You have a good handle on Galatians as we know to see it from 2014, it is good. We are talking about taking on a study to see it from the viewpoint of the year 50 or so when it was written, to plum it for the spiritual truths in it for us. We could discuss away the 2014 view, many have done it. I am suggesting reading a description of the AD 50 view. It talks a lot about who was troubling them, how they were doing it, and what Paul had to say about the troubles they were bringing on those people.
A new look at Galatians
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From post # 52
Your statement can be misunderstood. The Pharisees didn't obey the law. By the time Jesus arrived on the scene they had no idea what the truth was in the law. For hundreds of years they had developed their own understanding, and in the process messed it all up. Jesus called them on it.
Matthew 23:23 (KJV)
[SUP]23 [/SUP]Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have omitted the weightier matters of the law, judgment, mercy, and faith: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone.
We see hear that "faith" is a substantial part of the law, not by works, or in the flesh, but by teh Holy Spirit's motivation.
John 5:42-47 (KJV)
[SUP]42 [/SUP]But I know you, that ye have not the love of God in you.
[SUP]43 [/SUP]I am come in my Father's name, and ye receive me not: if another shall come in his own name, him ye will receive.
[SUP]44 [/SUP]How can ye believe, which receive honour one of another, and seek not the honour that cometh from God only?
[SUP]45 [/SUP]Do not think that I will accuse you to the Father: there is one that accuseth you, even Moses, in whom ye trust.
[SUP]46 [/SUP]For had ye believed Moses, ye would have believed me: for he wrote of me.
[SUP]47[/SUP]But if ye believe not his writings, how shall ye believe my words?
John 7:19 (KJV)
[SUP]19 [/SUP]Did not Moses give you the law, and yet none of you keepeth the law? Why go ye about to kill me?
Your statement can be misunderstood. The Pharisees didn't obey the law. By the time Jesus arrived on the scene they had no idea what the truth was in the law. For hundreds of years they had developed their own understanding, and in the process messed it all up. Jesus called them on it.
Matthew 23:23 (KJV)
[SUP]23 [/SUP]Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have omitted the weightier matters of the law, judgment, mercy, and faith: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone.
We see hear that "faith" is a substantial part of the law, not by works, or in the flesh, but by teh Holy Spirit's motivation.
John 5:42-47 (KJV)
[SUP]42 [/SUP]But I know you, that ye have not the love of God in you.
[SUP]43 [/SUP]I am come in my Father's name, and ye receive me not: if another shall come in his own name, him ye will receive.
[SUP]44 [/SUP]How can ye believe, which receive honour one of another, and seek not the honour that cometh from God only?
[SUP]45 [/SUP]Do not think that I will accuse you to the Father: there is one that accuseth you, even Moses, in whom ye trust.
[SUP]46 [/SUP]For had ye believed Moses, ye would have believed me: for he wrote of me.
[SUP]47[/SUP]But if ye believe not his writings, how shall ye believe my words?
John 7:19 (KJV)
[SUP]19 [/SUP]Did not Moses give you the law, and yet none of you keepeth the law? Why go ye about to kill me?
I did NOT say I wanted to discuss Galatians. I wanted to get someone to see what this man had to say about Galatians based on the history of the time Paul wrote to them. I never said I wanted to discuss again your decisions about law, I have heard them. I do not want to attack you or you attack me. I know what you think Galatians says, there is no use of discussing it further, what you think about it is set in stone.
I am almost 89 years old and I have been studying this since I was 18, although I decided long ago not to guess about the allegories of prophecy. So what?
I do not want to discuss what people say Galatians says, I have never said so. I want to discuss what this man thinks about Galatians based on the history he has dug up. I don't think that people who know everything about everything are good candidates for that kind of a discussion. Scripture reading takes a humble mind, and with your fondness of the word focus, then focus on God.
I am almost 89 years old and I have been studying this since I was 18, although I decided long ago not to guess about the allegories of prophecy. So what?
I do not want to discuss what people say Galatians says, I have never said so. I want to discuss what this man thinks about Galatians based on the history he has dug up. I don't think that people who know everything about everything are good candidates for that kind of a discussion. Scripture reading takes a humble mind, and with your fondness of the word focus, then focus on God.
I have no time for this nonsense. I will let others try and get a single word pertaining to the study of Galatians out of you. When you find something "new" it likely is the same old lie, packaged in a different format. You have searched the internet to find a Bible study that upholds your opinions.
