We are not talking about whether we are saved by law or not. But there is no scripture that says we are, and I have never read a Christian poster who says we are. God says the law, that shows us sin, kills us, that it is Christ that saves us. We all know that, what does that have to do with doing the study of Galatians I suggested?
A new look at Galatians
- Thread starter RedTent
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If you're going to rely on Jewish scholars who rely on the Talmud for your information, you should probably know what the Talmud, Mishna, and Zohar actually are. When the Law-keeping position was presented to me and I saw these sources being used, I made it my business to learn what they were. You should, as well. Here's what I found as I studied out the issue:
The doublemindedness of those in the Hebrew Roots Movement who rely upon Jewish Sages and Scholars to uncover “hidden revelation” or to “peel back the layers of prophecy and bring deeper understanding to the Scriptures” is stunning.
Looking to Jewish Sages and Scholars by default makes use of Kabbalah and Gematria, as Kabbalah and Gematria are where the Sages and Scholars acquire portions of their “wisdom” and “insight”. This reliance in the HRM is almost universal, from the mainstream to the outer fringes of the movement. That a number of unsuspecting believers is being lured into a belief system with ties to the Occult is deeply troubling.
Some will balk at this assertion. If, however, one takes a hard look at the Talmud and Jewish Sages and Scholars, and looks at all ofthe contributing elements affecting them throughout history, one cannot escape at the very least the influence of Kabbalah on Talmudic scholarship and teachings. I hesitate to offer too much documentation for the charge, as I don’t want to open wide a portal here at JGIG into anything having to do with the occult.
-JGIG
The doublemindedness of those in the Hebrew Roots Movement who rely upon Jewish Sages and Scholars to uncover “hidden revelation” or to “peel back the layers of prophecy and bring deeper understanding to the Scriptures” is stunning.
Looking to Jewish Sages and Scholars by default makes use of Kabbalah and Gematria, as Kabbalah and Gematria are where the Sages and Scholars acquire portions of their “wisdom” and “insight”. This reliance in the HRM is almost universal, from the mainstream to the outer fringes of the movement. That a number of unsuspecting believers is being lured into a belief system with ties to the Occult is deeply troubling.
Some will balk at this assertion. If, however, one takes a hard look at the Talmud and Jewish Sages and Scholars, and looks at all ofthe contributing elements affecting them throughout history, one cannot escape at the very least the influence of Kabbalah on Talmudic scholarship and teachings. I hesitate to offer too much documentation for the charge, as I don’t want to open wide a portal here at JGIG into anything having to do with the occult.
-JGIG
You may rely on the Talmud if that is your choice, it is not for me. I read some of the Talmud to see what it was like, I have no patience for it. YOU read it if you want. I have read about some of the history reported by people with more patience for it than I have. That is enough for me.
Why are you relying on people who rely on the Talmud? Don't you know what Christ said about it?
Why are you relying on people who rely on the Talmud? Don't you know what Christ said about it?
Sorry Red,
But he plain out says he is Chassid
[COLOR=rgba(0, 0, 0, 0)]What Is a Chassid?
[/COLOR]
3) A chassid is a mystic. A chassid doesn’t just study Kabbalah—she also understands it. Chassidic teaching takes the deepest secrets of Torah—concepts and narratives that, through the ages, were revealed to only a select few sages in every generation—and makes them accessible and comprehensible to every individual, and applicable in every individual’s life.
What Is a Chassid? - Chassidic Thought
It is anamatha to the gospel of Christ.
[COLOR=rgba(0, 0, 0, 0)]?[/COLOR]
But he plain out says he is Chassid
[COLOR=rgba(0, 0, 0, 0)]What Is a Chassid?
[/COLOR]
3) A chassid is a mystic. A chassid doesn’t just study Kabbalah—she also understands it. Chassidic teaching takes the deepest secrets of Torah—concepts and narratives that, through the ages, were revealed to only a select few sages in every generation—and makes them accessible and comprehensible to every individual, and applicable in every individual’s life.
