against oneness pentecostalism

prophecyman · Mar 7, 2012

Quote: god the father is a spirit that does not make him the holy spirit. Authored by Johnathan.

Sorry friend but you are grossly mistaken. The Father is Holy who commands us to be holy in all manner of conversation (lifestyle). The father is Spirit according to Jesus the Son, it was the Holy Spirit who had begotten the Son, the Holy Spirit is not another person but is El- Olam. There can not be two Spirits, but the Spirit is One, Even Paul the Apostle refered to him as the Holy Spirit in Hebrews 3:7-11, and I seriously doubt that you did not compare it to Psalm 65:7-11

No where in the bible does it state that there is three persons, it is only as most people infer. No mention of a Trinity anywhere in the scriptures, it is the error of Tertulian 180-240 A.D.

If all the fullness of God was in Christ and God was in Christ, then in what form did he dwell? Thats right he dwelt as the Holy Spirit in the Son. No where in the scriptures does it mention that the Holy Spirit is another person apart from the Father.

The Son who was once flesh and blood is now in his glorified body, and within that glory is the Father which is manifest in the face of Jesus the Christ. Sorry Johnathan you or no one else can even find one single reference in all of the Scriptures that says there is a trinity, or says says that God is in three persons, or is called the Triune God... NO Where!

Trinitarians are without a scriptural refernce, sorry 1st John 5:7 does not count.

JaumeJ · Mar 7, 2012

prophecyman said:

The term, Trinity, is a simple dogma. It is a name given to the Father, Son and Holy Spirit, and quite harmless to use as a reference. When Isaiah prophesied the coming of the birth of Jesus Christ he said he would be called Everlasting Father, Wonderful Counselor, and Prince of Peace. These are the three manifestations of One God. He is all capable, and He does what pleases Him. It is nothing for Him to be the Three yet eternally One. I believe Jesus is the Father, and the Father is Spirit, and He would that all who worship Him worship Him in spirit and truth. This is a matter of faith, not a matter of intellectual debate. Here is where the teaching, "Why destroy thyself with what is falsely called knowledge" comes into play. God bless all in Jesus Christ, and all who will come to Him, amen.

Red33 · Mar 7, 2012

PneumaPsucheSoma said:

Your being a bonehead about the Trinity. Everyone knows that Son was the expressed image of the person of the Father (Heb 1:3), God as the LOGOS manifested in the flesh as the Son (1Tim 3:16), who revealed the Father because the Father was in the Son (Jn 14:13) and the Son was in the Father (Jn 1:18)(Jn 10:38) and they had the same life (Jn 5:16) and you can't believe in one without believing in the other DUH! The Son came to reveal that He was in the Father and came forth from the Father and told His disciples so because they were having a difficult time with all this (Jn 14:6-9).

The Son is in the Father and vice versa but they are distinct in function and operation yet they are one in knowledge, wisdom and understanding in every respect. So if you have seen one then you have seen the other, if you believe in one then you believe in the other (Jn 10:38, 14:1,11, 17:21). The Spirit reveals all of this to the heart of man through theantric action, The Father planned it, the Son executed the plan and the Spirit reveals it to the heart of man. It could never happen without all three that are co-equal, co-eternal and cooperate with each other perfectly, because of perfect oneness that is immutable and uncreated and indestructible because they reveal only ONE GOD and ONE GODHEAD that always was and ever shall be, andnot three like some foolish people like to believe or cause trouble with!

jonathanbchristian · Mar 7, 2012

i would like to note this thread is not against god's oneness it is against oneness pentecostalism's false doctrines. and another thing 1 john 5:7 always counts. when oneness pentecostals will realize that three bear record in heaven then they might understand the truth. if the father is the holy spirit then how do both bear record in heaven. oneness pentecostalism refuses to teach that there are three. 1 john 5:7 says there are three and one. that's what trinitarians teach.

prophecyman · Mar 7, 2012

jonathanbchristian said:

i would like to note this thread is not against god's oneness it is against oneness pentecostalism's false doctrines. and another thing 1 john 5:7 always counts. when oneness pentecostals will realize that three bear record in heaven then they might understand the truth. if the father is the holy spirit then how do both bear record in heaven. oneness pentecostalism refuses to teach that there are three. 1 john 5:7 says there are three and one. that's what trinitarians teach.

