Am I wrong!?!

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dcontroversal

Senior Member
Dec 12, 2013
42,070
14,696
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(To all who attack me for voicing my opinion, I'm not responding to you)...

I believe that Christ's blood saves completely, however, I believe you can lose Christ's blood by using it as a license to sin. We must put effort into quitting sin. The bible says to keep what you've obtained so far. I personally have quit smoking, quit hanging with the wrong crowd, quit holding grudges against people, etc. After years of being away from such sins, am I going to go back to them? Of course not, I've grown in Christ, I'm not going to go back to the sinful habits that I'm now free from. I do not believe that my efforts to obtain what I have already accomplished washes away my own sins. But I believe that if I quit my effort not to sin, that God will take from me Christ's blood that washes my sins away...

"But if you sin willfully there no longer remains a sacrifice for your sins."
Guess you're bumming then....all sin is willful................and you contradict yourself regularly......
 

JaumeJ

Senior Member
Jul 2, 2011
16,072
3,003
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Heb 10:26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,
Heb 10:27 But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.

The OSASIANS seem to pick and choose what they believe in the Bible……….

God's mercy is new every day.
 
Dec 28, 2016
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(To all who attack me for voicing my opinion, I'm not responding to you)...
No one attacks you, relax, they attack what you teach.

I believe that Christ's blood saves completely,
No you don't:

The bible says to keep what you've obtained so far.
See? Scripture?

You believe what you have done has something to do with maintaining salvation, because, if one keeps reading, if you "stop doing" you "stop maintaining" your salvation:

I personally have quit smoking, quit hanging with the wrong crowd, quit holding grudges against people, etc. After years of being away from such sins, am I going to go back to them? Of course not, I've grown in Christ, I'm not going to go back to the sinful habits that I'm now free from. I do not believe that my efforts to obtain what I have already accomplished washes away my own sins.



But I believe that if I quit my effort not to sin, that God will take from me Christ's blood that washes my sins away...

"But if you sin willfully there no longer remains a sacrifice for your sins."
Vast misunderstanding on your part and Scripture out of context. Don't take this personal, it's not an attack on you but your false doctrine.
 

Lillywolf

Well-known member
Aug 29, 2018
1,562
533
113
If you died tonight where would you go Heaven or Hell?

I'm wondering if the people that works keep you saved think they will go to Heaven and which works are keeping you saved?

If you cannot obey Him are you saved in the first place?

This is not in a mean spirit... I strongly believe once saved always saved.... These are my strong objections to losing "your" salvation... Am I wrong!?!
No, you're not wrong. Not that you'll not be told you are here.
God tells us we were saved in Christ before the world began. That means before the garden. God foreknew those who would be saved. And God told us to love our neighbor as ourselves. If we are to love ourselves as that one which carries God's holy spirit within us, and the HS guides us into all truth from that temple place within, and we are to love our neighbor from that place, it is then telling us, Jesus command, that the Father too promotes that neighbors blessing, their good, when his daughters and sons are told to love them too.

God
Is
Love

Hell
Is
Not

Hell has an origin in arriving in scripture. Soteriology, Bibliology, Apologetics. All studies show this in those areas of interest to the serious Bible student. A history. A coming into the writings of scripture after Jesus returned to the Father.
God always referred to the grave, the abyss, where the dead would go. Man made Hell. And then they brought it to earth, burning "heretics", which any one of us here likely has been called, and as Protestants, most certainly are in terms of the first "corporate" church, the RCC.
Burn people at the stake, or on a wagon wheel as they're tied spread eagle and covered with pitch, and what has been attributed to slavery of late, the generational PTSD, will carry forth among those later generations on either side. The side that burned people, RCC. And the side that were hunted , Protestants.

Heck of a conversion tool huh? Convert! Or burn.
God is Love.
Hell is not.
Man is not love.
Man made Hell.
God did not.

When Hell teaching has a history, an actual century date of coming into the writings of scripture, and the earlier inspired God's breath scriptures that survived for centuries do not......

No! You are not wrong.
 