My thought is next time, study the Bible to study the Bible. Read Galatians in one sitting, then chapter by chapter, verse by verse, then with a commentary or study Bible. Absorb it, live it. God will speak to you. Memorize it. Write it on your heart!
You are completely unable to hear anything anyone in this forum has to say to you. I post a scripture, and you reply with an attack. I post another verses, and you call me anti-nominan.
You are wrong, and will continue to be wrong. I can only pray that you do not move so far from God that God does not cast you into hell for finding ways to put God in the Talmud box, because, you may remember the Pharisees are the ones who crucified Jesus and the ones who wrote the Talmud.
Kind of like a Jew deciding to use "Mein Kampf" as a foundational book to study the truth of the Jewish religion.
Jesus is the Messiah, by the way. The Anointed One. Christ is merely a Greek translation of the Hebrew. I am not afraid of words, I love Hebrew and the Old Testament. But I know its place in salvic history or soteriology. The question is, do you?
"For freedom Christ has set us free; stand firm therefore, and do not submit again to a yoke of slavery." Gal 5:1
"You were running well. Who hindered you from obeying the truth? [SUP]8 [/SUP]This persuasion is not from him who calls you. [SUP]9 [/SUP]A little leaven leavens the whole lump. [SUP]10 [/SUP]I have confidence in the Lord that you will take no other view, and the one who is troubling you will bear the penalty, whoever he is. [SUP]11 [/SUP]But if I, brothers, still preach circumcision, why am I still being persecuted? In that case the offense of the cross has been removed. [SUP]12 [/SUP]I wish those who unsettle you would emasculate themselves!" Gal. 5:7-12
"For you were called to freedom, brothers. Only do not use your freedom as an opportunity for the flesh, but through love serve one another. [SUP]14 [/SUP]For the whole law is fulfilled in one word: “You shall love your neighbor as yourself.” [SUP]15 [/SUP]But if you bite and devour one another, watch out that you are not consumed by one another." Gal. 5:13-15
I'm done with biting and devouring. I thought we were supposed to be studying Galatians, instead, as usual I just see biting and devouring. Too bad, it could have been an interesting study.
I don't think it is "adding" history. I think the history is a basic part of being a listening Christian. We need to know Christ was a Jew as we read the gospels. We need to know Hebrews was written to people thinking of just going back to what they knew before Christ lived and died on the earth. We need to know about John as he was given the book of Revelations. If we don't know the problems a book is addressing and the circumstances of the people with those problems, we have a hard time figuring out what the book is answering. History isn't "adding", it is a part of the book.
This thread was not started for edification, but was designed for division citing 'proof' for the Law-keeping position and implying that anyone not willing to take on the study presented is a 'casual Christian':
From the OP:
Said person posts time after time false teaching, rarely using Scripture and then bearing false witness and putting words into the 'mouths' of other posters that they NEVER wrote and did not imply. So enough with the victim card
.
The Law-keeping position is a false gospel which takes away from the completed Work of Christ and immobilizes and isolates that part of the Body because She turns her focus on self instead of loving others. Spin it any way you want to; that's how it eventually plays out.
Satan used the only Law in effect in the Garden to tempt Eve. Now he has a whole bunch of laws to choose from. Which is why, in Christ, God arranged for this:
13 And you, who were dead in your trespasses and the uncircumcision of your flesh, God made alive together with him, having forgiven us all our trespasses, 14 by canceling the record of debt that stood against us with its legal demands. This he set aside, nailing it to the cross. 15 He disarmed the rulers and authorities and put them to open shame, by triumphing over them in him. (from Col. 2)
If you are in Christ, you have died to the Law; you have been severed from it. What weapon did God take away from the rulers and authorities? The Law. If you put yourself back under Law, you put that weapon right back in the hands of Satan in your life.
The following series offered on a take it or leave it basis. I won't try to manipulate anyone into listening or not by telling them that if they don't, they're not a 'casual' Christian. Free audios:
Spiritual Warfare – From Aaron Budjen: “When it comes to the subject of Spiritual Warfare, people are normally thinking of it as an opportunity to cast demons out of people and assert their authority over the Devil. People are looking for opportunities to pray in different ways or heal people of their diseases and injuries. These are real circumstances in life and I do recognize that many people encounter and engage our enemy in these ways. However, I sincerely believe that the predominant battle we are engaged in is the battle between the truth and the lie, and the battleground is your mind. Instead of presenting this subject from the traditional point of view, I addressed this subject in the context of law and grace. The series turned out to be 8 programs, recorded on 4 CDs of very hard hitting and strong teaching, exposing the most predominant satanic lie that holds people in bondage. The lie of, ‘if you will only know what is good and evil, you can be like God.’” Highly Recommended.
