AM I JEW OR A GENTILE IF I KEEP THE COMMANDMENTS ?

[cfultz3]

follow the subject please. return to the posts in question.



get it?

So you agree that the Law is not abolished, that the moralistic Laws of God are to still be followed, seeing that the Spirit leads by that one thing which UPHOLDS the Law, namely: love?

Is there one person here who has been saying that we are to be under the Old Covenant? Not from what I have seen. So, what trick is there in one having said that we are still obligated to follow the moralistic Laws? Surely, the one who teaches and does things against the Law is called the least in the Kingdom from the heavens. And surely, the one who teaches and does the commandments (written morals of God's essence) are called great in His Kingdom here on Earth.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

So you agree that the Law is not abolished, that the moralistic Laws of God are to still be followed, seeing that the Spirit leads by that one thing which UPHOLDS the Law, namely: love?

Is there one person here who has been saying that we are to be under the Old Covenant? Not from what I have seen. So, what trick is there in one having said that we are still obligated to follow the moralistic Laws? Surely, the one who teaches and does things against the Law is called the least in the Kingdom from the heavens. And surely, the one who teaches and does the commandments (written morals of God's essence) are called great in His Kingdom here on Earth.

will one who is doing the fruit of the spirit break the commands?

Can the law show is how to fulfill the fruit of the spirit?

 

[eternally-gratefull]

In what way is Just-Me playing with Scripture? Where he implies the Law still has spiritual significance for Christians, seeing that the Spirit leads by love which is essentially the satisfying (fulfilling) of the Law? Or that the proof of a carnal mind is one which does not subject itself to the Law from the Spirit?

Does not the Law speak of God's essence? How can saying such hurt one's standing, when all they are saying is that God has not changed, all those moral 'do nots' still are against His nature and are still considered evil in His sight. All those moral 'dos' still are pleasing before Him and are still considered good in His sight.

We Christians establish the Law. But, those of us who teach against it are called the least in the Kingdom from the heavens. If we teach against God's Law, are we not in reality teaching against God's morals?

you do understand Just me is picking and chosing which law to follow do you not?

You do understand he ignores the fact that once the schoolmaster has led us to Christ, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.

You do understand just me believes if the law is not followed in a certain way, A person can not be saved, or will lose their salvation do you not?

 

[cfultz3]

will one who is doing the fruit of the spirit break the commands?

Can the law show is how to fulfill the fruit of the spirit?

My point exactly. If one is hearkening to the Spirit, then they are in essence fulfilling God's commands (also known as moralistic laws). If one is following the Spirit who is leading by love, then the Law is being upheld and thus, it has not been abolished but being satisfied (fulfilled) for/by the Christian through the leading of the Spirit.

You asked if the Law can show us how to fulfill the fruit of the Spirit (assuming: how to produce a fruit of the Spirit)? And to that I say that the Law can show you what God defines as good or evil and what He requires of those who will follow Him. However, that is righteousness through the flesh and as we all know, that righteousness is as a filthy rag before God.

So, I will have to say that the Law cannot show us how to produce a fruit of the Spirit, seeing that such fruit as from the Spirit is what is pleasing before God. That is, the Law upon stone only shows us how to be pleasing before God by our flesh (righteous deeds by self). But, that same Law written upon our hearts, shows us how to be pleasing before God by our spirit through the Spirit (righteous deeds done in conjunction with the Spirit).

Either way, it is still God's moral characteristics which are described by Law. We Christians have laid aside that fleshly attempt to be pleasing before God and have made it a spiritual matter. That is, we Christians hearken to the Spirit who speaks that same Law which has been written upon our heart which co-testifies with our conscious to this Truth, seeing that even the Gentiles, those having not the Law, do naturally those things of the Law.

 

[cfultz3]

you do understand Just me is picking and chosing which law to follow do you not?

You do understand he ignores the fact that once the schoolmaster has led us to Christ, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.

You do understand just me believes if the law is not followed in a certain way, A person can not be saved, or will lose their salvation do you not?

What do you have to say about this, Just Me?

 

[Zinzerio]

And he shall judge among the nations, and shall rebuke many people: and they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruninghooks: nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more.