Lillywolf

Well-known member
Aug 29, 2018
1,562
533
113
Some even handle deadly snakes.
Yes, they do. And every now and then the snake wins. Because the handler forgot that one all important scripture. "God is not mocked......A man reaps what he sows." Galatians 6:7

Being ordained used to be a privilege. But for many today, it's a license to berate anyone who questions them. Now this is not towards anyone on this website.
Not that it couldn't be. :) As there are those who claim to be and yet speak and prove otherwise.
 

ljs

Member
Jan 13, 2018
300
431
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Still, no Disciple or the Council led by Jesus' brother James, actually followed the message of what Paul taught. They continued in every way to follow what Christ taught. Even Jude, the other brother of Christ follows Jesus just like the Book of James follows Christ.

The only one not following Christ's message was Paul. Work out your salvation with fear and trembling is a long ways away from Paul's Grace message.

So let's do this:
YOU follow Paul, and I will choose to follow what God in person taught :)
You do realize that Jesus was born a Jew , under the law and taught law dont you ?

Christ himself commissioned Paul , and gave him revelations for us gentiles , he is the apostle to the gentiles for us in this age of GRACE !!!!

If you reject
Paul's teaching , your rejecting Jesus's own words , he gave them to Paul for us !

Do you know anything about the dispensations ?
 

marinerscatch

Active member
Nov 23, 2018
114
31
28
You do realize that Jesus was born a Jew , under the law and taught law dont you ?

Christ himself commissioned Paul , and gave him revelations for us gentiles , he is the apostle to the gentiles for us in this age of GRACE !!!!

If you reject
Paul's teaching , your rejecting Jesus's own words , he gave them to Paul for us !

Do you know anything about the dispensations ?



Jesus commanded His Disciples to go into (all nations) and preach the Gospel.

First of all, (all nations) represents the Gentiles.
Secondly, the Gospel is about Yeshua and His commands (work out your salvation with fear and trembling and go and sin no more + as Yeshua stated several times : I am here to bring the Mercy of God, not (grace) for your souls).

It might do you some actual good to understand the finite specifics of what Yeshua commanded His own Disciples before jumping on the Paul bandwagon.

Obviously before there ever was a Paul, Yeshua already had His Disciples in line to cover us Gentiles :)
 

pottersclay

Senior Member
Aug 13, 2015
3,556
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What happens if you misuse a gift God has given you?????
 

JaumeJ

Senior Member
Jul 2, 2011
16,072
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It seems it could be taken away……….
 
Nov 26, 2018
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8
If you died tonight where would you go Heaven or Hell?

I'm wondering if the people that works keep you saved think they will go to Heaven and which works are keeping you saved?

If you cannot obey Him are you saved in the first place?

This is not in a mean spirit... I strongly believe once saved always saved.... These are my strong objections to losing "your" salvation... Am I wrong!?!
 
Nov 26, 2018
63
23
8
If you died tonight where would you go Heaven or Hell?

I'm wondering if the people that works keep you saved think they will go to Heaven and which works are keeping you saved?

If you cannot obey Him are you saved in the first place?

This is not in a mean spirit... I strongly believe once saved always saved.... These are my strong objections to losing "your" salvation... Am I wrong!?!
God of the Bible is for the living. Let the dead bury the dead. We as finite mortals focus on things that are not eternal. Christ was clear to repent for the kingdom of heaven is at hand. Other than Christ saying that he goes to prepare a place with many rooms for us I do not see anything about life after death. Or we use the times Christ calls children to him and likens them to the kingdom of heaven. Just me thinking that youth and or child like faith totally contradicts anything to do with our death.
 

