Amillennialism

[AnandaHya]

wow EG you don't read other people's post real well do you?

notice i broke it in sections? from your responses I don't think you did.

they asked Jesus 3 questions. I should you three sections where He answered them each question.... lets now address your current major hangup and get to the other questions later. the whole Daniel prophecy thing....

let me repost the passages that I believe Jesus answers these questions......


The Great Tribulation


15 “Therefore when you see the ‘abomination of desolation,’[c] spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place” (whoever reads, let him understand), 16 “then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains. 17 Let him who is on the housetop not go down to take anything out of his house. 18 And let him who is in the field not go back to get his clothes. 19 But woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days! 20 And pray that your flight may not be in winter or on the Sabbath. 21 For then there will be great tribulation, such as has not been since the beginning of the world until this time, no, nor ever shall be.

When was this great tribulation? AD 70? You mean to tell me that was worse than WW 1 or WW2? 70 AD after the Christians were persecuted and killed and hunted like dogs by the Pharisees and Rome, see early church history and come back and tell me that was not tribulation?

22 And unless those days were shortened, no flesh would be saved; but for the elect’s sake those days will be shortened.

talks about the destruction of the temple

What? Where do you get this? How could it be the temple? You telling me all those things spoken above happened between pentecost and 70 AD? What nations wared against other nations during that time? Where were the great earthquaks. the disease and famines spoken of. Jesus said ALL FLESH. He did not say ALL JES. or Your people. why are you trying to twist scripture

mmm ??? how could it be the temple? well look at the context, they ask Jesus when the temple will be destroyed, Jesus answers and tells them they will have to flee to the mountains.

It does not talk about the whole world but the ones in the city that must flee and if they continued to be persecuted they would all be killed. yes there were earthquakes, diseases and famines. I will get you some Bible verses or history documents when I get a chance. Are you seriously asking me about if there was war in the Roman world? tell me you're joking about that one.

I'm not trying to twist anything, I just refuse to be blind and place scripture into a preconceived box and attack people who disagree with me.

who do you think is doing the killing? are they "flesh"?

 

[Abiding]

Nope its fire...ready...aim

 

[Crossfire]

....

ok..... OT prophecies have been fulfilled or alluded to in Revelations ?

which OT prophecy has YET to be fulfilled or is NOT alluded to in Revelations?

as you stated Gog and Magog is found in Revelations....

You asked the question 'what Old Testament prophecy has yet to be fulfilled' and I have given you one of the most popular. The fact that John talks about it in Revelation does not change the fact that not all Old Testament prophecy was fulfilled at the moment of the cross.

In an earlier post the prophecies in Zepheniah were brought up as well which certain aspects of the prophecy were fulfilled last century while other aspects are still unfulfilled.

 

[AnandaHya]

The prophesys in Matt 24 correspond closely with the seals in Rev 6. They are still future.

View attachment 1638

how do you know that revelations 6 has not been fulfilled and most of the seals opened?

 

[eternally-gratefull]

wow EG you don't read other people's post real well do you?

Yeah I do amanda.

Yes they broke it into three questions. And I do not agree with your interpretations of this. So I asked you questions throughout the passage to show why I do not agree. (I could have done it at the end. but it probably would have confused you; So I tried to be nice and break the passage down)

So would you kindly please show why I was wrong in my assumptions? or at least answer the questions?

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Now you are accusing...belittle? me? when?stick up for my buddie?who?what are u talking about?
Strangelove?im as aware of his beliefs as you are. Did you think we were roommates? Why is this
about strangelove? who made me the playground attendant?why does his actions justify you? And
what does he have to do with me?and why are you even in a Amillennialism thread????

Dude, If you did not want to be involved, you should have not made that "huddle" comment. Do you not think I knew who that was directed to?

 

[AnandaHya]

You asked the question 'what Old Testament prophecy has yet to be fulfilled' and I have given you one of the most popular. The fact that John talks about it in Revelation does not change the fact that not all Old Testament prophecy was fulfilled at the moment of the cross.

In an earlier post the prophecies in Zepheniah were brought up as well which certain aspects of the prophecy were fulfilled last century while other aspects are still unfulfilled.

what is your stance on the Millennium and the rapture?

 

[AnandaHya]

Yeah I do amanda.

