Am I wrong!?!

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dcontroversal

Senior Member
Dec 12, 2013
42,087
14,710
113
If you died tonight where would you go Heaven or Hell?

I'm wondering if the people that works keep you saved think they will go to Heaven and which works are keeping you saved?

If you cannot obey Him are you saved in the first place?

This is not in a mean spirit... I strongly believe once saved always saved.... These are my strong objections to losing "your" salvation... Am I wrong!?!
There is not one ounce of genuine hope in a works/law keeping based salvation because of the following truths...

a. Any good works MUST be according to the word of GOD and Jesus said NONE are GOOD but GOD

b. Any one that believes in a law keeping salvation must have kept every law, 24/7/365 their whole life...none except JESUS has done this or will do this.

c. Paul was clear....FAITH or WORKS....not both, one or the other...

d. MANY believe they know the LORD and believe their right to enter the kingdom is based upon the good works they have done. JESUS states clearly that he never knew them which goes to the root of the gospel they placed their trust in...and it seems evident that faith plus works is what they believed.

e. Faith plus works to gain, keep, finish, top off, embellish and or complete salvation is a false gospel according to Galatians
 

BenFTW

Senior Member
Oct 7, 2012
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replace Paul with Moses, Elijah, King David, and we will wonder why are we persecuting Paul

and
how is all this any different than giving a child an ultimatum: mom or dad, who should you obey? you are not allowed to pick both
They do not accept the teachings of the Bible, and cherry pick what they find as comfortable. I know that sounds blunt but for them to dismiss the apostle Paul as if his epistles were not scripture, God's word, they might as well just keep chopping away at His word (until nothing is left) because once you start disbelieving one part, all becomes void. Truth is objective, and the Bible's message is consistent.

That they cannot reconcile the words of Christ and that which the Lord has spoken through the apostle Paul, is not reason for them to disregard much of the Bible due to their ignorance. I say this not pompously or being wise in my own understanding. I say this respectfully and in defense of the truth.
 

marinerscatch

Active member
Nov 23, 2018
114
31
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replace Paul with Moses, Elijah, King David, and we will wonder why are we persecuting Paul

and
how is all this any different than giving a child an ultimatum: mom or dad, who should you obey? you are not allowed to pick both



You can make any attempt to reason with me concerning this matter, but I am using the best logic there is. I have a Bible that from the word go to the end is full of great examples to learn from. But ultimately, when you have the literal words of God in the flesh to explain it, no one else can compete with that. And the fact you OSASers are butt hurt over the fact I would rather listen to GOD than man, is rather alarming. Whose word is more important between all the people of the Bible verse God in human form? All of those people needed God, God did not need any of those people. I have the best source like drinking water from the tap. I have God Himself explaining how I should live. When I have that luxury of God's direction, why would I care what what Paul, Moses, Abraham, the prophets think. It's like choosing your pastor's opinion over what God said. And I choose what God said. How what God said became not good enough for you is beyond all logic and reasoning. My salvation is based solely on what Jesus promised, not what Paul defined. And clearly I am not alone, the Disciples and the Council led by James also did not follow Paul's example, they followed Jesus. And that is excellent proof WHOSE INSTRUCTIONS actually matter, God's!!
 

JaumeJ

Senior Member
Jul 2, 2011
16,073
3,004
113
replace Paul with Moses, Elijah, King David, and we will wonder why are we persecuting Paul

and
how is all this any different than giving a child an ultimatum: mom or dad, who should you obey? you are not allowed to pick both
Mom or Dad argument is flawed since we are dealing with Spiritual truth...Hear Jesus on this.
 

BenFTW

Senior Member
Oct 7, 2012
4,408
584
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You can make any attempt to reason with me concerning this matter, but I am using the best logic there is. I have a Bible that from the word go to the end is full of great examples to learn from. But ultimately, when you have the literal words of God in the flesh to explain it, no one else can compete with that. And the fact you OSASers are butt hurt over the fact I would rather listen to GOD than man, is rather alarming. Whose word is more important between all the people of the Bible verse God in human form? All of those people needed God, God did not need any of those people. I have the best source like drinking water from the tap. I have God Himself explaining how I should live. When I have that luxury of God's direction, why would I care what what Paul, Moses, Abraham, the prophets think. It's like choosing your pastor's opinion over what God said. And I choose what God said. How what God said became not good enough for you is beyond all logic and reasoning. My salvation is based solely on what Jesus promised, not what Paul defined. And clearly I am not alone, the Disciples and the Council led by James also did not follow Paul's example, they followed Jesus. And that is excellent proof WHOSE INSTRUCTIONS actually matter, God's!!
You want to see what the disciples and the council decided (and thought of Paul)? You keep trying to pit the apostle Paul against them, yet they called Paul "beloved" (Acts 15:25). They knew that Paul and Barnabas "hazarded their lives for the name of our Lord Jesus Christ" (Acts 15:26).

