation 10:7


(CEV) God told his secret plans to his servants the prophets, and it will all happen by the time the seventh angel sounds his trumpet."

(GNB) But when the seventh angel blows his trumpet, then God will accomplish his secret plan, as he announced to his servants, the prophets."

(ISV) When the time approaches for the seventh angel to blow his trumpet, God's secret plan will be fulfilled, as he had announced to his servants, the prophets."

The 7th trump isn't going to sound for days and days like the KJV makes it seem.

Luk_17:26 And as it was in the days of Noe, so shall it be also in the days of the Son of man.

Here again is the same issue making it seem that the second coming is several days when it's a moment of a day.
Nope. You are absolutely wrong about that.

Strongs G2250.
As used in Rev 10:7, the context definitely indicates "days" in the way anyone would naturally think of it. Go ahead and look at all of those 389 Scriptural references.
Mat 2:1, Mat 3:1.........etc etc etc.

Mat 4:2
And when he had fasted for 40 ***DAYS*** and 40 nights, He was afterward an hungered.
 

cv5

Well-known member
Nov 20, 2018
8,563
4,754
113
Well if we go by covenants, then the whole point is for Israel to have had time to consider their punishment.
Late stage punishment of the Jews, aka 'The Gweat Twibulation" is strictly off menu.

Straight up anti-semitic I call it

Deuteronomy 29-30

All the curses written in this book will descend on them, and the Lord will blot out their names from under heaven. 21 The Lord will single them out from all the tribes of Israel for calamity, in accordance with all the curses of the covenant written in this book of the law. 22 The next generation, your children who rise up after you, as well as the foreigner who comes from a distant country, will see the devastation of that land and the afflictions with which the Lord has afflicted it— 23 all its soil burned out by sulfur and salt, nothing planted, nothing sprouting, unable to support any vegetation, like the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah, Admah and Zeboiim, which the Lord destroyed in his fierce anger— 24 they and indeed all the nations will wonder, “Why has the Lord done thus to this land? What caused this great display of anger?” 25 They will conclude, “It is because they abandoned the covenant of the Lord, the God of their ancestors, which he made with them when he brought them out of the land of Egypt. 26 They turned and served other gods, worshiping them, gods whom they had not known and whom he had not allotted to them; 27 so the anger of the Lord was kindled against that land, bringing on it every curse written in this book. 28 The Lord uprooted them from their land in anger, fury, and great wrath, and cast them into another land, as is now the case.” 29 The secret things belong to the Lord our God, but the revealed things belong to us and to our children forever, to observe all the words of this law. When all these things have happened to you, the blessings and the curses that I have set before you, if you call them to mind among all the nations where the Lord your God has driven you, 2 and return to the Lord your God, and you and your children obey him with all your heart and with all your soul, just as I am commanding you today, 3 then the Lord your God will restore your fortunes and have compassion on you, gathering you again from all the peoples among whom the Lord your God has scattered you.

I don't call sticking the 70th week into the future particularly compassionate
None of that makes any sense whatsoever.
This thread has reached a new low with posts like that.......:cry:
 

ewq1938

Well-known member
Oct 18, 2018
1,511
378
83
Nope. You are absolutely wrong about that.

No, I'm not wrong. Neither the 7th trump nor the second coming is for several days. The trump sounds and is done which signals the second coming which happens right away. At the end of that one day, Satan will be imprisoned and the two beasts and their army will be destroyed. Then the thousand year reign begins.
 

cv5

Well-known member
Nov 20, 2018
8,563
4,754
113
No, I'm not wrong. Neither the 7th trump nor the second coming is for several days. The trump sounds and is done which signals the second coming which happens right away. At the end of that one day, Satan will be imprisoned and the two beasts and their army will be destroyed. Then the thousand year reign begins.
There is absolutely nothing there in the text that supports your opinion.
Yes it's "days" alright...
 

ewq1938

Well-known member
Oct 18, 2018
1,511
378
83
There is absolutely nothing there in the text that supports your opinion.
Yes it's "days" alright...
And that's before it sounds anyways. It doesn't sound for days.
 

cv5

Well-known member
Nov 20, 2018
8,563
4,754
113
Agreed. THAT kind of "bow" aka "the battle bow" (its last 3 occurrences in the OT)


That kind of "bow" (the "battle bow" kind, with arrows) is also used:

--in contexts speaking of a "DECEITFUL bow" - Psalm 78:9 / Hosea 7:16

--in contexts speaking of "bend THEIR TONGUES like bows; LIES prevail over truth in the land. For they proceed from evil to evil, and they do not take Me into account,” declares the LORD." - Jeremiah 9:3

--in contexts speaking of "The WICKED have drawn out the sword, and have bent their bow, to cast down the poor and needy, and to slay such as be of upright conversation." - Psalm 11:2 / 37:14

[etc...]

Likewise, there are a number of verses speaking of "ARROWS" in the same way ('lies' /'deceit').