—Isaiah 2:4

Ephesians 6:12 The Full Armor of God
…11Put on the full armor of God, so that you will be able to stand firm against the schemes of the devil. 12For our struggle is not against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the powers, against the world forces of this darkness, against the spiritual forces of wickedness in the heavenly places. 13Therefore, take up the full armor of God, so that you will be able to resist in the evil day, and having done everything, to stand firm.…

allwhite prod the reason i have quoted you on this is because your scripture could be taken as to drop your Guard and not look out for the enemy, nothing personal.

But as your scripture you posted relates to the new world which as you know and also judging from this thread has not yet happened, so as we wait for the new world to come in gods own good time we must be patient but we also put the full armor of God on and be ready to proclaim his truth, for the sake of your brothers and sisters, one must stand firm (Stand firm therefore,

HAVING GIRDED YOUR LOINS WITH TRUTH, and HAVING PUT ON THE BREASTPLATE OF RIGHTEOUSNESS,

Put on the full armor of God, so that you will be able to stand firm against the schemes of the devil.

For are battle is against the evil forces that looks to snatch your brother into the fire, march with hope in your heart from God. god bless

 

[Vaudeville]

So you agree that the Law is not abolished, that the moralistic Laws of God are to still be followed, seeing that the Spirit leads by that one thing which UPHOLDS the Law, namely: love?

Is there one person here who has been saying that we are to be under the Old Covenant? Not from what I have seen. So, what trick is there in one having said that we are still obligated to follow the moralistic Laws? Surely, the one who teaches and does things against the Law is called the least in the Kingdom from the heavens. And surely, the one who teaches and does the commandments (written morals of God's essence) are called great in His Kingdom here on Earth.

the (old) mosaic covenant with it's laws and regulations is abolished. do you agree? it's quite clear. the jews don't like this, and is one reason they reject Christ. it's the same reason certain individuals wrench the scriptures and attempt to keep what is obsolete alive for the forgiven in Christ.

what is the heart of the new covenant? sins forgotten forever, no yearly reminder involving earthly priests and animal blood (covering).

Hebrews 8
12 For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more.
13 In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away.


yet you have men and women who love their awful paper tiger mosaic religious postering so much they're trying to say the new covenant is just a better old one.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

My point exactly. If one is hearkening to the Spirit, then they are in essence fulfilling God's commands (also known as moralistic laws). If one is following the Spirit who is leading by love, then the Law is being upheld and thus, it has not been abolished but being satisfied (fulfilled) for/by the Christian through the leading of the Spirit.

Yet Gods commands are found everywhere, not just the law. so why do we want to call it only the law?

You asked if the Law can show us how to fulfill the fruit of the Spirit (assuming: how to produce a fruit of the Spirit)? And to that I say that the Law can show you what God defines as good or evil and what He requires of those who will follow Him. However, that is righteousness through the flesh and as we all know, that righteousness is as a filthy rag before God.

so it can show me how to..

Galatians 5:22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, kindness, goodness, faithfulness,

I did not ask if it showed how poorly we were at it, I understand that

So, I will have to say that the Law cannot show us how to produce a fruit of the Spirit, seeing that such fruit as from the Spirit is what is pleasing before God. That is, the Law upon stone only shows us how to be pleasing before God by our flesh (righteous deeds by self). But, that same Law written upon our hearts, shows us how to be pleasing before God by our spirit through the Spirit (righteous deeds done in conjunction with the Spirit).

YES, which is what I have been saying all along.

Either way, it is still God's moral characteristics which are described by Law.

yes which we can not keep right? and the penalty for not keeping it is death right?

We Christians have laid aside that fleshly attempt to be pleasing before God and have made it a spiritual matter. That is, we Christians hearken to the Spirit who speaks that same Law which has been written upon our heart which co-testifies with our conscious to this Truth, seeing that even the Gentiles, those having not the Law, do naturally those things of the Law.

Yes.

but this is not what Just-me is claiming, she is claiming the literal law of moses will show us this.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

What do you have to say about this, Just Me?

lol. He has me on ignore.