Why Johnathan these three are one!

PneumaPsucheSoma · Mar 7, 2012

Red33 said:

Your being a bonehead about the Trinity. Everyone knows that Son was the expressed image of the person of the Father (Heb 1:3), God as the LOGOS manifested in the flesh as the Son (1Tim 3:16), who revealed the Father because the Father was in the Son (Jn 14:13) and the Son was in the Father (Jn 1:18)(Jn 10:38) and they had the same life (Jn 5:16) and you can't believe in one without believing in the other DUH! The Son came to reveal that He was in the Father and came forth from the Father and told His disciples so because they were having a difficult time with all this (Jn 14:6-9).

The Son is in the Father and vice versa but they are distinct in function and operation yet they are one in knowledge, wisdom and understanding in every respect. So if you have seen one then you have seen the other, if you believe in one then you believe in the other (Jn 10:38, 14:1,11, 17:21). The Spirit reveals all of this to the heart of man through theantric action, The Father planned it, the Son executed the plan and the Spirit reveals it to the heart of man. It could never happen without all three that are co-equal, co-eternal and cooperate with each other perfectly, because of perfect oneness that is immutable and uncreated and indestructible because they reveal only ONE GOD and ONE GODHEAD that always was and ever shall be, andnot three like some foolish people like to believe or cause trouble with!

I'm not the bonehead who believes God is three co-equal, co-eternal "persons".

At creation, which God-"person" spoke?

PneumaPsucheSoma · Mar 7, 2012

Red33 said:

"express image of his hupostasis" is Heb. 1:3; not "person of the Father".

God as the LOGOS? Whose Logos was it? Which God-"person"'s Logos was it? Who spoke? Which God-"person"? If the Son was an eternally pre-existent separate God-"person", who spoke Him? And how does a God-"person" speak another God-"person"?

Whose Logos was it? Which God-"person" spoke?

No. If you have seen the Son, you have seen the Father. The text doesn't say the rest of what you infer.

You need a PayPal account for me to send $5 for every use of the word "theantric".

Is God three "persons" or not? If so, which God-"person" spoke at creation?

Red33 · Mar 7, 2012

Anyone that reads the above post can see how contrived you are in how you communicate and the content and substance of your response. There is nothing in your depiction of the Godhead that really conveys truth to the heart of the believer that would make him worship and magnify Christ in Spirit and truth. The Godhead that involves the three immutable persons of the Trinity are all impersonal in nature, meaning they do not need a personal response from us or any part of creation to be who they are as the eternal Godhead who is the possessor of eternal life that was not created nor can be destroyed nor understood because God's ways are past finding out. You continue to utter rhetoric that has no substance, no life and no relevance to the believer in their fellowship and relationship with the Father and with Christ, who is the head of the body, the church. Our fellowship is with the Father and the Son through the Holy Spirit and these three agree in one whether you believe those scriptures should be canonized or not.

PneumaPsucheSoma · Mar 7, 2012

Red33 said:

Enough personal judgement and pious double-talk. The rhetoric is yours.

Who spoke? That's not contrived.

How can you believe in whom you have not heard?

Which God-"person" spoke?

And I have no issue with canonization of 1 John 5:7-8. But YOU need to look at what agrees in one. You always misquote and misrepresent scripture. You should hide it in your heart. Then you won't misquote it.

Red33 · Mar 7, 2012

PneumaPsucheSoma said:

Nothing double meaning in that, is it sraight forward and direct. Have fun with your own thoughts about the Godhead but as the scriptures testify in these last days He has spoken unto us by His Son, the expressed image of His PERSON (Heb 1:2,3).

PneumaPsucheSoma · Mar 7, 2012

Red33 said:

Yes. The express (not expressed) image of His hupostasis. (Yet another misquote of scripture.) Exegete hupostasis for us. It's also in Heb. 12:1. "Now faith is the substance (hupostasis)...". So faith is also a "person"; perhaps the 4th in your Godhead?

"Persons" is extra-biblical inference. God is not three "persons".

Who spoke?

You can't answer, because it's an unresolvable paradox. God is not a Trinity.