What Is a Chassid? - Chassidic Thought
It is anamatha to the gospel of Christ.
[COLOR=rgba(0, 0, 0, 0)]?[/COLOR]
Not true. I've said READ GALATIANS. It is not a difficult book UNLESS you're trying to force a Law-keeping belief system into it. That's why Law-keepers need to make 126 page studies to muddy the waters so much so that they can force the meaning they want into the letter.
I'm content to rest in Christ and let the last part of that accusation be proven false.
Law keepers do not use Talmud just for 'historical value'; they are crafting doctrine using it. Big no no.
Have you even read my posts? You continue to repeat the lie that we (or I) are wanting to shut down the study of Galatians. Study it. Read it. Just test the sources you are using to aid in your study.
If that is true, why does a plain reading of the letter to the Galatians need to be accompanied by a 126-page study that confuses instead of clarifies the message of the letter?
So are you saying that we shouldn't test everything that comes from man?
Really?
-JGIG
If you're going to rely on Jewish scholars who rely on the Talmud for your information, you should probably know what the Talmud, Mishna, and Zohar actually are. When the Law-keeping position was presented to me and I saw these sources being used, I made it my business to learn what they were. You should, as well. Here's what I found as I studied out the issue:
An excerpt:
The doublemindedness of those in the Hebrew Roots Movement who rely upon Jewish Sages and Scholars to uncover “hidden revelation” or to “peel back the layers of prophecy and bring deeper understanding to the Scriptures” is stunning.
Looking to Jewish Sages and Scholars by default makes use of Kabbalah and Gematria, as Kabbalah and Gematria are where the Sages and Scholars acquire portions of their “wisdom” and “insight”. This reliance in the HRM is almost universal, from the mainstream to the outer fringes of the movement. That a number of unsuspecting believers is being lured into a belief system with ties to the Occult is deeply troubling.
Some will balk at this assertion. If, however, one takes a hard look at the Talmud and Jewish Sages and Scholars, and looks at all ofthe contributing elements affecting them throughout history, one cannot escape at the very least the influence of Kabbalah on Talmudic scholarship and teachings. I hesitate to offer too much documentation for the charge, as I don’t want to open wide a portal here at JGIG into anything having to do with the occult.
-JGIG
An excerpt:
The doublemindedness of those in the Hebrew Roots Movement who rely upon Jewish Sages and Scholars to uncover “hidden revelation” or to “peel back the layers of prophecy and bring deeper understanding to the Scriptures” is stunning.
Looking to Jewish Sages and Scholars by default makes use of Kabbalah and Gematria, as Kabbalah and Gematria are where the Sages and Scholars acquire portions of their “wisdom” and “insight”. This reliance in the HRM is almost universal, from the mainstream to the outer fringes of the movement. That a number of unsuspecting believers is being lured into a belief system with ties to the Occult is deeply troubling.
Some will balk at this assertion. If, however, one takes a hard look at the Talmud and Jewish Sages and Scholars, and looks at all ofthe contributing elements affecting them throughout history, one cannot escape at the very least the influence of Kabbalah on Talmudic scholarship and teachings. I hesitate to offer too much documentation for the charge, as I don’t want to open wide a portal here at JGIG into anything having to do with the occult.
-JGIG
The source you posted in the OP is part of a site that relies HEAVILY on Talmud and Jewish Mysticism.
Please read the article linked to above. You are drinking from a poisoned well and don't even know it.
-JGIG
I carefully went through this study. I checked it with scripture, not whatever this Kabbalah is. I am into scripture, not this other stuff. I think that God created and knows all about us and our world, it is only through scripture and God we get the truth. So I watched this study carefully if it agreed with scripture. It did.
What started me on it was that all scripture does not agree that all the law of Moses is to be ignored, yet Galatians seems to say so. I was so frustrated I cried, for it seems to me that understanding what scripture says is important to our very life. And one scripture NEVER says that another is wrong. I spent months digging in scripture and history, I would not give up until I understood.