-JGIG
From the OP:
- Any time there is a discussion of law, the book of Galatians is quoted as proof against law.
- Yet, scripture gives verse after verse upholding law.
- I found a study that explains Galatians through a thorough study of all scripture that applies, and a study of the times surrounding the letter that is almost like going back into the life of the Galatians. It isn’t an easy study, it is an outline that can take weeks to do. It isn’t for the casual Christian.
Said person posts time after time false teaching, rarely using Scripture and then bearing false witness and putting words into the 'mouths' of other posters that they NEVER wrote and did not imply. So enough with the victim card
.The Law-keeping position is a false gospel which takes away from the completed Work of Christ and immobilizes and isolates that part of the Body because She turns her focus on self instead of loving others. Spin it any way you want to; that's how it eventually plays out.
Satan used the only Law in effect in the Garden to tempt Eve. Now he has a whole bunch of laws to choose from. Which is why, in Christ, God arranged for this:
13 And you, who were dead in your trespasses and the uncircumcision of your flesh, God made alive together with him, having forgiven us all our trespasses, 14 by canceling the record of debt that stood against us with its legal demands. This he set aside, nailing it to the cross. 15 He disarmed the rulers and authorities and put them to open shame, by triumphing over them in him. (from Col. 2)
If you are in Christ, you have died to the Law; you have been severed from it. What weapon did God take away from the rulers and authorities? The Law. If you put yourself back under Law, you put that weapon right back in the hands of Satan in your life.
The following series offered on a take it or leave it basis. I won't try to manipulate anyone into listening or not by telling them that if they don't, they're not a 'casual' Christian. Free audios:
Spiritual Warfare – From Aaron Budjen: “When it comes to the subject of Spiritual Warfare, people are normally thinking of it as an opportunity to cast demons out of people and assert their authority over the Devil. People are looking for opportunities to pray in different ways or heal people of their diseases and injuries. These are real circumstances in life and I do recognize that many people encounter and engage our enemy in these ways. However, I sincerely believe that the predominant battle we are engaged in is the battle between the truth and the lie, and the battleground is your mind. Instead of presenting this subject from the traditional point of view, I addressed this subject in the context of law and grace. The series turned out to be 8 programs, recorded on 4 CDs of very hard hitting and strong teaching, exposing the most predominant satanic lie that holds people in bondage. The lie of, ‘if you will only know what is good and evil, you can be like God.’” Highly Recommended.
- Spiritual Warfare 1
- Spiritual Warfare 2
- Spiritual Warfare 3
- Spiritual Warfare 4
- Spiritual Warfare 5
- Spiritual Warfare 6
- Spiritual Warfare 7
- Spiritual Warfare 8
-JGIG
That was another poster, and they didn't say that the study teaches the Talmud, but that the author and the site rely on the Talmud as a source of truth and wisdom. That's not a good thing. Talk about man-made tradition!
And then instead of pointing to Christ and building believers up in who they are in Him, the author of the study twists the clear message of Galatians to point believers to Torah observance. If that was the goal, if righteousness was to be obtained through the Law, then Christ had no need to do the Work of the Cross:
I've encouraged you in an number of posts to use contextual Scripture. The 119th Psalm is a beautiful passage, and in the New Covenant loses none of it's meaning. The laws given at Sinai are no longer the object of the psalm, however, but the Law of Love, the Fruit of the Spirit, which fulfills the Law (Gal. 5, Rom. 13:8-10).
Pardon me? The post of mine that you quoted above I clearly stated, "To the contrary! We are saying STUDY IT! Read the letter to the Galatians plainly for what it clearly says . . . "
You are again telling fibs, RedTent, trying to paint your 'opponents' as trying to shut down the study of the Scriptures, when that is not at all the case.
RedTent, anything that contradicts a plain reading of Paul's letter to the Galatians is error. The study you posted takes 126 pages to try to rewrite Paul's letter. Rejecting the study you posted does not make me close-minded, it makes me discerning. Those in Christ are called to test everything. Even the study you posted.