I asked questions he would never answer, and he got sick of me asking them, so he just ignored me

 

[cfultz3]

the (old) mosaic covenant with it's laws and regulations is abolished. do you agree?

It says that the Old Covenant is abolished, seeing that the Christ brought in a New Covenant. But, as to the Law, specifically, the moral Laws of God, has Christ abolished the morals of God? Nay. But, He says that the one who teaches against them are least in the Kingdom from the Heavens. Even the Christian is to walk before God pleasingly, otherwise, who are we to warn against a lascivious gospel? Surely, we have not been liberated to be immoral. Otherwise, God's judgment would not be just. This is quite clear.

it's quite clear. the jews don't like this, and is one reason they reject Christ. it's the same reason certain individuals wrench the scriptures and attempt to keep what is obsolete alive for the forgiven in Christ.

If you are saying that some are saying that we as Christians are to place ourselves under the Old Covenant as a covenant between us and God, then they who do, have Christ to no prevail. But, that does not negate that God is a God of morals and in order for us to walk in faith, we must do so faithfully, not living according to the dictates of the flesh, but according to the dictates of the Spirit who speaks God's Law which are written upon our hearts.

what is the heart of the new covenant? sins forgotten forever, no yearly reminder involving earthly priests and animal blood (covering).

Neither you nor I would teach a lascivious gospel, knowing that such is teaching one to live immorally without penalty. Seeing that Scripture says that one has an appeasing and perpetual sacrifice before God through Christ, are we Christians free to abuse that covering or does it not also say that we are to remain faithful to the One leading until the end? Can we be as a fallen Hebrew and still make it to His Rest, although it was their unhearkening heart which caused them to fall?

Hebrews 8
12 For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more.
13 In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away.

True, He will not record our sins, so as to damn us by such. But, since we Christians are rewarded according to our Spiritual fruits and are not rewarded according to those acts which are burnt by the Fire, then there has to be some remembrance of our deeds in order for us to be or not to be rewarded accordingly. If there is a remembrance, then there also must be some gauge by which He judges. And that gauge is by those moralistic Laws He gave us, those Laws which are satisfied by love.

But, then again, how long can a Christian resist the correction of the Spirit, the testifying of our heart, and our nagging conscious which all say that God's Law must be followed and still think he is being led by the Spirit?

yet you have men and women who love their awful paper tiger mosaic religious postering so much they're trying to say the new covenant is just a better old one.

To this part I agree with you, circumcision (that which we do to enter into a Covenant with God) is now spiritual. If we try to enter a Covenant with God with the flesh, then Christ is no prevail to the fleshly one, seeing that the flesh speaks to the things of the flesh and the Spirit to the things of the spirit. A soul is either lead by its flesh or by its spirit.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

It says that the Old Covenant is abolished, seeing that the Christ brought in a New Covenant. But, as to the Law, specifically, the moral Laws of God, has Christ abolished the morals of God? Nay. But, He says that the one who teaches against them are least in the Kingdom from the Heavens. Even the Christian is to walk before God pleasingly, otherwise, who are we to warn against a lascivious gospel? Surely, we have not been liberated to be immoral. Otherwise, God's judgment would not be just. This is quite clear.

You mean the same moral law Paul speaks of here?

2 Corinthians 3:7 [ Glory of the New Covenant ] But if the ministry of death, written and engraved on stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not look steadily at the face of Moses because of the glory of his countenance, which glory was passing away,

how can the ministry of death written and engraven on stone (the ten commands) pass away if we keep them active? Would they not ocntinually minister deat to everyone who attempts to follow them?

Edit: I am not trying to judge you bro. just having discussion. Don;t take it as a judgment on you.

 

[ivanc0]

So you mean your group does not practice tithing, but voluntary donations.
Gentiles I believe also were not taught to tithe but to donate.
But how you see that in the "eyes of the LAW"
And when you Say Law, What LAW you Referring to?
and what Law your Group does not practice any more?

Originally Posted by JaumeJ

Tithes are paid to the Levitical priesthood, never to an individual. An individual may be in charge of collecting them, but as itstands today, tithes as taught in the Old Testament have little to do with the free-will offerings in today's assemblies in Jesus Christ.