I learned that a Rabbi named Hillel, for one, was instrumental in handling the problem of the 'God Fearers" as they called one group of gentiles who wanted to join the Jews in the synagogue. They were a problem because many weren't sincere, and when they made friends with the Jews, when they left or had the Jews join them in some of their pagan worship they didn't give up, but combined with the new worship, they were a bad influence. The rabbis decided to do something about it.
What they decided to do was to make it tough for the gentiles to join them, only the sincere would go through what the rabbis suggested. They made a list of requirements. History records that they did this and there were several names for this list, but history doesn't give us one copy of the entire list. It is called the 18 requirements, the Law of Moses, and sometimes simply circumcision. When they finished all 18 requirements, they could join synagogue. During Paul's day, everyone knew all about this, it was the talk of the town very like we spoke of "the cold war" and everyone knew exactly what that was. Everyone knew exactly what Paul was speaking of when he said "Law of Moses". It was these requirements for joining in the synagogue.
We don't know what Paul meant when he said Law of Moses. We say that we must ignore Christ when He talks of obedience because of Paul speaking of the law of Moses. We accept that Paul spoke against what God said in scripture. When we say Judaizing, it includes not listening to many things God told us to listen to.
If we accept history, everything falls into place. We can listen to Paul as speaking for God. We can listen to all God says. We can listen to Christ as agreeing with Paul and Paul agreeing with Christ.
What started me on it was that all scripture does not agree that all the law of Moses is to be ignored, yet Galatians seems to say so. I was so frustrated I cried, for it seems to me that understanding what scripture says is important to our very life. And one scripture NEVER says that another is wrong. I spent months digging in scripture and history, I would not give up until I understood.
I learned that a Rabbi named Hillel, for one, was instrumental in handling the problem of the 'God Fearers" as they called one group of gentiles who wanted to join the Jews in the synagogue. They were a problem because many weren't sincere, and when they made friends with the Jews, when they left or had the Jews join them in some of their pagan worship they didn't give up, but combined with the new worship, they were a bad influence. The rabbis decided to do something about it.
What they decided to do was to make it tough for the gentiles to join them, only the sincere would go through what the rabbis suggested. They made a list of requirements. History records that they did this and there were several names for this list, but history doesn't give us one copy of the entire list. It is called the 18 requirements, the Law of Moses, and sometimes simply circumcision. When they finished all 18 requirements, they could join synagogue. During Paul's day, everyone knew all about this, it was the talk of the town very like we spoke of "the cold war" and everyone knew exactly what that was. Everyone knew exactly what Paul was speaking of when he said "Law of Moses". It was these requirements for joining in the synagogue.
We don't know what Paul meant when he said Law of Moses. We say that we must ignore Christ when He talks of obedience because of Paul speaking of the law of Moses. We accept that Paul spoke against what God said in scripture. When we say Judaizing, it includes not listening to many things God told us to listen to.
If we accept history, everything falls into place. We can listen to Paul as speaking for God. We can listen to all God says. We can listen to Christ as agreeing with Paul and Paul agreeing with Christ.
E
great, lets study galations.
Yippee!!
Forgive me. This sure appears like you wanted to study galations. How else was I to take this?
So you wanted us to listen to another Judiazer. SOmeone who believes as you do. And do not want to actualy discuss it
I guess I was right earlier when I said.
Actually I wanted to study galations. Not the law
Same can be said for you So why open another thread when you do not want to discuss anything?
Allegories? I do not luke to force allegloriesinto prophesy, The roman catholic church did enough destroying prophesy and the church by doing this.
So you do not want to discuss what they GUY (who would be a people) says about galations. ok. SO you want to discuss what it actually says?
Ok. You do not want to discuss what people think, But you do want to discuss what people think. Are you confused or something?? Which is it?
I never said it did not. I have been studying galations for years.. Have even changed my thinking when I cam out from the LAWyer church. Because I did what you just said we should do.
great, lets study galations.
Yippee!!
Forgive me. This sure appears like you wanted to study galations. How else was I to take this?
So you wanted us to listen to another Judiazer. SOmeone who believes as you do. And do not want to actualy discuss it
I guess I was right earlier when I said.
