A NON-CHARISMATIC UNDERSTANDING OF TONGUES

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Noose

Senior Member
Apr 18, 2016
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That isn't what Scripture says. You're attempting to make it say something it simply does not say.
That is exactly what the scripture says. Edification doesn't come from nothing, it comes from understanding.

No, Paul said that the one who speaks in tongues "edifies himself". Paul does not say that it is "a wrong thing".
1. Many times Paul said it is wrong and the whole of 1 Cor 14 has the details.

1 Cor 12:7 Now to each one the manifestation of the Spirit is given for the common good.

This statement also means there's no gift for self edification.

1 Cor 13:
1If I speak in the tongues of men and of angels, but have not love, I am only a ringing gong or a clanging cymbal. 2If I have the gift of prophecy and can fathom all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have absolute faith so as to move mountains, but have not love, I am nothing. 3If I give all I possess to the poor and exult in the surrender of my body,a but have not love, I gain nothing.

4Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. 5It is not rude, it is not self-seeking,...

This further clarifies that self edification is a no go.

1 Cor 14:1Earnestly pursue love and eagerly desire spiritual gifts, especially the gift of prophecy.

You are to understand the gift of tongues on this basis, that it should be for the common good and should be pursued together with love. Love is never about self but others.
There's no way self edification is not self seeking even if you apply all logic.
 

Noose

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Apr 18, 2016
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While not necessarily wrong, "appeals to common sense" is definitely not a biblical test for genuineness.
Doesn't matter, tongues today can not be interpreted because they mean nothing and even if there's a self proclaimed interpreter, there must be witnesses to confirm their translation- but there can't be because the tongues spoken today are not even a language.

I haven't made that assertion, so your point is irrelevant
So why do you think and claim that the modern phenomenon of tongues is genuine? is it because of what is written in Acts and 1 Corinthians 14 and Mark 16?

Yes, you do. I have no idea what you're trying to say here.
According to you, the interpretation of 1 Cor 13 is that the gifts will cease during the millennium when Jesus rules and only these three remain: faith, hope, and love.

Heb 11:1Now faith is the assurance of what we hope for and the certainty of what we do not see.

Rom 8:23Not only that, but we ourselves, who have the firstfruits of the Spirit, groan inwardly as we wait eagerly for our adoption as sons, the redemption of our bodies. 24For in this hope we were saved; but hope that is seen is no hope at all. Who hopes for what he can already see?

Hebrews 3:6 But Christ is faithful as the Son over God's house. And we are His house, if we hold firmly to our confidence and the hope of which we boast.

If Christ will be ruling and people under His rule still hope and faith of salvation, then even during the millenium there will be no victory and Christ will be in glory. What a fake belief.
 

Noose

Senior Member
Apr 18, 2016
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My comment was a constructive suggestion; yours is just an insult. If you want to trade insults, you're on the wrong forum.
Sorry i can't help your soft underbelly. Everything that is said is an insult to you but everything you say is constructive and must be accepted. looks like pride.
 

Noose

Senior Member
Apr 18, 2016
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Doesn't matter, tongues today can not be interpreted because they mean nothing and even if there's a self proclaimed interpreter, there must be witnesses to confirm their translation- but there can't be because the tongues spoken today are not even a language.


So why do you think and claim that the modern phenomenon of tongues is genuine? is it because of what is written in Acts and 1 Corinthians 14 and Mark 16?



According to you, the interpretation of 1 Cor 13 is that the gifts will cease during the millennium when Jesus rules and only these three remain: faith, hope, and love.

Heb 11:1Now faith is the assurance of what we hope for and the certainty of what we do not see.

Rom 8:23Not only that, but we ourselves, who have the firstfruits of the Spirit, groan inwardly as we wait eagerly for our adoption as sons, the redemption of our bodies. 24For in this hope we were saved; but hope that is seen is no hope at all. Who hopes for what he can already see?

Hebrews 3:6 But Christ is faithful as the Son over God's house. And we are His house, if we hold firmly to our confidence and the hope of which we boast.

If Christ will be ruling and people under His rule still hope and faith of salvation, then even during the millenium there will be no victory and Christ will be in glory. What a fake belief.
Correction.
If there's no victory during Christ's rule in the millennium and should people still hope and hold on to faith for salvation, then the death on the cross means nothing and Christ did not triumph over death and resurrection also means nothing- God forbid.
 

VCO

Senior Member
Oct 14, 2013
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Sorry i can't help your soft underbelly. Everything that is said is an insult to you but everything you say is constructive and must be accepted. looks like pride.
Too funny, if you could just not put "ecstatic utterence" in the place of "tongues" and just read it as "language" you would see the entire doctrine falls apart.