Tithe means the tenth part or 10%. Some tithing was 10% of 10% of profits. That means profits, not the principle.

Thus Peter may have received offerings but tithing, not possible according to the system.


Ivanc0
So you mean your group does not practice tithing, but voluntary donations.
Gentiles I believe also were not taught to tithe but to donate.
But how you see that in the "eyes of the LAW"
And when you Say Law, What LAW you Referring to?
and what Law your Group does not practice any more?

Dear JaumeJ, I am really interested in your answers to this questions.

 

[cfultz3]

Yet Gods commands are found everywhere, not just the law. so why do we want to call it only the law?

I do not know why some call God's Law just 'Law', which automatically causes one to thing of 'Old Covenant'. And I STRONGLY believe that if people would just use adjectives that a lot of disagreement would not even be necessary. We all understand that we are not under the Law as a Covenant, and we all also understand that we are still under God's moral Laws which are eternal as He.

yes which we can not keep right? and the penalty for not keeping it is death right?

You asked this in conjunction to me having said that the Law is God's written moral characteristics and to this I say that as long as we are in the flesh, we are bound to sin. No, we cannot, as humans, be as righteous as the Law of God requires. But by that Law which is also written upon our hearts, we can know God's morality and know that the conviction of the Spirit is to remind us that God's Law is still valid for us Christians.

Yes.

but this is not what Just-me is claiming, she is claiming the literal law of moses will show us this.

I am not fully up-to-date on what Just-Me teaches. I have, however, seen him explain several times how the physical (things of the Old Testament) explains the spiritual (things of the New Testament) and in which case most of us would agree. And If anyone is saying that we are to be under the Old Covenant, so as to be circumcised in order to be in a proper Covenant with God, then it does say that Christ is to no prevail for those who would have Moses leading them. I repeat, we are either led by our flesh or by our spirit through the Spirit. If by the flesh, then only death awaits......

 

[eternally-gratefull]

I do not know why some call God's Law just 'Law', which automatically causes one to thing of 'Old Covenant'. And I STRONGLY believe that if people would just use adjectives that a lot of disagreement would not even be necessary. We all understand that we are not under the Law as a Covenant, and we all also understand that we are still under God's moral Laws which are eternal as He.

I agree.

So if gthese moral guidelines are found outside the law. And Paul says the law is the minsiter of death, Why would we want to put ourself or even follow a law we can not keep. or teach it?

You asked this in conjunction to me having said that the Law is God's written moral characteristics and to this I say that as long as we are in the flesh, we are bound to sin. No, we cannot, as humans, be as righteous as the Law of God requires. But by that Law which is also written upon our hearts, we can know God's morality and know that the conviction of the Spirit is to remind us that God's Law is still valid for us Christians.

Yes, Gods law (ie law of Christ) . Not mosaic law. Which was a temporary covenant, which paul says is fading away

I am not fully up-to-date on what Just-Me teaches. I have, however, seen him explain several times how the physical (things of the Old Testament) explains the spiritual (things of the New Testament) and in which case most of us would agree. And If anyone is saying that we are to be under the Old Covenant, so as to be circumcised in order to be in a proper Covenant with God, then it does say that Christ is to no prevail for those who would have Moses leading them. I repeat, we are either led by our flesh or by our spirit through the Spirit. If by the flesh, then only death awaits......

You have to listen to him for awhile. His true beliefs will come out. It took me awhile to figure him out. He keeps out just enough info so you have to really think hard what he believes.

 

[cfultz3]

You mean the same moral law Paul speaks of here?

2 Corinthians 3:7 [ Glory of the New Covenant ] But if the ministry of death, written and engraved on stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not look steadily at the face of Moses because of the glory of his countenance, which glory was passing away,

how can the ministry of death written and engraven on stone (the ten commands) pass away if we keep them active? Would they not ocntinually minister deat to everyone who attempts to follow them?

Edit: I am not trying to judge you bro. just having discussion. Don;t take it as a judgment on you.

I am not saying that we are to follow Law for our righteousness. But, what I am saying is that God's Law describes the make-up of God. When it says not to steal, it is saying that God's character essentially do not like taking what is not His and He projects that characteristic nature to us through a law (likewise for every moral Law God spoke).