Yes they broke it into three questions. And I do not agree with your interpretations of this. So I asked you questions throughout the passage to show why I do not agree. (I could have done it at the end. but it probably would have confused you; So I tried to be nice and break the passage down)

So would you kindly please show why I was wrong in my assumptions? or at least answer the questions?

ummm I thought I did...

which verses do you think refer to the destruction of the temple?

while you answer I'll look up about earthquake, famines and stuff and post it for you. I can't recite them off the top of my head....

 

[eternally-gratefull]

how do you know that revelations 6 has not been fulfilled and most of the seals opened?

7 When He opened the fourth seal, I heard the voice of the fourth living creature saying, “Come and see.” 8 So I looked, and behold, a pale horse. And the name of him who sat on it was Death, and Hades followed with him. And power was given to them over a fourth of the earth, to kill with sword, with hunger, with death, and by the beasts of the earth

When was 1/4 of the earth destroyed by these things?

5 When He opened the third seal, I heard the third living creature say, “Come and see.” So I looked, and behold, a black horse, and he who sat on it had a pair of scales in his hand. 6 And I heard a voice in the midst of the four living creatures saying, “A quart[c] of wheat for a denarius,[d] and three quarts of barley for a denarius; and do not harm the oil and the wine.”

When was this great famine??

11 Then a white robe was given to each of them; and it was said to them that they should rest a little while longer, until both the number of their fellow servants and their brethren, who would be killed as they were, was completed.

When was this completed?

2 And I looked, and behold, a white horse. He who sat on it had a bow; and a crown was given to him, and he went out conquering and to conquer.

Rome had already owned most of the earth (conquered) so when did this FUTURE thing happen?

12 I looked when He opened the sixth seal, and behold,[e] there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon[f] became like blood. 13 And the stars of heaven fell to the earth, as a fig tree drops its late figs when it is shaken by a mighty wind. 14 Then the sky receded as a scroll when it is rolled up, and every mountain and island was moved out of its place. 15 And the kings of the earth, the great men, the rich men, the commanders,[g] the mighty men, every slave and every free man, hid themselves in the caves and in the rocks of the mountains, 16 and said to the mountains and rocks, “Fall on us and hide us from the face of Him who sits on the throne and from the wrath of the Lamb! 17 For the great day of His wrath has come, and who is able to stand?”

When did all this happen??

 

[eternally-gratefull]

ummm I thought I did...

which verses do you think refer to the destruction of the temple?

As I showed in my post. the same ones you did, the first one. not one rock will stand.

while you answer I'll look up about earthquake, famines and stuff and post it for you. I can't recite them off the top of my head....

don't forget the wars between many nations, the false prophets doing signs, the lawsless one. and the rumors of wars. against who?? Jerusalem was destroyed by the only nation in power. I have heard of no great kingdoms doing battle before jerusalem was destroyed. who went up against rome then?

 

[Abiding]

Dude, If you did not want to be involved, you should have not made that "huddle" comment. Do you not think I knew who that was directed to?

My huddle comment was to you...of coarse i knew youd know...after you said many times
that there was a group out to get you and included my name...i jested...why not? your
totally wrong...and paranoid. Didnt you get it? If i was in a group out against you dont you think
i would find it odd having never met with this group? And talked over the EG plays?

 

[shroom2]

how do you know that revelations 6 has not been fulfilled and most of the seals opened?

1) Have you seen any false Christs? (a couple of nut-jobs, maybe, but nobody with a large following.)
2) Have you seen truly world-wide wars?
3) Have you seen a world-wide famine?
4) Has 1/4 of the world's population been killed? (rev 6:8)
5) Has there been a world-wide earthquake, with the sun darkened, and every mountain moved?
6) Have believers been killed for their beliefs? (some, yes. But nothing like it will be during the trib.)

And I believe Christians will not go through the trib. (pre-millennial, pre-trib) I do not believe Revelation pertains to Christians at all, except for our information. And we will return with Christ in Rev 19:14

(edit: you beat me to it, EG )

 

[AnandaHya]

.

Wars and rumors of wars. How many wars happened between the time jesus departed until 70 AD? And at that. how many antichrist's?
yep lots but it is not until 70 AD but until the end of the church age, antichrist? the list is too long, ask Zone when she gets back she probably has a file labeled "antichrist's/ false prophets"

When did all this happen?? This speaks of a great increase of war, famine, disease, earthquakes all over the word. You know. like what we have seen over the last 100 years, and is getting worse the further in time we go? and we are not even sure this is the begining, it could get worse ummm end of age = end of church age= end of evangelism efforts? what part of that didn't go through?