Jesus says, in Matt24:4 / Mk13:5 "Take heed, lest A CERTAIN ONE [G5100 - tis] *deceive* you, FOR MANY will come in My name saying..." (i.e. the INITIAL "birth PANG [SINGULAR]" OF "the beginning of birth PANGS [PLURAL]" [with many more following on from THOSE], where the INITIAL ONE, Paul says [1Th5:2-3] is at the *ARRIVAL* of the DOTL time-period, aka the START of the TRIB YRS! aka SEAL #1... aka the "whose COMING [/ARRIVAL / ADVENT / PRESENCE / parousia] is after the working of Satan" [lying wonders... deceivableness...] of "the man of sin" 2Th2:9a, IN HIS TIME [the "IN THE NIGHT / DARK / DARKNESS" time-period, aka the first aspect of "the DOTL," meaning the "7 TRIB yrs"] )


... and which SEAL #1 which Rev1:1 / 1:19c / 4:1 says (when you COMPARE THE GREEK):

--that 'mello [SURE to / CERTAIN to]' MEANS the same as "MUST";
--and "TO SHEW UNTO" = "I WILL SHEW YOU";
--and "things which must come to pass AFTER THESE THINGS" = "things which must come to pass IN QUICKNESS [NOUN]" in CONTRAST TO "the things WHICH ARE" which are NOT said to be "things which must come to pass IN QUICKNESS [NOUN]"),

... that this is speaking of the specific, future, LIMITED time-period [the 7 yrs] that both Rom16:20 ("CRUSH Satan UNDER YOUR FEET *IN QUICKNESS [NOUN]*") and Lk18:8 ("AVENGE *IN QUICKNESS [NOUN]*") ALSO speak to! [not speaking of "NOW"... but FOLLOWING "our Rapture"];

...and when you consider that the "4 living creatures" are described in the SAME WAY that the "4-directional plotment" of Israel is described in the OT (so, concerning "earthly-located" matters), but interestingly enough, also specific "time-stamp-related" things (each of the "4 living creatures," that is);

... and when you consider that this is when Jesus will 'STAND to JUDGE" Isa3:13, Rev5:9 etc;

...and when you consider that 5:6 states "seven Spirits of God HAVING BEEN SENT [PERFECT participle] out into/unto all the earth" can just as easily mean, FOLLOWING "our Rapture / THE Departure";

...and when you consider that "kings went [/go] out to battle" at a VERY SPECIFIC point-in-time/date (in Scripture), think: Jesus in Rev19, then counting back precisely "2520 days," one can see that the Rev5:6 "context"/setting ("[saw IN THE MIDST of the throne and of the 4 living creatures and IN THE MIDST of the elders (i.e. UP IN Heaven)] a Lamb STANDING as HAVING BEEN SLAIN [PERFECT participle]...") is also pinpointing a particular calendar date [but not back in "32ad," see;) ])





--way too much more to say about this topic... but as you can see, I remain unconvinced of your viewpoint that the SEALS have been unfolding since the first century. No.



[BTW, I *disagree* that the "a great multitude... of all the nations" (Rev7:9,14) coming out of "THE GREAT tribulation" (i.e. the SECOND HALF of the 7 yrs) are "the Church WHICH IS HIS BODY"... NO. Disagree!]
Interestingly the four Zoe are always describing things that are occurring upon the earth. On the other hand the 24 elders are always describing things that are occurring in heaven.
 
Oct 23, 2020
971
164
43
Major milestone will be the presence of a third temple complete with temple operations: sacrifices, ceremonies, etc. In theory, it should be a matter of plugging in the numbers - that is assuming that as soon as the third temple is operational that the count down clock begins. Can't make that assumption so back at square one, in my opinion.

However, there is no definitive scripture, as far as I know, that proclaims for what period of time the third temple is present before it has an abomination of desolation.

According to scriptures, there will be signs accompanying this period. When you see the the "two witnesses" show up for 3.5 years you know things are getting serious. One that note, there will likely be many false prophets and false Christs to muddy the waters.

Of course, we don't know when all of these different prophecies will converge and coalesce, but the Bible does give enough specific numbers and markers to get a very specific idea when certain events should happen once the conditions are present.

I think that's what Jesus meant when He said that no one knows, not even Himself, save the Father, when He returns will be.

That being said, I'm against making predictions of specific days and times. I think that's bad.
But what if the Church overcomes the Antichrist?
What if the the Church filling the earth is what really precedes Jesus return?

According to Matthew the world understands that Jesus is Christ
And then they are convicted of sin and are penitent

This is the last thing that happens before Christ returns
 

cv5

Well-known member
Nov 20, 2018
8,563
4,754
113
No, I'm not wrong. Neither the 7th trump nor the second coming is for several days. The trump sounds and is done which signals the second coming which happens right away. At the end of that one day, Satan will be imprisoned and the two beasts and their army will be destroyed. Then the thousand year reign begins.
The seventh trumpet does NOT ***immediately*** herald the Second Advent. Where in the world did you ever get that idea?
 

cv5

Well-known member
Nov 20, 2018
8,563
4,754
113
But what if the Church overcomes the Antichrist?
What if the the Church filling the earth is what really precedes Jesus return?

According to Matthew the world understands that Jesus is Christ
And then they are convicted of sin and are penitent

This is the last thing that happens before Christ returns
What if the Church is raptured before the tribulation even begins? I think deep down inside you're begging the question aren't you? Actually I think most other post-tribbers are too.
 

Runningman

Well-known member
Mar 4, 2020
2,392
1,607
113
But what if the Church overcomes the Antichrist?
What if the the Church filling the earth is what really precedes Jesus return?

According to Matthew the world understands that Jesus is Christ
And then they are convicted of sin and are penitent

This is the last thing that happens before Christ returns
Good question, but per 2 Thessalonians 2 I am convinced of a more pessimistic series of events. I believe there will be large-scale apostasy taking place in the church prior to the revealing of the anti-Christ. Of course this won't happen overnight, but I think apostasy will reach a critical mass, so to speak, where enough "salt and light" of the world will be removed to give way to moral and spiritual decay not seen since the days of Noah.

Wickedness filled the earth. I think it'll get bad, but not sure exactly what it'll look like. I think it's pretty bad now, but I imagine it'll be more like wickedness on steroids where every single last thought of people are abominations.