You keep saying that Paul and Jesus are in opposition, that Paul and the council (including disciples) are in disagreement but let us hear God's word.

Acts 15:22-23 King James Version (KJV)
22 Then pleased it the apostles and elders with the whole church, to send chosen men of their own company to Antioch with Paul and Barnabas; namely, Judas surnamed Barsabas and Silas, chief men among the brethren:
23 And they wrote letters by them after this manner; The apostles and elders and brethren send greeting unto the brethren which are of the Gentiles in Antioch and Syria and Cilicia.

If they were in disagreement, why would Paul be beloved and why would the apostles send "chief men among the brethren" with them? They accepted the Gospel as Paul presented it. Read Acts 15, even 14. The Gentiles (some of whom were converted through Barnabas's and Paul's preaching) were considered brethren, sincere converts. If Paul's Gospel is contrary to the disciples, apostles and council, how could they possibly consider the gentiles converted through their ministry as fellow believers?

This idea you have presented is patently false. The grace message you so oppose is a message even one of the original twelve endorsed.

Acts 15:7-11 King James Version (KJV)
7 And when there had been much disputing, Peter rose up, and said unto them, Men and brethren, ye know how that a good while ago God made choice among us, that the Gentiles by my mouth should hear the word of the gospel, and believe.
8 And God, which knoweth the hearts, bare them witness, giving them the Holy Ghost, even as he did unto us;
9 And put no difference between us and them, purifying their hearts by faith.
10 Now therefore why tempt ye God, to put a yoke upon the neck of the disciples, which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear?
11 But we believe that through the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ we shall be saved, even as they.

Peter defended Paul and Barnabas, the conversion of the Gentiles (through their preaching, and their stance on legalism), and even stated that through the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ "we shall be saved."

You ought to repent of this silliness that you have proposed, maligning one of the Lord's servants and the truth itself.
 

OneFaith

Senior Member
Sep 5, 2016
2,203
345
83
If you died tonight where would you go Heaven or Hell?

I'm wondering if the people that works keep you saved think they will go to Heaven and which works are keeping you saved?

If you cannot obey Him are you saved in the first place?

This is not in a mean spirit... I strongly believe once saved always saved.... These are my strong objections to losing "your" salvation... Am I wrong!?!
(To all who attack me for voicing my opinion, I'm not responding to you)...

I believe that Christ's blood saves completely, however, I believe you can lose Christ's blood by using it as a license to sin. We must put effort into quitting sin. The bible says to keep what you've obtained so far. I personally have quit smoking, quit hanging with the wrong crowd, quit holding grudges against people, etc. After years of being away from such sins, am I going to go back to them? Of course not, I've grown in Christ, I'm not going to go back to the sinful habits that I'm now free from. I do not believe that my efforts to obtain what I have already accomplished washes away my own sins. But I believe that if I quit my effort not to sin, that God will take from me Christ's blood that washes my sins away...

"But if you sin willfully there no longer remains a sacrifice for your sins."
 

marinerscatch

Active member
Nov 23, 2018
114
31
28
You want to see what the disciples and the council decided (and thought of Paul)? You keep trying to pit the apostle Paul against them, yet they called Paul "beloved" (Acts 15:25). They knew that Paul and Barnabas "hazarded their lives for the name of our Lord Jesus Christ" (Acts 15:26).

You keep saying that Paul and Jesus are in opposition, that Paul and the council (including disciples) are in disagreement but let us hear God's word.

Acts 15:22-23 King James Version (KJV)
22 Then pleased it the apostles and elders with the whole church, to send chosen men of their own company to Antioch with Paul and Barnabas; namely, Judas surnamed Barsabas and Silas, chief men among the brethren:
23 And they wrote letters by them after this manner; The apostles and elders and brethren send greeting unto the brethren which are of the Gentiles in Antioch and Syria and Cilicia.

If they were in disagreement, why would Paul be beloved and why would the apostles send "chief men among the brethren" with them? They accepted the Gospel as Paul presented it. Read Acts 15, even 14. The Gentiles (some of whom were converted through Barnabas's and Paul's preaching) were considered brethren, sincere converts. If Paul's Gospel is contrary to the disciples, apostles and council, how could they possibly consider the gentiles converted through their ministry as fellow believers?