Hevosmies

Well-known member
Sep 8, 2018
3,192
2,353
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Guess you're bumming then....all sin is willful................and you contradict yourself regularly......
Lev 4:13 And if the whole congregation of Israel sin through ignorance, and the thing be hid from the eyes of the assembly, and they have done somewhat against any of the commandments of the LORD concerning things which should not be done, and are guilty;

People are still guilty, yes. Ignorance is no excuse. But there is such a thing as sinning without doing it intentionally. Many times its brought up in Leviticus, check it out
 

Nehemiah6

Senior Member
Jul 18, 2017
9,409
3,097
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I find it "odd" no one who believes they can lose their salvation has not responded to such a simple question!!!!
That's because it is a riddle wrapped in a mystery inside an enigma.:cool:
 

BenFTW

Senior Member
Oct 7, 2012
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I honestly do appreciate your concern, and I sincerely thank you for trying to give me fair warning. That is a true example of a brother in Christ trying to help his brother. But what I am specifically discussing here has no relationship to claiming Paul was against Christ, or that Paul and the Disciples and Council were working against one another. I am solely speaking about doctrine here and how Paul defines the Gospel of Christ which is a different flavor than what the Disciples and the Council defined the Gospel of Christ. And it doesn't take someone with a biblical phd to see there is a concise and obvious difference.

For one, the Disciples and James/Jude (brothers of Christ) who James led the Council, had first hand experience with Yeshua. They all lived in the same household at different intervals throughout Christ's entire life on earth as Yeshua. They saw first hand the actual workings of God Himself. And the greatest of all experiences, they watched Yeshua die and then return alive as He had promised them. Yeshua made an impact on them that Paul and us believers never felt or experienced. Paul obviously as Saul was killing those who were converting to Yeshua, well after the fact that Yeshua was already here and now gone back to take his rightful place. The Disciples and the Council's top leaders literally had one of those rare special events that shakes your life upside down, to the point they were sold out for Christ, that goes miles in meaning beyond what Webster's can even define as being sold out.

Paul was doing amazing things that deserved to be recognized, no doubt!! But what Paul was doing still never impacted the Disciples and the Council like Yeshua had impacted them. After all, Paul was only a convert. Yeshua was literally God who ate, drank, slept with these men and then defiled reason by dying and resurrecting. That is an example no one else can or could ever duplicate. These men had a one time life experience no one else will ever get on this side of heaven. They knew that they knew that they knew what was what!! And everything after that was repeating each command of Christ word for word with no substitutes or add on's allowed. They had their "treasure map." The lamp was fully lit upon the path Yeshua had created for them.

So there was an obvious difference between giving Paul high fives and patting him on the back, compared to what they were already sold out to, due to Christ. And that is because "nothing could ever compare" to Christ ever.

Bottom line is simple here. I am not "saved" because what Paul claimed to be Grace. I am saved only because of what Yeshua claimed to be Mercy on multiple occasions, as I had listed some verses giving a reference to!! And, I can only be saved because of Yeshua period!! And as God in human form, He commanded that I "work out my salvation with fear and trembling and that I go and sin no more." He had Mercy upon me, and still continues to have Mercy upon me. I mean, these were His (God's) literal and factual words instructing how I can remain saved and guaranteed to be with Him in Paradise!!

He gave me a guarantee. So, I do not need someone else trying to define that Guarantee, given to me by God Himself!! Like I had posted on a previous post. when I read the literal words of Yeshua, it's a legal document from the "courtroom" of Heaven, written in His own blood, and sealed by His promise and vow, to which He can "never" default upon. I have my guarantee, Brother!! I do not need anything else. I got it straight from the lips of the man we know as "I AM!!"

And with such a guarantee from I AM, I will do specifically as He commanded me to do, and nothing else!! Because the most important thing by me obeying God is, I cannot fail!! I am GUARANTEED!!
Consider that His mercy endures due to His priesthood and sacrifice. He intercedes on your behalf, being your Advocate with the Father. One sacrifice for all sin. Not like the priests of old, doing daily sacrifices for daily sin, but once did He sacrifice Himself (as the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world). For if His blood were like the blood of bulls and goats, Christ would've suffered since the foundation of the world (being the sacrifice for sin).

What I am trying to express here and may God give you understanding (because the Lord leads us into all truth) is that you are forgiven. Your sins have experienced remission through the shed blood of Christ. The mercy you speak of is not as if the Lord is in consideration of whether to forgive you or not. You are forgiven in Christ Jesus. This is a covenant reality, a covenant where He says He has written His laws on our hearts and remembers our sins no more.