Yes, the Law was purposed to minster death, as for us to be without excuse/defense. But, by that moralistic Law also having been written on our hearts, we know God's will and by the conviction of the Spirit, we know that we are being guided by God's morals.

Without keeping God's morals alive and a part of our faith, then when a spirit does speak to us, we might be misled by its false conviction. But, by the Law having been written on our hearts by HIM, then it is conclusive that it must remain alive, seeing that He took the time to have written them there for us to know His will. (I am only speaking of moral laws..... period...).

Indeed, it ministers death to those who are not convinced that this is what God sees as good or evil, those who are convinced that morality has no part in one's following of Christ, those who think that we have been liberated to be lascivious (immoral, unGODly (a state of not being like God)).

P.S. I am taking it as a discussion between two human brothers who have the same spiritual Brother. That same Brother who is a Mediator of a better Covenant. That same Brother who satisfied the fleshly requirements of the Law and said that if we do and teach those commands (moral descriptions of God's character) that we would be called great in His Kingdom from the Heavens. And I also ask that you do not take my replies as passing judgment, seeing that WE ALL only know in part for know.

 

[just-me]

Originally Posted by eternally-gratefull

you do understand Just me is picking and chosing which law to follow do you not?

You do understand he ignores the fact that once the schoolmaster has led us to Christ, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.

You do understand just me believes if the law is not followed in a certain way, A person can not be saved, or will lose their salvation do you not?

What do you have to say about this, Just Me?

I haven't endorsed any particular laws to follow. I have said "all or nothing" because we live by every word that proceeds out of the mouth of God. I have said many times that it should be the Christians intention to continue to die daily as Paul said He did. If we forget the route to Jesus that the schoolmaster showed us, then we are trying to find Christ by a different avenue than what God has given. The flesh is incapable, and the heart's motive to see the law as spiritual should be our quest to have the Word of God reveal our character, and His character to us by looking into the glass James talked about. Then the law is seen as the "law of liberty." If one claims that as me saying the the law has to be followed a certain way so be it. What I have described, more times than once, is that Christians do not see the law God gave to Moses as something negative. If that is the case, I have made it clear with scripture that the carnal mind cannot be subject to the law. It just can't because it only sees the physical aspects.

Now, concerning what E G is saying about me, I challenge him to quote some posts I have made without any of his expulsions.

For further explainations on how I view the law God gave to Moses see http://christianchat.com/bible-discussion-forum/88139-talking-against-law-dangerous.html post #757

 

[Zinzerio]

Jeremiah 11:14

4"Therefore do not pray for this people, nor lift up a cry or prayer for them; for I will not listen when they call to Me because of their disaster. Here the lord is speaking to the jews in the old tesrtement who know him.
And here the lord is saying you are my people dont listen to the other people.

John 10:14
I am the good shepherd; I know my sheep and my sheep know me.
,
ok here in the new testement the lord is again saying,, people are in fold who know me and they will never come out of his fold

Ok look at thees two scriptures please and see if you can see what i see.

John 10:27 [SUP]27 [/SUP]My sheep listen to my voice; I know them, and they follow me.

john 10:5 [SUP]5 [/SUP]But they will never follow a stranger; in fact, they will run away from him because they do not recognise a stranger’s voice.

I think both these verses are identical to Jeremiah 11:14

 

[cfultz3]

I agree.

So if gthese moral guidelines are found outside the law. And Paul says the law is the minsiter of death, Why would we want to put ourself or even follow a law we can not keep. or teach it?

You, as well as I, would be the first to say that the Law is fulfilled (satisfied, brought to a completion) by LOVE. And, we both would also be the first to say that none can love perfectly (our understanding of 'sin')(I am not assuming what you believe, but what I understand from you). With that in mind and to answer your question, we Christians ought to teach love, seeing that the one who loves is known by God, because love keeps God's moral laws. Love is the spiritual Law from Christ.