4 Anyone who speaks in a tongue edifies themselves, but the one who prophesies edifies the church.

Of course if someone is speaking a foreign language, common in Corinth btw and no one understands him/her then understanding is only limited to himself.

Why you may ask....because it is his natural language so he understands what he is saying.

This is very common sense instruction about how to deal with such a mixed congregation with various languages....sad how it has been hyper-spiritualized

In my opinion, Jesus did mention the Ecstatic Utterance, that the modern charismatics want to call tongues don't you know:


Matthew 6:7 (HCSB)
7 When you pray, don’t babble like the idolaters, since they imagine they’ll be heard for their many words.

The word that translates to BABBLE in English, is actually: battalogeō.

The second half of the word is: words, which most would recognize. The batta part, unless you study the Mystery Religions, you may not be that familiar with. In the Mystery Religions, such as Apollo, the Priests would teach their Followers to speak in their counterfeit tongues this way: Say batta, batta, batta, over and over again and the gods will turn it into a heavenly language that they can only understand.

This is an absolute fact, the exact same fomula is used in SOME of the Pentecostal Churches in Louisiana (perhaps even in other places). ONLY they substitute JESUS, JESUS, JESUS, instead of BATTA. How do I know ? ? ? My wife as a teenager in a Pentecostal Church in Louisiana, was taught to pray in tongues this exact way:

Say JESUS, JESUS, JESUS, as fast as you can, and GOD will turn it into a heavenly language that only HE can understand.

That is the honest truth. And she said I always thought it was strange that we had to learn how to do a miracle.


Even in the Apocrypha it is forbidden:

Sirach 7:14 (NRSV)
14 Do not babble in the assembly of the elders, and do not repeat yourself when you pray.
 

Waggles

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Sep 21, 2017
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The very definition of "edify" is it to enlighten, instruct........ how can one possibly be edified without understanding?
Because the Holy Spirit is working within one's heart and soul ... producing spiritual fruit and empowering the person praying in
the Spirit.
 
U

UnderGrace

Guest
Because the Holy Spirit is working within one's heart and soul ... producing spiritual fruit and empowering the person praying in
the Spirit.
So then this only happens for those who have glossolalia?
 

fredoheaven

Senior Member
Nov 17, 2015
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Whats your point? I am trying to see our disagreement, but every time you bring up a verse, I see no dilemma with what I have said and what you quote from scripture. What is it that you disagree with?
Well, I am trying to educate you with his word. Trying to explain what’s in the Bible or out of the scripture but I wouldn't do anything if you reject Bible words coming from the same bible we use. Mine is quick and powerful and like a two- edged sword. I guess you are not in still following and I just am speaking to you as barbarian. By the way, the word “barbarian” as used by Paul may perhaps may extend to English language.
 
U

UnderGrace

Guest
Well then what is in view, you state there is not enough support for "language of angels" is it a personal prayer language?
 

Waggles

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Sep 21, 2017
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Well so far we do not know what this "tongues" is an angelic language or an earthly language.
Someone care to tell me what this language is?
Is it the language of God? Where do we find this in scripture
11 For by people of strange lips and with a foreign tongue the Lord will speak to this people,
12 to whom he has said, “This is rest; give rest to the weary; and this is repose”; yet they would not hear.
13 And the word of the Lord will be to them ...
Isaiah 28: (ESV)

21 In the Law it is written, “By people of strange tongues and by the lips of foreigners will I speak to this people, and even then they will not listen to me, says the Lord.”
22 Thus tongues are a sign not for believers but for unbelievers, while prophecy is a sign not for unbelievers but for believers.
1Corinthians 14: (ESV)

Here Paul confirms that speaking in tongues is God given (Isaiah) and that the gift of speaking in tongues in a church meeting
is for unbelievers to know that it is God given; along with interpretation and prophecy.
 

Waggles

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Sep 21, 2017
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So then this only happens for those who have glossolalia?
17 But you must remember, beloved, the predictions of the apostles of our Lord Jesus Christ.
18 They said to you, “In the last time there will be scoffers, following their own ungodly passions.”
19 It is these who cause divisions, worldly people, devoid of the Spirit.
20 But you, beloved, building yourselves up in your most holy faith and praying in the Holy Spirit,
21
keep yourselves in the love of God, waiting for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ that leads to eternal life.
Jude 1: (ESV)
 
U

UnderGrace

Guest
17 But you must remember, beloved, the predictions of the apostles of our Lord Jesus Christ.
18 They said to you, “In the last time there will be scoffers, following their own ungodly passions.”
19 It is these who cause divisions, worldly people, devoid of the Spirit.
20 But you, beloved, building yourselves up in your most holy faith and praying in the Holy Spirit,
21
keep yourselves in the love of God, waiting for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ that leads to eternal life.
Jude 1: (ESV)
Praying in the Holy Spirit is not analogous to praying with glossolalia
 

VCO

Senior Member
Oct 14, 2013
10,969
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Because the Holy Spirit is working within one's heart and soul ... producing spiritual fruit and empowering the person praying in
the Spirit.