These truths are found in the book of Hebrews.

You say that Jesus said to work out your salvation with fear and trembling, but I wish to remind you that Paul said this.

Philippians 2:12-13 King James Version (KJV)
12 Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.
13 For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.

What does it mean to "work out your own salvation with fear and trembling"? And why does verse 13 say "for it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure" in reference to verse 12? It is God doing the work in you to do of His good pleasure, so what does fear and trembling have to do with this? Well, let me show you another scripture using "fear and trembling" so that you may discern its meaning.

1 Corinthians 2:1-5 King James Version (KJV)
2 And I, brethren, when I came to you, came not with excellency of speech or of wisdom, declaring unto you the testimony of God.
2 For I determined not to know any thing among you, save Jesus Christ, and him crucified.
3 And I was with you in weakness, and in fear, and in much trembling.
4 And my speech and my preaching was not with enticing words of man's wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power:
5 That your faith should not stand in the wisdom of men, but in the power of God.

Notice that Paul was putting emphasis not on his own ability (such as speech, man's wisdom, enticing words, etc) but on the demonstration of the Spirit and of power. The fear and trembling was a distrust in his own abilities and a reliance on the Lord. Now, let me show you the Greek (if thats okay?).

https://biblehub.com/greek/5156.htm

Thayer's Greek Lexicon
STRONGS NT 5156: τρόμος

τρόμος, τριχοῦ, ὁ (τρέμω), from Homer down, a trembling, quaking with fear: Mark 16:8; μετάφοβοῦ καί τρόμου, with fear and trembling, used to describe the anxiety of one who distrusts his ability completely to meet all requirements, but religiously does his utmost to fulfil his duty, 2 Corinthians 7:15; Ephesians 6:5; Philippians 2:12; ἐν φόβῳ καί ἐν τρόμῳ (Isaiah 19:16), 1 Corinthians 2:3 (φόβος and τρόμος are joined in Genesis 9:2; Exodus 15:16; Deut. (); , etc.; ἐνφόβῳ ... ἐν τρόμῳ, Psalm 2:11). (Synonym: cf. φοβέω, at the end.)

Another scriptural example...

Ephesians 6:5 King James Version (KJV)
5 Servants, be obedient to them that are your masters according to the flesh, with fear and trembling, in singleness of your heart, as unto Christ;

The emphasis is that while we do our best, it is God who works in us. This isn't a verse (Philippians 2:12-13) filled with condemnation (or a fear tactic), rather it is teaching us to rely on God who works in us. Who is the Author and Finisher of our faith? It is the Lord. We understand that we fall short of God's glory, and for this reason we are dependent on Christ.

This verse isn't mean to incite fear, but confidence in God. Praise God that He works out in us to do His will and the things that please Him. He has equipped us and leads us as we are saved unto good works.

I hope this has helped, in some manner.
 

GraceAndTruth

Junior Member
Sep 28, 2015
1,108
314
83
<<-------SAVED. Saved from what? From the penalty of sin. Sin Debt paid in full for me by Christ at the CROSS.
AT the cross all my sins were in the future, yet those sins were paid for when Christ paid the debt for all the sins of His people.
 
U

UnderGrace

Guest
Christ's blood saves completely
you can lose Christ's blood by using it as a license to sin
Can you not see the contradiction here?

Wouldn't you rather believe Gospel of the New Convenant and have the absolute peace of knowing you are saved eternally?

Christ Jesus would not have suffered the cross if His blood was something that could be lost, that makes no sense.
 

BenFTW

Senior Member
Oct 7, 2012
4,408
584
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Can you not see the contradiction here?

Wouldn't you rather believe Gospel of the New Convenant and have the absolute peace of knowing you are saved eternally?

Christ Jesus would not have suffered the cross if His blood was something that could be lost, that makes no sense.
Christ's blood is not common (like the blood of bulls and goats), otherwise He would've had to suffer since the foundation of the world (Hebrews 9:26). This means that unlike the blood of such animals that couldn't take away sin, Christ's blood takes away sin. His blood has granted our sins remission. Where remission of these is, there is no more offering for sin.

