A Double Standard in Christianity?
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Wow. Just wow. we have so regressed. Every single verse is about how a man is over a woman, as if she is somehow beneath him. The verse saying a woman shouldn't have authority over a man is about the husband and wife relationship--it is compared to Adam and EVE--who were MARRIED--not Men universal. And why is this? It's because Eve sinned first. Women were the first to witness his resurrection. Paul called many of them his "co-workers who worked hard alongside me" and used the same word Diakonos for them-- the same as the men NO mention of any of the verses about the great women of the bible--not ONE.
How a true Christian man see a woman as 'less than' is beyond me--instead of thinking she is God's gift to him "He who finds a wife finds a good thing." I will be posting separately on this forum the notable women of the bible.
The Proverbs Woman---this was written over 3000 years ago
A wife of noble character who can find?
She is worth far more than rubies.
11Her husband has full confidence in her
and lacks nothing of value.
12She brings him good, not harm,
all the days of her life.
13She selects wool and flax
and works with eager hands.
14She is like the merchant ships,
bringing her food from afar.
15She gets up while it is still night;
she provides food for her family
and portions for her female servants.
16She considers a field and buys it;
out of her earnings she plants a vineyard.
17She sets about her work vigorously;
her arms are strong for her tasks.
18She sees that her trading is profitable,
and her lamp does not go out at night.
19In her hand she holds the distaff
and grasps the spindle with her fingers.
20She opens her arms to the poor
and extends her hands to the needy.
21When it snows, she has no fear for her household;
for all of them are clothed in scarlet.
22She makes coverings for her bed;
she is clothed in fine linen and purple.
23Her husband is respected at the city gate,
where he takes his seat among the elders of the land.
24She makes linen garments and sells them,
and supplies the merchants with sashes.
25She is clothed with strength and dignity;
she can laugh at the days to come.
26She speaks with wisdom,
and faithful instruction is on her tongue.
27She watches over the affairs of her household
and does not eat the bread of idleness.
28Her children arise and call her blessed;
her husband also, and he praises her:
29“Many women do noble things,
but you surpass them all.”
30Charm is deceptive, and beauty is fleeting;
but a woman who fears the Lord is to be praised.
31Honor her for all that her hands have done,
and let her works bring her praise at the city gate.
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Notable women in the Old Testament
That's just a few...I'm sure I missed some.
- Deborah, Judge
- Jael, won a battle by killing Sisera
- Abigail, who saved the lives of the men of her household when David was going to kill them
- Esther, who saved the Jewish nation from annihilation
- Rahab the prostitute who helped save the Israelite spies and was included in the lineage of Jesus
- Ruth who joins her mother in law, Naomi away from her own people and is in the lineage of Jesus
That's just a few...I'm sure I missed some.
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Women of the New Testament Paul Mentions
Paul was not a misogynist. He did not hate or mistrust women. Far from it!
Paul valued Priscilla, Euodia, and Syntyche as his co-workers in gospel ministry.
Paul refers to Junia as a fellow Jew, his fellow prisoner, and as outstanding among the apostles.
He commends Phoebe to the church at Rome as our sister, as minister or deacon of the church at Cenchrea, and as a patron of many. He also entrusted to Phoebe his letter to the Romans.
He acknowledges positively the ministry labours of Mary of Rome, Tryphena, Tryphosa, and Persis. He loved Persis.
He warmly mentions no less than ten women in Romans chapter 16. Paul had met some of these women when his and their journeys had intersected. Other women in Romans 16, such as Julia, hosted house churches in Rome.
He took seriously a report from Chloe of Corinth‘s people.
He passed on greetings from Claudia of Rome and sent greetings to Apphia of Colossae.
He recognised the house church of Nympha in Laodicea and asked that greetings be passed on to her and her church.
He accepted the hospitality of Lydia in Philippi and held meetings of the fledgeling Philippian congregation in her home.
He respected the faith and teaching of Lois and Eunice.