This idea you have presented is patently false. The grace message you so oppose is a message even one of the original twelve endorsed.

Acts 15:7-11 King James Version (KJV)
7 And when there had been much disputing, Peter rose up, and said unto them, Men and brethren, ye know how that a good while ago God made choice among us, that the Gentiles by my mouth should hear the word of the gospel, and believe.
8 And God, which knoweth the hearts, bare them witness, giving them the Holy Ghost, even as he did unto us;
9 And put no difference between us and them, purifying their hearts by faith.
10 Now therefore why tempt ye God, to put a yoke upon the neck of the disciples, which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear?
11 But we believe that through the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ we shall be saved, even as they.

Peter defended Paul and Barnabas, the conversion of the Gentiles (through their preaching, and their stance on legalism), and even stated that through the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ "we shall be saved."

You ought to repent of this silliness that you have proposed, maligning one of the Lord's servants and the truth itself.



I honestly do appreciate your concern, and I sincerely thank you for trying to give me fair warning. That is a true example of a brother in Christ trying to help his brother. But what I am specifically discussing here has no relationship to claiming Paul was against Christ, or that Paul and the Disciples and Council were working against one another. I am solely speaking about doctrine here and how Paul defines the Gospel of Christ which is a different flavor than what the Disciples and the Council defined the Gospel of Christ. And it doesn't take someone with a biblical phd to see there is a concise and obvious difference.

For one, the Disciples and James/Jude (brothers of Christ) who James led the Council, had first hand experience with Yeshua. They all lived in the same household at different intervals throughout Christ's entire life on earth as Yeshua. They saw first hand the actual workings of God Himself. And the greatest of all experiences, they watched Yeshua die and then return alive as He had promised them. Yeshua made an impact on them that Paul and us believers never felt or experienced. Paul obviously as Saul was killing those who were converting to Yeshua, well after the fact that Yeshua was already here and now gone back to take his rightful place. The Disciples and the Council's top leaders literally had one of those rare special events that shakes your life upside down, to the point they were sold out for Christ, that goes miles in meaning beyond what Webster's can even define as being sold out.

Paul was doing amazing things that deserved to be recognized, no doubt!! But what Paul was doing still never impacted the Disciples and the Council like Yeshua had impacted them. After all, Paul was only a convert. Yeshua was literally God who ate, drank, slept with these men and then defiled reason by dying and resurrecting. That is an example no one else can or could ever duplicate. These men had a one time life experience no one else will ever get on this side of heaven. They knew that they knew that they knew what was what!! And everything after that was repeating each command of Christ word for word with no substitutes or add on's allowed. They had their "treasure map." The lamp was fully lit upon the path Yeshua had created for them.

So there was an obvious difference between giving Paul high fives and patting him on the back, compared to what they were already sold out to, due to Christ. And that is because "nothing could ever compare" to Christ ever.

Bottom line is simple here. I am not "saved" because what Paul claimed to be Grace. I am saved only because of what Yeshua claimed to be Mercy on multiple occasions, as I had listed some verses giving a reference to!! And, I can only be saved because of Yeshua period!! And as God in human form, He commanded that I "work out my salvation with fear and trembling and that I go and sin no more." He had Mercy upon me, and still continues to have Mercy upon me. I mean, these were His (God's) literal and factual words instructing how I can remain saved and guaranteed to be with Him in Paradise!!

He gave me a guarantee. So, I do not need someone else trying to define that Guarantee, given to me by God Himself!! Like I had posted on a previous post. when I read the literal words of Yeshua, it's a legal document from the "courtroom" of Heaven, written in His own blood, and sealed by His promise and vow, to which He can "never" default upon. I have my guarantee, Brother!! I do not need anything else. I got it straight from the lips of the man we know as "I AM!!"

And with such a guarantee from I AM, I will do specifically as He commanded me to do, and nothing else!! Because the most important thing by me obeying God is, I cannot fail!! I am GUARANTEED!!
 