Another false accusation.
And there goes the Hitler card . . . .
Sheesh.
-JGIG
And then instead of pointing to Christ and building believers up in who they are in Him, the author of the study twists the clear message of Galatians to point believers to Torah observance. If that was the goal, if righteousness was to be obtained through the Law, then Christ had no need to do the Work of the Cross:
19 For through the law I died to the law, so that I might live to God. 20 I have been crucified with Christ. It is no longer I who live, but Christ who lives in me. And the life I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave himself for me. 21 I do not nullify the grace of God, for if righteousness were through the law, then Christ died for no purpose. (from Gal. 2)
I've encouraged you in an number of posts to use contextual Scripture. The 119th Psalm is a beautiful passage, and in the New Covenant loses none of it's meaning. The laws given at Sinai are no longer the object of the psalm, however, but the Law of Love, the Fruit of the Spirit, which fulfills the Law (Gal. 5, Rom. 13:8-10).
Pardon me? The post of mine that you quoted above I clearly stated, "To the contrary! We are saying STUDY IT! Read the letter to the Galatians plainly for what it clearly says . . . "
You are again telling fibs, RedTent, trying to paint your 'opponents' as trying to shut down the study of the Scriptures, when that is not at all the case.
RedTent, anything that contradicts a plain reading of Paul's letter to the Galatians is error. The study you posted takes 126 pages to try to rewrite Paul's letter. Rejecting the study you posted does not make me close-minded, it makes me discerning. Those in Christ are called to test everything. Even the study you posted.
Another false accusation.
And there goes the Hitler card . . . .
Sheesh.
-JGIG
I never once said to use the Mishna or whatever it is, the Talmud, or anything but facts to explain God. I said that judgmental thinking so everything about a subject is condemned is not good thinking. Where did you ever come up with that these were to be used to explain? What a mind.
A rose has a thorn. Does that statement explain a rose? Reading "Mishna" does not stop the possibility of learning about what the Jews of a certain period were thinking, should we say it is sinful to read that for that purpose because it doesn't do a thing to explain God?
A rose has a thorn. Does that statement explain a rose? Reading "Mishna" does not stop the possibility of learning about what the Jews of a certain period were thinking, should we say it is sinful to read that for that purpose because it doesn't do a thing to explain God?
Well that will shorten up a quick read of the Bible! Genesis and Matthew! Except that Christ Himself said this:
Apparently Christ knew there was more Truth to come explaining the significance of what He was about to do.
Paul was the recipient of much of that Truth, and was charged with communicating it to the Body.
Not one, NOT ONE person has said not to study Galatians.
-JGIG
12 “I still have many things to say to you, but you cannot bear them now.
13 When the Spirit of truth comes, he will guide you into all the truth, for he will not speak on his own authority, but whatever he hears he will speak, and he will declare to you the things that are to come. 14 He will glorify me, for he will take what is mine and declare it to you." (from John 16)
13 When the Spirit of truth comes, he will guide you into all the truth, for he will not speak on his own authority, but whatever he hears he will speak, and he will declare to you the things that are to come. 14 He will glorify me, for he will take what is mine and declare it to you." (from John 16)
Apparently Christ knew there was more Truth to come explaining the significance of what He was about to do.
Paul was the recipient of much of that Truth, and was charged with communicating it to the Body.
Not one, NOT ONE person has said not to study Galatians.
-JGIG
I truly think that demons are dictating some of these things that are said. They are not of God in a Christian site! The author relies on scripture and history to teach about Galatians. That is the way it is, regardless of what you say. The author is not trying to twist Galatians, but I see you are doing anything you can to see that no one knows what God says to us in Galatians.
There is a fight between the forces of evil and good, but good will win, you are on the losing side.
On a Christian site with Christians on it, all would know what the place the Talmud has in our learning about God. There wouldn't be the questions about it you keep bringing up. It would even be possible to say that it could be used for its historic value without anyone batting an eye. It wouldn't be something like little kids use accusing and teasing each other with.
God does not tell us never to listen to Torah, Torah points to Christ. Christ is the plan for our salvation, it always was. Nothing you can say can change that, it is simply so. Again, you are on the losing side.