At least eighteen women are mentioned in the Pauline letters; sixteen are identified by name. Paul mentions some of these women along with a male relative, but most are mentioned independently of a man. Moreover, Paul used his favourite ministry terms: coworker, deacon/minister (diakonos), and apostle, for both male and female ministry colleagues.
Paul valued the ministry of women!
Here is a list, in alphabetical order, of the eighteen women in Paul’s letters, plus Lydia.
Apphia (Phlm. 1:2), Chloe (1 Cor. 1:11), Claudia (2 Tim. 4:21), Eunice (2 Tim. 1:5); Euodia (Php. 4:2-3), Julia (Rom. 16:15), Junia (Rom. 16:7 NIV), Lois (2 Tim. 1:5), Mary (Rom. 16:6), Nereus’ sister (Rom. 16:15), Nympha (Col. 4:15), Persis (Rom. 16:12), Phoebe (Rom. 16:1-2 NIV), Priscilla (Rom. 16:3-5; 1 Cor. 16:19; 2 Tim. 4:19 cf Acts 18:1-3, 18-19, 26), Rufus’ mother (Rom. 16:13), Syntyche (Phil. 4:2-3), Tryphena (Rom. 16:12), Tryphosa (Rom. 16:12). Lydia is mentioned in Acts 16:13-15, 40.
I believe that if these verses were the starting point and focus in discussions on women in ministry, more so than 1 Corinthians 14:34-35 and 1 Timothy 2:12, the church and the world would be in a much better state. (My articles on 1 Corinthians 14:34-35 here, and on 1 Timothy 2:12 here.)
Paul was not a misogynist. He did not hate or mistrust women. Far from it!
Paul valued Priscilla, Euodia, and Syntyche as his co-workers in gospel ministry.
Paul refers to Junia as a fellow Jew, his fellow prisoner, and as outstanding among the apostles.
He commends Phoebe to the church at Rome as our sister, as minister or deacon of the church at Cenchrea, and as a patron of many. He also entrusted to Phoebe his letter to the Romans.
He acknowledges positively the ministry labours of Mary of Rome, Tryphena, Tryphosa, and Persis. He loved Persis.
He warmly mentions no less than ten women in Romans chapter 16. Paul had met some of these women when his and their journeys had intersected. Other women in Romans 16, such as Julia, hosted house churches in Rome.
He took seriously a report from Chloe of Corinth‘s people.
He passed on greetings from Claudia of Rome and sent greetings to Apphia of Colossae.
He recognised the house church of Nympha in Laodicea and asked that greetings be passed on to her and her church.
He accepted the hospitality of Lydia in Philippi and held meetings of the fledgeling Philippian congregation in her home.
He respected the faith and teaching of Lois and Eunice.
At least eighteen women are mentioned in the Pauline letters; sixteen are identified by name. Paul mentions some of these women along with a male relative, but most are mentioned independently of a man. Moreover, Paul used his favourite ministry terms: coworker, deacon/minister (diakonos), and apostle, for both male and female ministry colleagues.
Paul valued the ministry of women!
Here is a list, in alphabetical order, of the eighteen women in Paul’s letters, plus Lydia.
Apphia (Phlm. 1:2), Chloe (1 Cor. 1:11), Claudia (2 Tim. 4:21), Eunice (2 Tim. 1:5); Euodia (Php. 4:2-3), Julia (Rom. 16:15), Junia (Rom. 16:7 NIV), Lois (2 Tim. 1:5), Mary (Rom. 16:6), Nereus’ sister (Rom. 16:15), Nympha (Col. 4:15), Persis (Rom. 16:12), Phoebe (Rom. 16:1-2 NIV), Priscilla (Rom. 16:3-5; 1 Cor. 16:19; 2 Tim. 4:19 cf Acts 18:1-3, 18-19, 26), Rufus’ mother (Rom. 16:13), Syntyche (Phil. 4:2-3), Tryphena (Rom. 16:12), Tryphosa (Rom. 16:12). Lydia is mentioned in Acts 16:13-15, 40.