Yes, Gods law (ie law of Christ) . Not mosaic law. Which was a temporary covenant, which paul says is fading away

YESSSSS!! The Law of Christ, the spiritual Law which states that God has morals and by following them (by hearkening to the Spirit), we walk pleasingly before God, because we do listen to Him as what is good or evil. And more to the point, that Mosaic Law, which states that we obtain that right standing before God by the deeds of the flesh, is no more. YESSSSSS!!!! The Law from Christ: love and by which, the Law from God is satisfied.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

I am not saying that we are to follow Law for our righteousness. But, what I am saying is that God's Law describes the make-up of God. When it says not to steal, it is saying that God's character essentially do not like taking what is not His and He projects that characteristic nature to us through a law (likewise for every moral Law God spoke).

did you need the law to tell you that, or did you already know that?

Yes, the Law was purposed to minster death, as for us to be without excuse/defense. But, by that moralistic Law also having been written on our hearts, we know God's will and by the conviction of the Spirit, we know that we are being guided by God's morals.

is this the law of Christ, or the law of moses.

Do you see where I am headed, The mosaic law is the ministry of death. The law of Christ (which is NOT the law of moses) is not.

Without keeping God's morals alive and a part of our faith, then when a spirit does speak to us, we might be misled by its false conviction. But, by the Law having been written on our hearts by HIM, then it is conclusive that it must remain alive, seeing that He took the time to have written them there for us to know His will. (I am only speaking of moral laws..... period...).

Again, The law of Christ or moses?

The law of moses condemns, does the law of Christ condemn?

Indeed, it ministers death to those who are not convinced that this is what God sees as good or evil, those who are convinced that morality has no part in one's following of Christ, those who think that we have been liberated to be lascivious (immoral, unGODly (a state of not being like God)).

No one I know thinks beling delivered by this law allows us to be lascivious. They would be ignoring the law of Christ and Love, and have no faith. can one be saved if they have no faith (not to mention. Has the schoolmaster done its job if a person really thinks he can continue to live in sin? would not the same law condemn them for doing this?

P.S. I am taking it as a discussion between two human brothers who have the same spiritual Brother. That same Brother who is a Mediator of a better Covenant. That same Brother who satisfied the fleshly requirements of the Law and said that if we do and teach those commands (moral descriptions of God's character) that we would be called great in His Kingdom from the Heavens. And I also ask that you do not take my replies as passing judgment, seeing that WE ALL only know in part for know.

Amen bro.

I do not see when Jesus say commands as to be talking about the law of moses, the ministry of death But to ALL of his commands, given and confirmed in the NT, or the commands of Christ.

As Jesus confirmed, The law is not even complete.

One can obey the law and still sin.

ie.. commit adultry, If I take it at face value, I can never sleep with another woman and by doing this, I have obeyed the law.

Yet Christ says, if I even look at a woman with lust, I have broken the command..(ie law of Christ)

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Originally Posted by eternally-gratefull

you do understand Just me is picking and chosing which law to follow do you not?

You do understand he ignores the fact that once the schoolmaster has led us to Christ, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.

You do understand just me believes if the law is not followed in a certain way, A person can not be saved, or will lose their salvation do you not?



I haven't endorsed any particular laws to follow. I have said "all or nothing" because we live by every word that proceeds out of the mouth of God. I have said many times that it should be the Christians intention to continue to die daily as Paul said He did. If we forget the route to Jesus that the schoolmaster showed us, then we are trying to find Christ by a different avenue than what God has given. The flesh is incapable, and the heart's motive to see the law as spiritual should be our quest to have the Word of God reveal our character, and His character to us by looking into the glass James talked about. Then the law is seen as the "law of liberty." If one claims that as me saying the the law has to be followed a certain way so be it. What I have described, more times than once, is that Christians do not see the law God gave to Moses as something negative. If that is the case, I have made it clear with scripture that the carnal mind cannot be subject to the law. It just can't because it only sees the physical aspects.

Now, concerning what E G is saying about me, I challenge him to quote some posts I have made without any of his expulsions.

For further explainations on how I view the law God gave to Moses see http://christianchat.com/bible-discussion-forum/88139-talking-against-law-dangerous.html post #757

Better yet. Reed it and yuo will see what I said is true.