You say you want to shut down this study of Galatians, that is the gist of all YOUR posts. I agree that what we are after is the plain reading of Galatians, the plain and simple reading of God's message. That is what I am working for and what you are fighting.
Be careful, when you say we are to test everything that comes from man against what comes from God, that is one of the purposes of a Christian, and leads to Christ. That is working FOR Christ! Is that what you want to do?
There is a fight between the forces of evil and good, but good will win, you are on the losing side.
On a Christian site with Christians on it, all would know what the place the Talmud has in our learning about God. There wouldn't be the questions about it you keep bringing up. It would even be possible to say that it could be used for its historic value without anyone batting an eye. It wouldn't be something like little kids use accusing and teasing each other with.
God does not tell us never to listen to Torah, Torah points to Christ. Christ is the plan for our salvation, it always was. Nothing you can say can change that, it is simply so. Again, you are on the losing side.
You say you want to shut down this study of Galatians, that is the gist of all YOUR posts. I agree that what we are after is the plain reading of Galatians, the plain and simple reading of God's message. That is what I am working for and what you are fighting.
Be careful, when you say we are to test everything that comes from man against what comes from God, that is one of the purposes of a Christian, and leads to Christ. That is working FOR Christ! Is that what you want to do?
So God has hidden His Truth from His people?
Really?
And your source (who relies on Talmud which is based on oral traditions and Jewish mysticism) is the authoritative source that God has chosen to reveal stuff that you say He hid from His people?
Again, really???
God's Word says that every promise of God is yes and amen in Christ (1 Cor. 1:20) and you're still looking for 'secret knowledge'?
You have been sooo primed for false teachers to take you for a ride.
-JGIG
Really?
And your source (who relies on Talmud which is based on oral traditions and Jewish mysticism) is the authoritative source that God has chosen to reveal stuff that you say He hid from His people?
Again, really???
God's Word says that every promise of God is yes and amen in Christ (1 Cor. 1:20) and you're still looking for 'secret knowledge'?
You have been sooo primed for false teachers to take you for a ride.
-JGIG
Angela, if Christ were here between us, Christ could set you straight. You believe in Christ you will be saved, even though you turn against so much of God.
We are talking about using this study of Galatians and critiquing it, and whether anyone would do it. I do not want to study Galatians with you, you have a warped idea of Galatians and that cannot be changed. If we discuss together, it would be about this study, and about what "Law of Moses" means, and you have made clear that you do not want to discuss it, your mind is made it and what God thinks about it makes no difference to you. Case closed.
I am not biting and devouring you. You have said I am heading for hell. That I never study. That my use of the OT is wrong. Your words include horrid things describing me and the man who wrote the study. We are told not to even use "you fool", and your words are scathing. This man is accused of using the Talmud for scripture, for instance. In a court of law your witness against an accused would be thrown out based on the things you say.
I must stand up for my God, I must stand up for Christ. I believe in Christ as my savior, the man who wrote the study believes in Christ as his Savior. You are attacking.
We are talking about using this study of Galatians and critiquing it, and whether anyone would do it. I do not want to study Galatians with you, you have a warped idea of Galatians and that cannot be changed. If we discuss together, it would be about this study, and about what "Law of Moses" means, and you have made clear that you do not want to discuss it, your mind is made it and what God thinks about it makes no difference to you. Case closed.
I am not biting and devouring you. You have said I am heading for hell. That I never study. That my use of the OT is wrong. Your words include horrid things describing me and the man who wrote the study. We are told not to even use "you fool", and your words are scathing. This man is accused of using the Talmud for scripture, for instance. In a court of law your witness against an accused would be thrown out based on the things you say.
I must stand up for my God, I must stand up for Christ. I believe in Christ as my savior, the man who wrote the study believes in Christ as his Savior. You are attacking.
Yes.
What's really, really amazing is that RedTent states that it's the traditions of men that Paul was preaching against in the letter tot he Galatians, and then goes to the VERY SAME traditions of men to try to prove that Paul was trying to convince the Galatians not to abide by those same traditions of men.
It is the very definition of double-mindedness!
-JGIG
What's really, really amazing is that RedTent states that it's the traditions of men that Paul was preaching against in the letter tot he Galatians, and then goes to the VERY SAME traditions of men to try to prove that Paul was trying to convince the Galatians not to abide by those same traditions of men.
It is the very definition of double-mindedness!
-JGIG