What is fascinating to me, is Jesus' role as our High Priest. Other high priests made yearly and even daily sacrifices for the sins of the people (including themselves) but Jesus as the High Priest only did one sacrifice for sin (our sins) and then sat on the Father's right hand. He doesn't keep sacrificing for the sins of the people, it is an eternally sufficient sacrifice.

Consider how the lost are saved today. Through the blood of Jesus that cleanses them of all unrighteousness. The same blood shed so long ago. So if the lost's sins are dealt with by the blood of Jesus granting them remission, what of our sins? The same blood.

This is why scripture so plainly states that we are forgiven. To even forgive as God for Christ's sake has forgiven us.
 

marinerscatch

Active member
Nov 23, 2018
114
31
28
Consider that His mercy endures due to His priesthood and sacrifice. He intercedes on your behalf, being your Advocate with the Father. One sacrifice for all sin. Not like the priests of old, doing daily sacrifices for daily sin, but once did He sacrifice Himself (as the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world). For if His blood were like the blood of bulls and goats, Christ would've suffered since the foundation of the world (being the sacrifice for sin).

What I am trying to express here and may God give you understanding (because the Lord leads us into all truth) is that you are forgiven. Your sins have experienced remission through the shed blood of Christ. The mercy you speak of is not as if the Lord is in consideration of whether to forgive you or not. You are forgiven in Christ Jesus. This is a covenant reality, a covenant where He says He has written His laws on our hearts and remembers our sins no more.

These truths are found in the book of Hebrews.

You say that Jesus said to work out your salvation with fear and trembling, but I wish to remind you that Paul said this.

Philippians 2:12-13 King James Version (KJV)
12 Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.
13 For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.

What does it mean to "work out your own salvation with fear and trembling"? And why does verse 13 say "for it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure" in reference to verse 12? It is God doing the work in you to do of His good pleasure, so what does fear and trembling have to do with this? Well, let me show you another scripture using "fear and trembling" so that you may discern its meaning.

1 Corinthians 2:1-5 King James Version (KJV)
2 And I, brethren, when I came to you, came not with excellency of speech or of wisdom, declaring unto you the testimony of God.
2 For I determined not to know any thing among you, save Jesus Christ, and him crucified.
3 And I was with you in weakness, and in fear, and in much trembling.
4 And my speech and my preaching was not with enticing words of man's wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power:
5 That your faith should not stand in the wisdom of men, but in the power of God.

Notice that Paul was putting emphasis not on his own ability (such as speech, man's wisdom, enticing words, etc) but on the demonstration of the Spirit and of power. The fear and trembling was a distrust in his own abilities and a reliance on the Lord. Now, let me show you the Greek (if thats okay?).

https://biblehub.com/greek/5156.htm

Thayer's Greek Lexicon
STRONGS NT 5156: τρόμος

τρόμος, τριχοῦ, ὁ (τρέμω), from Homer down, a trembling, quaking with fear: Mark 16:8; μετάφοβοῦ καί τρόμου, with fear and trembling, used to describe the anxiety of one who distrusts his ability completely to meet all requirements, but religiously does his utmost to fulfil his duty, 2 Corinthians 7:15; Ephesians 6:5; Philippians 2:12; ἐν φόβῳ καί ἐν τρόμῳ (Isaiah 19:16), 1 Corinthians 2:3 (φόβος and τρόμος are joined in Genesis 9:2; Exodus 15:16; Deut. (); , etc.; ἐνφόβῳ ... ἐν τρόμῳ, Psalm 2:11). (Synonym: cf. φοβέω, at the end.)

Another scriptural example...

Ephesians 6:5 King James Version (KJV)
5 Servants, be obedient to them that are your masters according to the flesh, with fear and trembling, in singleness of your heart, as unto Christ;

The emphasis is that while we do our best, it is God who works in us. This isn't a verse (Philippians 2:12-13) filled with condemnation (or a fear tactic), rather it is teaching us to rely on God who works in us. Who is the Author and Finisher of our faith? It is the Lord. We understand that we fall short of God's glory, and for this reason we are dependent on Christ.

