A NON-CHARISMATIC UNDERSTANDING OF TONGUES

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Dino246

Senior Member
Jun 30, 2015
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Sorry i can't help your soft underbelly. Everything that is said is an insult to you but everything you say is constructive and must be accepted. looks like pride.
Yawn. You grossly overvalue the impact of your pathetic little jabs. If acting like a jackdonkey makes you feel like a man, you go right ahead.
 
U

UnderGrace

Guest
Fallacy: circular reasoning.


Where have I claimed that? Please quote me.
It seems to me that your logic proofs do not really matter since the onus is on those who believe that glossolalia is "language" to prove that it is..........and no one has been able to do so, I am referring to the glossolalia presently done in churches.

The evidence is far, far higher that it is not a language

How does one prove unintelligible speech is language?

The argument that "it is spiritual" and science does not apply is a cope out to me, since it can only come from someone who does not understand or accept the science much like flat earthers

I find it baffling...I really wish someone could make a sound argument why they think it is language?
 

Dino246

Senior Member
Jun 30, 2015
17,523
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It seems to me that your logic proofs do not really matter since the onus is on those who believe that glossolalia is "language" to prove that it is
I haven't set out to "prove" logically that glossolalia is language. I have, however, demonstrated that many of the arguments against it being a language are logically fallacious and therefore invalid.

The argument that "it is spiritual" and science does not apply is a cope out to me, since it can only come from someone who does not understand or accept the science much like flat earthers
That's an opinion followed by a double fallacy. The first is colloquially called "No True Scotsman" and the second is guilt by association.
 
U

UnderGrace

Guest
I haven't set out to "prove" logically that glossolalia is language. I have, however, demonstrated that many of the arguments against it being a language are logically fallacious and therefore invalid.


That's an opinion followed by a double fallacy. The first is colloquially called "No True Scotsman" and the second is guilt by association.
Mr. Dino....

Yes it is opinion, we are not in first year logic class....I have moved well beyond that.

arguments against it being a language
the arguments about modern "ecstatic utterances" being a language is science not rules of logic and science says very clearly it is not language

We know what language is.
 
G

GtrPkr

Guest
In my opinion, Jesus did mention the Ecstatic Utterance, that the modern charismatics want to call tongues don't you know:


Matthew 6:7 (HCSB)
7 When you pray, don’t babble like the idolaters, since they imagine they’ll be heard for their many words.

The word that translates to BABBLE in English, is actually: battalogeō.

The second half of the word is: words, which most would recognize. The batta part, unless you study the Mystery Religions, you may not be that familiar with. In the Mystery Religions, such as Apollo, the Priests would teach their Followers to speak in their counterfeit tongues this way: Say batta, batta, batta, over and over again and the gods will turn it into a heavenly language that they can only understand.

This is an absolute fact, the exact same fomula is used in SOME of the Pentecostal Churches in Louisiana (perhaps even in other places). ONLY they substitute JESUS, JESUS, JESUS, instead of BATTA. How do I know ? ? ? My wife as a teenager in a Pentecostal Church in Louisiana, was taught to pray in tongues this exact way:

Say JESUS, JESUS, JESUS, as fast as you can, and GOD will turn it into a heavenly language that only HE can understand.

That is the honest truth. And she said I always thought it was strange that we had to learn how to do a miracle.


Even in the Apocrypha it is forbidden:

Sirach 7:14 (NRSV)
14 Do not babble in the assembly of the elders, and do not repeat yourself when you pray.
LOL..... I've had a very similar experience with some "Name it and Claim it Prosperity" friends of mine. They tried real hard to teach me how to "mouth" the words and said, "It's easy, all it takes is practice...." But the more I objected the more they accused me of "Harboring a spirit of hindrance."
 

VCO

Senior Member
Oct 14, 2013
10,970
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Hahaha, the heathen use vain repetition just like we do, before I became a real Christian and while praying to Mary, we say without knowledge "ora pro nobis " Good point on batta since sound give sense our Tagalog "bata" meaning a child in the early age has very repetitious manner...


That teaching method in the Mystery Religion dates back at least to 400 BC, years before Christ. If you are using that method to learn to speak in Ecstatic Utterences, that you call tongues; in my opinion, you are intimating the Pagan tongues.
 