Who are these false prophets? WHo is in tribulation? who has turned against one another? Who is the lawless one? would take too long to answer fully

End of what? Is jesus preaching a works based Gospel here? (Spiritual life is saved) or is he saying he who endures to the end of this tribulation will be saved (physical life) mmm if you die not denying Jesus and walking in His commandments then you will be saved...

Has the gospel been taught to ALL nations? ummm is this the whole not understanding "end of age" concept?


ok the above answers question 3. when will this age END?.

When was this great tribulation? AD 70? You mean to tell me that was worse than WW 1 or WW2? in terms of killing true believers of Jesus for the NAME of Jesus? YES
.
talks about the destruction of the temple

What? Where do you get this? How could it be the temple? You telling me all those things spoken above happened between pentecost and 70 AD? What nations wared against other nations during that time? Where were the great earthquaks. the disease and famines spoken of. Jesus said ALL FLESH. He did not say ALL JES. or Your people. why are you trying to twist scripture
answered in previous post

So where were all these false prophets and Christ that was doing these great miracles between pentecost and ad 70? reread the book of Acts and rest of the NT there are many


Do you know what the word IMMEDIATE MEANS? It has been almost 2000 years. so why has God not come immediately after those things happened?? second advent thing? you know reading in context and not assuming that the whole passage refers to 70 AD might help....

Matt 24; 3-14 describes the end of the age which we are still apart of this is the church age when the gentiles are being added to the tree of life, at the end of the age God will graft back in some of the natural branches. (Today or 1000 years if you use Revelation symbolism)

Matt 24: 15-22 answers the question about when the temple will be destroyed and what His disciple should expect (only these verses foretell what will happen to Jesus disciples and was fulfilled in 70 AD the rest still is in effect)

Matt 24: 23-31 talks about second advent, which is when Jesus return for Judgment of the whole world and then the new Jereasulem and New Earth happens. (second coming, resurrection of the dead,etc)

I unlike some do not believe the three events are the same thing....so which of these questions if your take that false preconceived notion of my beliefs out would still be applicable? mmm will have to reread them......

ok went back, which points do you want me to expand upon?

 

[Strangelove]

EG....can you stop being so dramatic and condescending please. You really have been making a scene these past few days.

Lets take this nice and slow.

What? Since when does NO FLESH = only the jews??

I said that Jesus was talking about certain people and posted:

(Matthew 24:16) Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:

This is a NATIONAL issue...not a RELIGIOUS one.Yes the "no flesh would be saved; but for the elect’s sake" is regarding Judean (national) CHRISTIANS!

Dude your messed up. The prophesies concerning the land covenant do not refer to the jews. But ALL FLESH does?? Make up your mind. So it does refer to them when it fits your belief, and it doesn't when it does not fit your belief? Do you take anything God says seriously and literally?

Nothing refers to todays 'jews'. Any past land promises were fulfilled in the Kingdoms of Soloman and David and the NT makes it quite clear that NOW any promises are IN CHRIST. But you dont like the KING so you have to give over to racial division. Shame.

Matt 24:16 concerned JUDEAN (national) Christians. It's quite simple.

Yeah, ltet them which be in Judea flee to the mountains. When this great tribulations starts. WHEN YOU SEE THE ABOMINATION. Which HAS NOT HAPPENED YET.

Still waiting for stuff huh?

70AD was the abomination in the temple. Many people have gone thru this with you buy dispology has blinded your eyeballz.

lol.. Wow. You should stop talking, you don't make any sense period. Your answer are so far out there they are not even believable

I'm afraid you are starting to look quite silly, as others have mentioned. You may need to follow your own advice.

 

[Crossfire]

what is your stance on the Millennium and the rapture?

PreMillennial. As for when the rapture will take place no one knows but the heavenly Father although I have yet to find any scripture that is definitive proof of the pre tribulational perspective.

I used to believe that Satan was bound because as much as people believe in paranormal activity it can't be scientifically proven. However, later in life God began to deal with me about the current state of the over all church. There are so many issues it's just too much to list here. I began to look at the number of people who sincerely call themselves believers yet are bound in habitual sin, fear, doubt... just to name a few of many issues that plague today's churches and the church's inability to do anything about it.