I believe that if these verses were the starting point and focus in discussions on women in ministry, more so than 1 Corinthians 14:34-35 and 1 Timothy 2:12, the church and the world would be in a much better state. (My articles on 1 Corinthians 14:34-35 here, and on 1 Timothy 2:12 here.)
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"Husbands, love your wives, as Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her, that he might sanctify her, having cleansed her by the washing of water with the word, so that he might present the church to himself in splendor, without spot or wrinkle or any such thing, that she might be holy and without blemish. In the same way husbands should love their wives as their own bodies. He who loves his wife loves himself."--Ephesians 5:25-28
The man and the woman fit together like two pieces of a puzzle. They are equal in their humanity and in Christ, but the woman is called to submission. However, the man as the leader holds greater responsibility and should do his part first, loving his wife as Christ love the Church. Again it is because Eve sinned first that this is the order of things.
My thinking in regards to ministry--we see great women in the bible and also great women missionaries--I think of Amy Carmichael and Elisabeth Eliot--strong, brave, godly women who worked hard for the Lord. Women can do many things in ministry--they can teach and be deacons. They are not listed under the category of Elders in the Scriptures, so I don't believe a woman should hold the office of Elder/Pastor (Pastors are both elder and pastor). I think there are cases however, where exceptions might need to be made--a church that doesn't have enough men, foreign places where there are few Christians for example.
The man and the woman fit together like two pieces of a puzzle. They are equal in their humanity and in Christ, but the woman is called to submission. However, the man as the leader holds greater responsibility and should do his part first, loving his wife as Christ love the Church. Again it is because Eve sinned first that this is the order of things.
My thinking in regards to ministry--we see great women in the bible and also great women missionaries--I think of Amy Carmichael and Elisabeth Eliot--strong, brave, godly women who worked hard for the Lord. Women can do many things in ministry--they can teach and be deacons. They are not listed under the category of Elders in the Scriptures, so I don't believe a woman should hold the office of Elder/Pastor (Pastors are both elder and pastor). I think there are cases however, where exceptions might need to be made--a church that doesn't have enough men, foreign places where there are few Christians for example.
I don't disagree with you there...they can teach other women...however, they are not allowed to teach or usurp authority over a man.
Therefore, if they are going to teach in a church setting, they must have a covering (1 Corinthians 11) in the form of a man who can publicly correct them in the case that they might be deceived on a matter (1 Timothy 2:11-14).
Therefore, if they are going to teach in a church setting, they must have a covering (1 Corinthians 11) in the form of a man who can publicly correct them in the case that they might be deceived on a matter (1 Timothy 2:11-14).
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You sound very immature jbf--people are going to say things you don't like, just as you said things i don't like--but to call me ignorant is an attack--and not very Christian. All of your verses were about what women can't do or what they must do---any woman with any dignity is going to get their feathers ruffled by your post. Ps if it makes you feel any better, I removed the X and gave it a thumbs down--not for the verses, but for your attitude.
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Paul isn't calling me ignorant--you are.
In any case here is a 19th Century commentary by Adam Clarke-essentially he says Paul is addressing behaviour as required in the Jewish Assembly and addressing in particular behavior that was disruptive as well as disorderly.:
Genesis 3:16: Thy desire shall be to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee.
"From this it is evident that it was the disorderly and disobedient that the apostle had in view and not any of those on whom God had poured out his Spirit."--Clarke
Adam Clarke Commentary
Verse 34. Let your women keep silence in the churches — This was a Jewish ordinance; women were not permitted to teach in the assemblies, or even to ask questions. The rabbins taught that "a woman should know nothing but the use of her distaff." And the sayings of Rabbi Eliezer, as delivered, Bammidbar Rabba, sec. 9, fol. 204, are both worthy of remark and of execration; they are these: ישרפו דברי תורה ואל ימסרו לנשים yisrephu dibrey torah veal yimsaru lenashim, "Let the words of the law be burned, rather than that they should be delivered to women."