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GtrPkr

Guest
As an outsider to the U.S.A. I notice that much of Christian worship and doctrine is peculiar to America.
And this certainly applies to much of the charismatic Pentecostal churches I have seen on various TV channels and on YouTube.
BUT what you need to experience is Bible obedient disciplined Pentecost worship that is not out of order and preaches sound
doctrine. Fortunately, Australia is home to the largest Bible disciplined Pentecostal church around - no hoo-haa, non-charismatic,
no music based entertainment replacing preaching the word: and the gifts of tongues, interpretation and prophecy all conducted
decently in order according to scripture: !Corinthians 14.

Lucky for you we have an assembly in Fresno, California that also complies with the word of God and conducts itself properly:
feel free to check them out -

https://trffresno.org/

Nick :)
I've always wanted to visit Australia! Every "ozzie" I've ever met has has truly been down to earth and no nonsense :cool:
 

Dino246

Senior Member
Jun 30, 2015
17,523
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Mr. Dino....

Yes it is opinion, we are not in first year logic class....I have moved well beyond that.

the arguments about modern "ecstatic utterances" being a language is science not rules of logic and science says very clearly it is not language

We know what language is.
I can appreciate that you aren't a beginner in logic. After all, you did manage to employ two fallacies in one sentence. ;)

Whether any (or even every) particular "gloss" is found to have the scientific markers of language, while interesting in and of itself, is not proof either way for its genuineness as a manifestation of the spiritual gift. Scripture simply doesn't use modern scientific "approval" as a criteria. People are welcome to do so, if they choose. There's just no point in arguing over the length of the rope when you're not even using the same yardstick. :)
 

fredoheaven

Senior Member
Nov 17, 2015
3,120
712
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That teaching method in the Mystery Religion dates back at least to 400 BC, years before Christ. If you are using that method to learn to speak in Ecstatic Utterences, that you call tongues; in my opinion, you are intimating the Pagan tongues.
Of course, the Bible is good enough for me VCO, don't need to learn Ecstatic Utterances. I would rather learned "speaking with tongues":) just like Apostle Paul did. he spake not only Greek but also Hebrew, Aramaic and some say he had spoken Latin and probably have known/idea about English!
 

VCO

Senior Member
Oct 14, 2013
10,970
4,074
113
LOL..... I've had a very similar experience with some "Name it and Claim it Prosperity" friends of mine. They tried real hard to teach me how to "mouth" the words and said, "It's easy, all it takes is practice...." But the more I objected the more they accused me of "Harboring a spirit of hindrance."

WOW, and they never even suspected that they themselves are in a FALSE DOCRTINE of tongues speaking. You can not learn to speak in tongues, that is a FALSE GIFT. If GOD INTENDED TO GIVE A PERSON GENUINE SPIRITUAL TONGUES, HE DOES THE MIRACLE THROUGH YOU.

Look at this verse:

Mark 16:20 (HCSB)
20 And they went out and preached everywhere, the Lord working with them and confirming the word by the accompanying signs.


See it, the LORD is the one WORKING THE MIRACLES including the MIRACLE OF TONGUES.
 
U

UnderGrace

Guest
I can appreciate that you aren't a beginner in logic. After all, you did manage to employ two fallacies in one sentence. ;)

Whether any (or even every) particular "gloss" is found to have the scientific markers of language, while interesting in and of itself, is not proof either way for its genuineness as a manifestation of the spiritual gift. Scripture simply doesn't use modern scientific "approval" as a criteria. People are welcome to do so, if they choose. There's just no point in arguing over the length of the rope when you're not even using the same yardstick. :)
A yard stick is a yard stick my friend, they both measure yards, and truth is truth, to hide behind the 'its spiritual" is a lazy argument

I am speaking to empirical data not philosophy, this is the piece you keep missing

It is not language, so what is it then?
 
G

GtrPkr

Guest
WOW, and they never even suspected that they themselves are in a FALSE DOCRTINE of tongues speaking. You can not learn to speak in tongues, that is a FALSE GIFT. If GOD INTENDED TO GIVE A PERSON GENUINE SPIRITUAL TONGUES, HE DOES THE MIRACLE THROUGH YOU.

Look at this verse:

Mark 16:20 (HCSB)
20 And they went out and preached everywhere, the Lord working with them and confirming the word by the accompanying signs.


See it, the LORD is the one WORKING THE MIRACLES including the MIRACLE OF TONGUES.
Actually.... I found the "hindering spirit" accusation to be quite ironic. :cool:
 

Dino246

Senior Member
Jun 30, 2015
17,523
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A yard stick is a yard stick my friend, they both measure yards
You accuse me later of "missing" something, and yet here you seem to have missed my point completely.

to hide behind the 'its spiritual" is a lazy argument
Those are your words, not mine.