That's when I realized that Satan isn't bound. He's hiding and he thrives on the fact that the church either underestimates or overestimates his abilities. Although his power is limited, he is quite masterful in using the subtle things like pride, ambition, fear and doubt to destroy the modern church. He doesn't need army to render the church impotent in faith, pornography and complacency seem to work just as good, although if you were to give the opportunity to raise up an army he'd kill us all.

 

[Strangelove]

one of the things people who support the double dispensationist position (i'm not referring to exclusively you EG when I say this) is that they say that Jesus did not fulfill the feast of tabernacle.

After some research and prayer I have to disagree with them.

I have alluded in the above post that Jesus is the substance of the shadow that the feast of tabernacle is suppose to remind the Jewish people of. they are suppose to remember how God gave them manna in the deserts, Jesus says HE is the true manna from Heaven and if you eat of His bread (which is His Words) you will not be hungry again. Also the feast of tabernacle is to remember when Moses struck a rock and water came flowing from it which alludes to when Jesus was struck on the cross and after His ascension sends forth LIVING Water which is His Holy Spirit.

truthfully this topic has not been a key cornerstone of my beliefs since I believe on taking one day at a time and not trying to foretell the future beyond what God wants me to do in the present in preparation for it.

However I'm reminded of these verses:

Hebrews 4:12
For the word of God is living and powerful, and sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing even to the division of soul and spirit, and of joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.

therefore I would vocalize and discuss my findings and discover why we are not in agreement over certain key intepertations of scripture and prophecy. if it can be done in a respectful and rational manner.

Again I state my premises that

1. all OT prophecies have been either
a. fulfilled through Jesus or
b. stated again in the book of Revelations

2. Amillenianism is logical and Bibilically based upon the symbolism of numbers in the Jewish traditions concerning prophecy and Jesus and His disciples own words about the Kingdom of God is at hand.

3. a. that between when the law was given to Moses until Jesus sent His Holy Spirit during Pentecost is considered an Age

b. and we now live in a NEW Age which is called TODAY

c. and a new covenant which replaces the one made with Moses who was given the LAW

d. and fulfills the Promise given to both Abraham and Eve about the Seed who would crush serpents and young lions under His feet

e. and Heaven is the promise land and the promised Rest, not physical Canaan though Canaan is used as a symbol to foreshadow on Earth what is true in Heaven. much like sacrificing Isaac foreshadow's Jesus' death on the cross.


anyways this is a chart of the two positions I have heard explained so far....

This is very good Ananda well done.

 

[AnandaHya]

1) Have you seen any false Christs? (a couple of nut-jobs, maybe, but nobody with a large following.) are you serious? Jesus disciples numbered 120 on the day of pentecost... um have you cked the stats at any megachurch?
2) Have you seen truly world-wide wars?
3) Have you seen a world-wide famine?
4) Has 1/4 of the world's population been killed? (rev 6:8)
5) Has there been a world-wide earthquake, with the sun darkened, and every mountain moved?
6) Have believers been killed for their beliefs? (some, yes. But nothing like it will be during the trib.)

And I believe Christians will not go through the trib. (pre-millennial, pre-trib) I do not believe Revelation pertains to Christians at all, except for our information. And we will return with Christ in Rev 19:14

(edit: you beat me to it, EG )

ok if you want to be blind to history that is your choice.

2. I mean WWI and WWII just got those names because the people just felt like labeling them that....

3. ummm yeah you want some pictures of starving people?

4. yes over 1/4 of the world population is spiritually dead

5. mmm let me find those verses and get back to you on that but yes when part of the earth shakes you know the rest does to right? its called plate tectonics....

6. how do you know what it will be like during the trib? have you read anything about the Christian church in China or any of the Muslim Countries...

hey Sam you reading this and want to tell them about Nepal?

just because you want it to be true does not make it so....

again reread my post I did not say all of Matt 24 happened in 70 AD just the verses about the prophecy of Daniel and the fall of the temple. to try and lump it all in would be to misrepresent my beliefs and position on the matter.

 

[Strangelove]

I gave you an answer. Jesus said it will be when a period of time no flesh will survive. So unless you believe like Strangleove does and it only means jews (even though flesh means ALL living creatures) this HAS NOT HAPPENED YET. So there is your proof!

How hard is this seriously?

(Luke 21:20) And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh.