This was their condition till the time of the Gospel, when, according to the prediction of Joel, the Spirit of God was to be poured out on the women as well as the men, that they might prophesy, i.e. teach. And that they did prophesy or teach is evident from what the apostle says, 1 Corinthians 11:5 (NAS)
5 But every woman who has her head uncovered while praying or prophesying disgraces her head, for she is one and the same as the woman whose head is shaved.
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" tooltipenable="true" style="box-sizing: border-box; text-decoration: none; color: rgb(200, 83, 53); font-weight: 700; cursor: pointer;">1 Corinthians 11:5, where he lays down rules to regulate this part of their conduct while ministering in the church.
But does not what the apostle says here contradict that statement, and show that the words in chap. 1 Corinthians 11:0 (NAS)
1 Be imitators of me, just as I also am of Christ. 2 Now I praise you because you remember me in everything and hold firmly to the traditions, just as I delivered them to you. 3 But I want you to understand that Christ is the head of every man, and the man is the head of a woman, and God is the head of Christ. 4 Every man who has something on his head while praying or prophesying disgraces his head. 5 But every woman who has her head uncovered while praying or prophesying disgraces her head, for she is one and the same as the woman whose head is shaved.
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" tooltipenable="true" style="box-sizing: border-box; text-decoration: none; color: rgb(200, 83, 53); font-weight: 700; cursor: pointer;">1 Corinthians 11:0 should be understood in another sense? For, here it is expressly said that they should keep silence in the church; for it was not permitted to a woman to speak. Both places seem perfectly consistent. It is evident from the context that the apostle refers here to asking questions, and what we call dictating in the assemblies. It was permitted to any man to ask questions, to object, altercate, attempt to refute, c., in the synagogue but this liberty was not allowed to any woman. St. Paul confirms this in reference also to the Christian Church; he orders them to keep silence; and, if they wished to learn any thing, let them inquire of their husbands at home; because it was perfectly indecorous for women to be contending with men in public assemblies, on points of doctrine, cases of conscience, c. But this by no means intimated that when a woman received any particular influence from God to enable her to teach, that she was not to obey that influence on the contrary, she was to obey it, and the apostle lays down directions in chap. 1 Corinthians 11:0 (NAS)
1 Be imitators of me, just as I also am of Christ. 2 Now I praise you because you remember me in everything and hold firmly to the traditions, just as I delivered them to you. 3 But I want you to understand that Christ is the head of every man, and the man is the head of a woman, and God is the head of Christ. 4 Every man who has something on his head while praying or prophesying disgraces his head. 5 But every woman who has her head uncovered while praying or prophesying disgraces her head, for she is one and the same as the woman whose head is shaved.
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" tooltipenable="true" style="box-sizing: border-box; text-decoration: none; color: rgb(200, 83, 53); font-weight: 700; cursor: pointer;">1 Corinthians 11:0 for regulating her personal appearance when thus employed. All that the apostle opposes here is their questioning, finding fault, disputing, c., in the Christian Church, as the Jewish men were permitted to do in their synagogues together with the attempts to usurp any authority over the man, by setting up their judgment in opposition to them; for the apostle has in view, especially, acts of disobedience, arrogance, c., of which no woman would be guilty who was under the influence of the Spirit of God.
But-to be under obedience, as also saith the law. — This is a reference to Genesis 3:16 (NAS)
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I see you're reflecting out loud--always good to have our conscious's pricked-- we don't want them 'seared as with a hot iron' as the good book says. Yes I agree, it's immature to insult someone and yes I agree when you point one finger there are three pointing back at you--I just tried it out and you are correct! I'll give you a thumbs up on that one.
I see you're reflecting out loud--always good to have our conscious's pricked-- we don't want them 'seared as with a hot iron' as the good book says. Yes I agree, it's immature to insult someone and yes I agree when you point one finger there are three pointing back at you--I just tried it out and you are correct! I'll give you a thumbs up on that one.
I am only agreeing with him.
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I'll try putting a man on my head to cover my head, but I'd prefer a scarf or a cap personally...
oh and that usurping bit....please read the 19th Century Adame Clarke Commentary below. I emphasize the 19th Century since we are now in the 21st century...and yet as I said we seem to be regressing....