No matter what you say, that last post that you gave a red X to, is the ABSOLUTE TRUTH. She was shocked, and she when it was IDENTICAL to the way she learned to speak in Tongues, in the Pentecostal Church she grew up in.
 
U

UnderGrace

Guest
11 For by people of strange lips and with a foreign tongue the Lord will speak to this people,
12 to whom he has said, “This is rest; give rest to the weary; and this is repose”; yet they would not hear.
13 And the word of the Lord will be to them ...
Isaiah 28: (ESV)

21 In the Law it is written, “By people of strange tongues and by the lips of foreigners will I speak to this people, and even then they will not listen to me, says the Lord.”
22 Thus tongues are a sign not for believers but for unbelievers, while prophecy is a sign not for unbelievers but for believers.
1Corinthians 14: (ESV)

Here Paul confirms that speaking in tongues is God given (Isaiah) and that the gift of speaking in tongues in a church meeting
is for unbelievers to know that it is God given; along with interpretation and prophecy.
Oh really, funny how it took until 1909 or there about to show up in the churches?

A foreign tongue is exactly this a language spoken by a foreigner
 

fredoheaven

Senior Member
Nov 17, 2015
3,120
712
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In my opinion, Jesus did mention the Ecstatic Utterance, that the modern charismatics want to call tongues don't you know:


Matthew 6:7 (HCSB)
7 When you pray, don’t babble like the idolaters, since they imagine they’ll be heard for their many words.

The word that translates to BABBLE in English, is actually: battalogeō.

The second half of the word is: words, which most would recognize. The batta part, unless you study the Mystery Religions, you may not be that familiar with. In the Mystery Religions, such as Apollo, the Priests would teach their Followers to speak in their counterfeit tongues this way: Say batta, batta, batta, over and over again and the gods will turn it into a heavenly language that they can only understand.

This is an absolute fact, the exact same fomula is used in SOME of the Pentecostal Churches in Louisiana (perhaps even in other places). ONLY they substitute JESUS, JESUS, JESUS, instead of BATTA. How do I know ? ? ? My wife as a teenager in a Pentecostal Church in Louisiana, was taught to pray in tongues this exact way:

Say JESUS, JESUS, JESUS, as fast as you can, and GOD will turn it into a heavenly language that only HE can understand.

That is the honest truth. And she said I always thought it was strange that we had to learn how to do a miracle.


Even in the Apocrypha it is forbidden:

Sirach 7:14 (NRSV)
14 Do not babble in the assembly of the elders, and do not repeat yourself when you pray.
Hahaha, the heathen use vain repetition just like we do, before I became a real Christian and while praying to Mary, we say without knowledge "ora pro nobis " Good point on batta since sound give sense our Tagalog "bata" meaning a child in the early age has very repetitious manner...
 

Waggles

Senior Member
Sep 21, 2017
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Oh really, funny how it took until 1909 or there about to show up in the churches?
What is this false assertion?
Speaking, or more correctly praying, in tongues has always been part of Church history, especially since the Reformation and also
with the great revivals of each century.
 

Dino246

Senior Member
Jun 30, 2015
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You think yourself as an authority in logical fallacies
Wrong. I just recognize many of them in your arguments. Perhaps I'm the first person you've encountered who examines your reasoning this way.

but i have already told you, logic doesn't work in matters spiritual. Logic is misplaced when it comes to the bible ; talk of virgin birth and resurrection and salvation and healing but logic?! no thanks, try it somewhere else.
I find the virgin birth, salvation and healing resoundingly logical. If you don't, that's not my issue, and it is no argument against logic per se.

What you may have missed is that I'm not arguing that logic should be applied to Scripture. I'm applying it to your arguments, and finding that many of them fail.

You argue for common sense as a test in one post, and later argue that logic is misplaced. That's inconsistent.
 

Dino246

Senior Member
Jun 30, 2015
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Doesn't matter, tongues today can not be interpreted because they mean nothing and even if there's a self proclaimed interpreter, there must be witnesses to confirm their translation- but there can't be because the tongues spoken today are not even a language.
Fallacy: circular reasoning.

According to you, the interpretation of 1 Cor 13 is that the gifts will cease during the millennium when Jesus rules and only these three remain: faith, hope, and love.
Where have I claimed that? Please quote me.