PneumaPsucheSoma · Mar 7, 2012

Red33 said:

And did you check 1 John 5:7-8 to see what agrees in one? You said nothing of your constantly misquoting scripture because you don't know the Word.

wattie · Mar 8, 2012

I agree with essences or manifestations - do have trouble with persons.

Problem.. if you seperate the three into actual seperate beings.. you end up with polytheism

course if you mean persons- by 'personalities' or 'expressions' then I can understand that.

Jesus prayed to the Father - ya

does that make them seperate? I believe- only in visible appearance.. and not spiritually.

anyhoo

I agree with Red33 in that the Holy Spirit, the Son and the Father are co-equal, co-eternal manifestations of the one triune being.. God.

If you seperate them out and have different beings.. then you end up having to explain how each being can work as fully God and yet not fall into polytheism. If there is inferiority or inequality here then either the Son, the Father, the Holy Spirit is not fully God.. and that .. my friends.. contradicts scripture !

'there are three that bear record in heaven and these three are one' .. yes 'these three are one' is inserted.. but it is merely an elaboration of something that is happening all thru scripture. It is not an unbliblical or extrabiblical reference.

If Jesus is not God.. we have no hope.. he has no power to give everlasting life

If the Holy Spirit is not God.. same as the above.

Red33 · Mar 8, 2012

God was manifest (one that is made known being hidden) in the flesh through the person of His Son (1Tim 3:16). The Father was in the Son reconciling the world unto Himself (2Cor 5:18-20) and was the undergirding and upholding who lifted up and magnified the Son in human form and in the likeness of sinful flesh all the way to the cross. The Son was with the Father and in the Father from the beginning (Jn 1:1-5, 1Jn 1:1-4) and was manifest at the appointed time ((Rom 5:6, Gal 4:4) as the expression (or out raying of God's imprint and divine nature) revealed as the Lamb of God to take away sin (Jn 1:29).

There was never a moment or thought or action or deed that separated them from another until the sin of the human race plunged upon the body of His Son on that cross and for a brief moment God had forsaken His Son because of sin (Mt 27:46). This is the very moment when God the Son identified with the sins of mankind, was numbered with the transgressors and bore their sins and iniquities (Is 53:5,12, Mt 15:28) condemning sin in His flesh (Rom 8:3) and suffering death.

There was joint participation between the Father and the Son being separate and distinct in their function and operation but absolutely one in their mission and intent to satisfy the justice of God in relationship to the wages of sin and to bring eternal redemption to sinful man through the shed blood and the offering of Himself through the eternal Spirit without spot to God (Heb 9:14). There are three distinct functions and operations involving three persons of the Godhead that went on in this great plan of dealing with sin and providing eternal redemption for sinful man.

We can see this plan unfold through the written word and the revelation of the Holy Spirit from eternity past to eternity present and the amazing effects and impact it will have in eternity future. We have only the goodness and greatness of God through the three eternal persons of the Godhead and Trinity to thank for the rest of eternity through the eternal life that we received by grace through faith and through the redemption of the Son of God, who became sin that we might become and be made the righteousness of God in Him (2Cor 5:21).

dishchat · Mar 8, 2012

jonathanbchristian said:

i would like to note this thread is not against god's oneness it is against oneness pentecostalism's false doctrines. and another thing 1 john 5:7 always counts. when oneness pentecostals will realize that three bear record in heaven then they might understand the truth. if the father is the holy spirit then how do both bear record in heaven. oneness pentecostalism refuses to teach that there are three. 1 john 5:7 says there are three and one. that's what trinitarians teach.

yes three offices but not three different person.

jonathanbchristian · Mar 8, 2012

dishchat said:

three bearing record makes three persons not three offices.

PneumaPsucheSoma · Mar 8, 2012

Red33 said:

God was manifest (one that is made known being hidden) in the flesh through the person of His Son (1Tim 3:16). The Father was in the Son reconciling the world unto Himself (2Cor 5:18-20) and was the undergirding and upholding who lifted up and magnified the Son in human form and in the likeness of sinful flesh all the way to the cross. The Son was with the Father and in the Father from the beginning (Jn 1:1-5, 1Jn 1:1-4) and was manifest at the appointed time ((Rom 5:6, Gal 4:4) as the expression (or out raying of God's imprint and divine nature) revealed as the Lamb of God to take away sin (Jn 1:29).