This verse isn't mean to incite fear, but confidence in God. Praise God that He works out in us to do His will and the things that please Him. He has equipped us and leads us as we are saved unto good works.

I hope this has helped, in some manner.






Don't get me wrong about Paul. I firmly believe in how he breaks down our spiritual battle so we understand our common enemy is not standing before us, but as invisible entities trying to cause confusion, thwart our prayer life, and attacking us in ways cannot see until we see the effects of it.

I love how he breaks down the armor of God we are to apply in order to do more for God.

How he explains the fruit of the Holy Spirit and the gifts.

His life and trials are amazing examples of how to walk in God and overcome adversity.

His love for the churches he planted by keeping in touch is the perfect example of what a good shepherd does.

His boldness is inspiration.

His suffering reveals his ultimate love for God and those he has led to God.

His knowledge of the Torah is second to none.

How he conveys his failures and humanity makes him the perfect example of what a true Christian should strive for.

He basically is the Webster's dictionary of the Bible and especially the New Testament.

My own walk in God has been blessed by the example I have of Paul.

But in that same frame of mind, my own walk in God has never achieved more than the example I have from God (Yeshua).

Paul has enlightened me, but Yeshua has saved me.
Paul gives me depth in my walk, but Yeshua gives me eternal life.
Paul provides suggestions for all we face, but Yeshua provides the specifics that guarantees me salvation.
Paul gives a closer insight to the commands Yeshua instructs us to follow.
Paul laid his life down as Yeshua taught us to also do. And of course, Yeshua paid the ultimate price by laying His own life down.

No doubt Paul has much to offer.
There is no argument from me over that.

But for me and my own salvation, no one in my opinion explains it better than Yeshua. He keeps it direct, simple and to the point. There is just an awesomeness of knowing this is literally God instructing me how to be with Him forever. It's so simple, because all I have to do is just follow His commands and I am 100% guaranteed to win. And just knowing this is God, makes me understand how much He actually loves me. He knew that He would be the ultimate example of how we should be, what actually matters, and He did it by offering only what He (God) could offer, a "Guarantee." There is such a comfort in knowing that all I have to do is just obey Yeshua and I win. He is the source to everything in life. It only makes absolute sense to focus upon what God in the flesh tells me what to do. He is my biggest fan and supporter wanting me to succeed. I was on His mind while He suffered upon the Cross. This is all about being up close and personal. The Disciples nor Paul had no idea who I am. But the man from Nazareth claiming to be the great one and only I AM, knew me before He ever chose to lay the foundations of creation. He loved me so much, He came to the earth He created and dwelt among His own creation so that He could have Mercy upon us. After showing me just how much I meant to Him, why would I not follow His command? He more than proved by dying for me, that all He instructed me to do was the best choice of action to follow. And like He said, His yoke is easy. Just look at how simple His commands are that GUARANTEES me salvation and eternal life.

1. Just believe upon Him and who He is
2. Work out my salvation with fear and trembling
3. Love my neighbor like myself
4. Go and sin no more
5. Keep the faith

That is a recipe for an absolute Guaranteed eternal salvation. How can anyone ask for anything else?

1. Yeshua is God who loved me and had Mercy upon me
2. He gave me the simplest instructions with an absolute Guarantee if I follow them
3. And His commands are just that easy to do.

In my opinion, I have it all and everything I could ever want by just following what Yeshua (God) told me to do!!
That is enough for me..
 

memyselfi

Junior Member
Jan 12, 2017
503
260
63
There are enough transition passages that suggest there is the possibility they were saved for we have it within the will granted us by God to oppose the Holy Spirit.
Do you realize that is NOT an answer?

You are saying only G-d knows… which He does.... but we do not …. so you do not know.... which is ok.... but I find this a lot from people who do not believe in internal security....

But you are saying by not taking a stance.... G-d is Severin He chooses who gets into heaven... There for Calvinism is not defended. …. Big hug and KISS IN THE LORD!!!!