Actually I wanted to study galations. Not the law
Same can be said for you So why open another thread when you do not want to discuss anything?
Allegories? I do not luke to force allegloriesinto prophesy, The roman catholic church did enough destroying prophesy and the church by doing this.
So you do not want to discuss what they GUY (who would be a people) says about galations. ok. SO you want to discuss what it actually says?
Ok. You do not want to discuss what people think, But you do want to discuss what people think. Are you confused or something?? Which is it?
I never said it did not. I have been studying galations for years.. Have even changed my thinking when I cam out from the LAWyer church. Because I did what you just said we should do.
E
You know so much don't you.
Again it is obvious you have no desire to study galation. So why even bother?
And you do not know what I think of galations. I made a few notes. You never even responded to them just attacked me, And you will not even admit it. Which makes me wonder why your so afraid?
I will be honest with you I feel sorry for you. You claim all these things about everyone, But everything you say about them applies to you.
Has there ever been a time you would speak to me man to man? Have you ever, at any time done anything but put me down? Have you ever heard anything I said? Have we ever been fellow believers in Christ in your mind, have I ever been treated in any way as a sister in Christ? Are you willing to hear anything I say about what I found out about Galatians? Have you ever done anything but say that you believe we should never, ever listen to anything that God says about law and scold me for listening to scripture? If I learned something from a man who says you may label him "messianic" could you do anything about anything I learned from him but sneer? Could we, in any way, be considered fellow Christians in the same family, both belonging to Christ? Could I ever expect respect from you of any kind? I don't think so.
K
Redtent, I applaud your effort to open eyes and ears. Perhaps there are some reading and absorbing some of what you say and are listening to the garbled message of your attackers as well, for contrast.
I understand quite a bit of confusion comes from church leaders teaching Replacement Theology, whereby all the curses and law is for the Jews and all the unconditional blessings and favor for Christians.
Some thinking, I believe, is that if one does not know what was right, he won't be held accountable by God, because his excuse was he didn't know. That would explain the parroting of those views who vehemently oppose your words. Insults and rudeness are tools of intimidation to shut you up, because they like their sweet lovey dovey message from mainstream churchianity on broad way.
May God bless you for your efforts.
I understand quite a bit of confusion comes from church leaders teaching Replacement Theology, whereby all the curses and law is for the Jews and all the unconditional blessings and favor for Christians.
Some thinking, I believe, is that if one does not know what was right, he won't be held accountable by God, because his excuse was he didn't know. That would explain the parroting of those views who vehemently oppose your words. Insults and rudeness are tools of intimidation to shut you up, because they like their sweet lovey dovey message from mainstream churchianity on broad way.
May God bless you for your efforts.
RedTent,
Hebrews 8:7-13 For if that first covenant had been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the second.For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah:
Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they continued not in my covenant, and I regarded them not, saith the Lord.
For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:
And they shall not teach every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest.
For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more.
In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away.
*******
Because one covenant waxes away as God makes a New Covenant doesn't mean God is against God.
Hebrews 8:7-13 For if that first covenant had been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the second.For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah:
Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they continued not in my covenant, and I regarded them not, saith the Lord.
For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:
And they shall not teach every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest.
For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more.
In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away.
*******
Because one covenant waxes away as God makes a New Covenant doesn't mean God is against God.
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K
I wonder if Christians have paused to ponder, "where am I in the Bible?" If we would do that, could do that, it would necessarily be important to relate your life to what was going on, how God was working, what was God trying to accomplish? What would you have done in any given scenario, and would you have seen plainly the plans of God? Is it not hindsight where we have the clearest view? Nothing has changed, in that we should be looking for where God is working and what He has placed on your heart to do in service to Him.
Now we have a bigger picture than what average people of Jesus' day would have had. The question is, what are we going to do with that information? What will God require of us? For it is God who has placed us in this time in history.
Now we have a bigger picture than what average people of Jesus' day would have had. The question is, what are we going to do with that information? What will God require of us? For it is God who has placed us in this time in history.