There was never a moment or thought or action or deed that separated them from another until the sin of the human race plunged upon the body of His Son on that cross and for a brief moment God had forsaken His Son because of sin (Mt 27:46). This is the very moment when God the Son identified with the sins of mankind, was numbered with the transgressors and bore their sins and iniquities (Is 53:5,12, Mt 15:28) condemning sin in His flesh (Rom 8:3) and suffering death.

There was joint participation between the Father and the Son being separate and distinct in their function and operation but absolutely one in their mission and intent to satisfy the justice of God in relationship to the wages of sin and to bring eternal redemption to sinful man through the shed blood and the offering of Himself through the eternal Spirit without spot to God (Heb 9:14). There are three distinct functions and operations involving three persons of the Godhead that went on in this great plan of dealing with sin and providing eternal redemption for sinful man.

We can see this plan unfold through the written word and the revelation of the Holy Spirit from eternity past to eternity present and the amazing effects and impact it will have in eternity future. We have only the goodness and greatness of God through the three eternal persons of the Godhead and Trinity to thank for the rest of eternity through the eternal life that we received by grace through faith and through the redemption of the Son of God, who became sin that we might become and be made the righteousness of God in Him (2Cor 5:21).

And.... Which of these supposedly co-equal, co-eternal God-"persons" spoke at creation?

You probably don't even realize that ANY answer you give nullifies the Trinity.

Trinity is error. Filioque is error upon error.

Why won't you answer? Do you contend God did not speak at creation?

PneumaPsucheSoma · Mar 8, 2012

Red33 said:

God was manifest (one that is made known being hidden) in the flesh through the person of His Son (1Tim 3:16). The Father was in the Son reconciling the world unto Himself (2Cor 5:18-20) and was the undergirding and upholding who lifted up and magnified the Son in human form and in the likeness of sinful flesh all the way to the cross. The Son was with the Father and in the Father from the beginning (Jn 1:1-5, 1Jn 1:1-4) and was manifest at the appointed time ((Rom 5:6, Gal 4:4) as the expression (or out raying of God's imprint and divine nature) revealed as the Lamb of God to take away sin (Jn 1:29).

There was never a moment or thought or action or deed that separated them from another until the sin of the human race plunged upon the body of His Son on that cross and for a brief moment God had forsaken His Son because of sin (Mt 27:46). This is the very moment when God the Son identified with the sins of mankind, was numbered with the transgressors and bore their sins and iniquities (Is 53:5,12, Mt 15:28) condemning sin in His flesh (Rom 8:3) and suffering death.

There was joint participation between the Father and the Son being separate and distinct in their function and operation but absolutely one in their mission and intent to satisfy the justice of God in relationship to the wages of sin and to bring eternal redemption to sinful man through the shed blood and the offering of Himself through the eternal Spirit without spot to God (Heb 9:14). There are three distinct functions and operations involving three persons of the Godhead that went on in this great plan of dealing with sin and providing eternal redemption for sinful man.

We can see this plan unfold through the written word and the revelation of the Holy Spirit from eternity past to eternity present and the amazing effects and impact it will have in eternity future. We have only the goodness and greatness of God through the three eternal persons of the Godhead and Trinity to thank for the rest of eternity through the eternal life that we received by grace through faith and through the redemption of the Son of God, who became sin that we might become and be made the righteousness of God in Him (2Cor 5:21).

And.... Which of these supposedly co-equal, co-eternal God-"persons" spoke at creation?

You probably don't even realize that ANY answer you give nullifies the Trinity.

Trinity is error. Filioque is error upon error.

Why won't you answer? Do you contend God did not speak at creation?

Hold on to orthodox indoctrination of doctrines of men. Ignore the truth. It will be the truth still. God is not three "persons".

PneumaPsucheSoma · Mar 8, 2012

jonathanbchristian said:

Threeness is NOT inherently "persons", regardless of your orthodox indoctrination. Nor is it offices.

Exegete "persons" from the sacred text. You can't. It isn't there. It's inference of pre-supposed implication. It's eisegesis.

dishchat · Mar 8, 2012

jonathanbchristian said:

it does not say three person. It says : Father, word, Holy Spirit. Not three persons but three offices that God is making at the same time.

against oneness pentecostalism

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