I am speaking to empirical data not philosophy, this is the piece you keep missing
I'm not missing it at all. I understand perfectly well what you're saying. To draw a parallel, I'm saying that the door is green, and you're insisting that it smells like turmeric.

It is not language, so what is it then?
As I don't embrace the relevance of your yardstick, I don't accept the obligation of your question.
 
U

UnderGrace

Guest
You accuse me later of "missing" something, and yet here you seem to have missed my point completely.


Those are your words, not mine.


I'm not missing it at all. I understand perfectly well what you're saying. To draw a parallel, I'm saying that the door is green, and you're insisting that it smells like turmeric.


As I don't embrace the relevance of your yardstick, I don't accept the obligation of your question.

Yes it seems to be this way with glossolalia in modern day churches.......... if is not an earthly language (according to science), and not an angelic language (since the text is obviously hyperbole) I do not know how it would be defined, certainly scripture speaks of gift of languages, however glossa is always a reference to language (or the physical tongue), however, what occurs in present day churches does not match that either?

I guess we will leave it there then.
 
U

UnderGrace

Guest
You accuse me later of "missing" something, and yet here you seem to have missed my point completely.
Yes I guess I missed it, if we are both measuring a rope and we both have a yard stick we should both come up with the same measurement?
as we say in Italian ....
e pertanto logico:)
 

Noose

Senior Member
Apr 18, 2016
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Wrong. I just recognize many of them in your arguments. Perhaps I'm the first person you've encountered who examines your reasoning this way.


I find the virgin birth, salvation and healing resoundingly logical. If you don't, that's not my issue, and it is no argument against logic per se.

What you may have missed is that I'm not arguing that logic should be applied to Scripture. I'm applying it to your arguments, and finding that many of them fail.


You argue for common sense as a test in one post, and later argue that logic is misplaced. That's inconsistent.
Are you trying to reduce this argument into a philosophical one? It is very easy to rumble on about fallacies but very difficult to prove meaningless words/tongues. And you have no basis for dismissing the 'tongues' spoken by snake handlers. You suggest that they are a different group from you and you also suggest that their tongues are fake and you can not be associated with them and what they do.

This must be the fallacy of all fallacies because the snake handlers practice their tongues from their understanding of 1 Cor 12-14 and Acts just like you do. If the snake is put down for a minute, there's absolutely no difference between you and them.
 

Noose

Senior Member
Apr 18, 2016
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The Scripture also talks of the millennium, but that hasn't happened yet either. Again, flawed reasoning.
Fallacy: circular reasoning.


Where have I claimed that? Please quote me.
The Scripture also talks of the millennium, but that hasn't happened yet either. Again, flawed reasoning.
You argue but have no basis, you even loosing track of your own argument. You said all gifts will cease during Christ's millennial rule and i pointed to you, Paul says in 1 Cor 13 that these three shall remain when every gift ceases, Hope/Faith/Love. My question is, do you think during Christ's rule people will still be hoping and having faith unto salvation and praying?
 

Noose

Senior Member
Apr 18, 2016
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Because the Holy Spirit is working within one's heart and soul ... producing spiritual fruit and empowering the person praying in
the Spirit.
Then why must tongues be interpreted for the church to be edified?
 

Noose

Senior Member
Apr 18, 2016
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I can appreciate that you aren't a beginner in logic. After all, you did manage to employ two fallacies in one sentence. ;)

Whether any (or even every) particular "gloss" is found to have the scientific markers of language, while interesting in and of itself, is not proof either way for its genuineness as a manifestation of the spiritual gift. Scripture simply doesn't use modern scientific "approval" as a criteria. People are welcome to do so, if they choose. There's just no point in arguing over the length of the rope when you're not even using the same yardstick. :)
I've not attended a logic class but i can tell this argument is fallacious.

We can tell from the bible that the word 'tongue' refers to languages:

Acts 2:4 And they were all filled with the Holy Spirit and began to speak in other tongues as the Spirit enabled them.

The word 'other' implies that whatever they spoke before is also a 'tongue' only that the spirit enabled them to speak in new tongues. If whatever they spoke before was a language which we know it was, then also new utterances must have been languages.
If they originally spoke Greek, then speaking Greek is also speaking in tongues, if Hebrew, Hebrew becomes a tongue and this applies to all the languages on earth.

This is the yard stick, there are no other yard sticks.