JaumeJ

Senior Member
Jul 2, 2011
16,073
3,004
113
You can make any attempt to reason with me concerning this matter, but I am using the best logic there is. I have a Bible that from the word go to the end is full of great examples to learn from. But ultimately, when you have the literal words of God in the flesh to explain it, no one else can compete with that. And the fact you OSASers are butt hurt over the fact I would rather listen to GOD than man, is rather alarming. Whose word is more important between all the people of the Bible verse God in human form? All of those people needed God, God did not need any of those people. I have the best source like drinking water from the tap. I have God Himself explaining how I should live. When I have that luxury of God's direction, why would I care what what Paul, Moses, Abraham, the prophets think. It's like choosing your pastor's opinion over what God said. And I choose what God said. How what God said became not good enough for you is beyond all logic and reasoning. My salvation is based solely on what Jesus promised, not what Paul defined. And clearly I am not alone, the Disciples and the Council led by James also did not follow Paul's example, they followed Jesus. And that is excellent proof WHOSE INSTRUCTIONS actually matter, God's!!
Abraham believed God and this was imputed to him as righteousness.

Jesus is God, I believe Him, therefore if I believe the Gospel from Him, why are you insisting we receive it from Paul? It is certain Paul does not mind if we receive the Gospel directly from Jesus, after all this is believeing God. Do you believe Jesus?
 
Dec 28, 2016
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You have posted what you strongly believe yet the Bible tells us if we say we have faith and there are no works to demonstrate it, we have no faith at all
Yet the OP never said one thing contrary to that.
 
Dec 28, 2016
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say hypothetically, someone repented,

as long as that someone repented once, are they always repented?
Not necessarily, yet some teach that a one time emotional event of casting a vote gets them into heaven.

Repentance is the lifestyle of those truly converted.
 
Dec 28, 2016
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The tone of your question is inquisitoriaql at best.

Would you have me reject the teaching directly from God in favor of Paul only?

I read Paul's letters almost daily, but when I want solid answeres I rely only on Jesus because Paul can confuse a glass of water…...tell me how you understand all of his letters because they contradict each other over and over, thus I go to the Rock.
How is it when people disagree with your errors they're on an inquisition? That's not getting old, it already is old.

By the way, the Rock penned Paul's Scriptures. Enough of this faux super-spiritual "red letter christian" nonsense.
 

Hevosmies

Well-known member
Sep 8, 2018
3,192
2,353
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Not necessarily, yet some teach that a one time emotional event of casting a vote gets them into heaven.

Repentance is the lifestyle of those truly converted.
Casting a vote? Do preachers actually say that? Oy vey!
 
Dec 28, 2016
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You are making it seem as if Jesus and Paul are on opposing sides. I reject your false dichotomy, your false dilemma. They are on the same side, and the truth they speak is from God. The contradictions you see is you not rightly dividing God's word, understanding the covenant of which you are now under.
Once in a while you get it right, especially when your answers are shorter. ;)
 
Dec 28, 2016
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Casting a vote? Do preachers actually say that? Oy vey!
Yes, they do.

Adrian Rogers was famous for saying "God has one vote, the Devil has one vote, and you have the deciding vote."

It is sad that many on here continue to peddle their decisional regeneration gospel.
 

JaumeJ

Senior Member
Jul 2, 2011
16,073
3,004
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Abraham believed God and this was imputed to him as righteousness.

Jesus is God, I believe Him, therefore if I believe the Gospel from Him, why are you insisting we receive it from Paul? It is certain Paul does not mind if we receive the Gospel directly from Jesus, after all this is believeing God. Do you believe Jesus?

Sorry…...I clicked on the wrong post...
 

JaumeJ

Senior Member
Jul 2, 2011
16,073
3,004
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You seem to have it out for me. You just mentioned how one of my responses with the source within was not in line with the OP...……...I wa reponding to the post included. Now if you have nothing better to do than to tell me just how awful I ma, please find something a little more useful to pass your time with. I am truly not that important ot you.
 

JaumeJ

Senior Member
Jul 2, 2011
16,073
3,004
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Yes, they do.

Adrian Rogers was famous for saying "God has one vote, the Devil has one vote, and you have the deciding vote."

It is sad that many on here continue to peddle their decisional regeneration gospel.
You must not accuse others of decisional regenerational gospels when you do not explain what you are saying.

I have not heard of such things, only the Gospel of Jesus Christ. When you accuse others of doing what you have said, you are accusing them of peddling a gospel other that that of Jesus Christ, and only the enemy would say such a thing about others condemning them to the outer darkness.

You should try to know and pass on the Gospel of Jesus Christ insgtead of looking for the wrong in others………...that is inquisictional.
 

marinerscatch

Active member
Nov 23, 2018
114
31
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Casting a vote? Do preachers actually say that? Oy vey!


Some even handle deadly snakes. Being ordained used to be a privilege. But for many today, it's a license to berate anyone who questions them. Now this is not towards anyone on this website. Your question and the way I perceived it being asked, led me to find humor in it. So, I thought I would add a couple of things that we should question anyone who is supposedly ordained.