(Luke 21:21) Then let them which are in Judaea flee to the mountains; and let them which are in the midst of it depart out; and let not them that are in the countries enter thereinto.

Abomination of Desolation = Roman Armies coming into the Temple and carrying out all their pagan rites in there.

Them that flee - Judaens.

(Matthew 24:22) And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.

Some Christians will be saved. If not then NO flesh would be saved.

This isnt rocket surgery bud.

What is yer problem with this?

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Wars and rumors of wars. How many wars happened between the time jesus departed until 70 AD? And at that. how many antichrist's?
yep lots but it is not until 70 AD but until the end of the church age, antichrist? the list is too long, ask Zone when she gets back she probably has a file labeled "antichrist's/ false prophets"

so then it is NOT ad 70?? Now I am even more confused. You said it ALL ended at ad 70. which is it?? And I know there has been alot since then.



When did all this happen?? This speaks of a great increase of war, famine, disease, earthquakes all over the word. You know. like what we have seen over the last 100 years, and is getting worse the further in time we go? and we are not even sure this is the begining, it could get worse

ummm end of age = end of church age= end of evangelism efforts? what part of that didn't go through?

The part where you said it refers to the the temple.

Who are these false prophets? WHo is in tribulation? who has turned against one another? Who is the lawless one?

would take too long to answer fully

End of what? Is jesus preaching a works based Gospel here? (Spiritual life is saved) or is he saying he who endures to the end of this tribulation will be saved (physical life)

mmm if you die not denying Jesus and walking in His commandments then you will be saved...

So he is not talking about the end of the Age her? and he is talking about eternal life her not physical life?? Sorry i can not agree. That would make Christ teaching a works based, even Zone does not agree here I am sure. Gospel.

Has the gospel been taught to ALL nations?

ummm is this the whole not understanding "end of age" concept?


ok the above answers question 3. when will this age END?.

When was this great tribulation? AD 70? You mean to tell me that was worse than WW 1 or WW2? in terms of killing true believers of Jesus for the NAME of Jesus? YES

Not even close. and this is opinion. not fact. Sorry I can't agree. what Hitler did to the jews made what Titus did look like a playground. And in the name of jesus?? what?? where do you get this??
.
talks about the destruction of the temple

What does?? the end of the age and all the stuff? Your confusing me!

What? Where do you get this? How could it be the temple? You telling me all those things spoken above happened between pentecost and 70 AD? What nations wared against other nations during that time? Where were the great earthquaks. the disease and famines spoken of. Jesus said ALL FLESH. He did not say ALL JES. or Your people. why are you trying to twist scripture

answered in previous post

if it was answered I would not have asked


So where were all these false prophets and Christ that was doing these great miracles between pentecost and ad 70?
reread the book of Acts and rest of the NT there are many

I have seen no where of false prophets doing many signs and wonders.


Do you know what the word IMMEDIATE MEANS? It has been almost 2000 years. so why has God not come immediately after those things happened??

second advent thing? you know reading in context and not assuming that the whole passage refers to 70 AD might help....

So that means the tribulation HAS NOT HAPPENED YET? which is supposed to occure RIGHT AFTER THE ABOMINATION?

Matt 24; 3-14 describes the end of the age which we are still apart of this is the church age when the gentiles are being added to the tree of life, at the end of the age God will graft back in some of the natural branches. (Today or 1000 years if you use Revelation symbolism)

What symbolism? Why should I not take 1000 years to mean 1000 years? When did God ever prophesy a time period that was not literally fulfilled?

Matt 24: 15-22 answers the question about when the temple will be destroyed and what His disciple should expect (only these verses foretell what will happen to Jesus disciples and was fulfilled in 70 AD the rest still is in effect)

Agree

Matt 24: 23-31 talks about second advent, which is when Jesus return for Judgment of the whole world and then the new Jereasulem and New Earth happens. (second coming, resurrection of the dead,etc)

yet revelation speaks of Gods wrath and judgment being poured out on the world. Not after he comes, but before.. why is that?

I unlike some do not believe the three events are the same thing....so which of these questions if your take that false preconceived notion of my beliefs out would still be applicable? mmm will have to reread them......

The passage says the tribulation immediately follows the abomination. which is immediately followed by his return to "save all flesh" Did Jesus return to save all flesh when Jerusalem was destroyed? or are we still waiting??

so where is the immediacy? we have been in great tribulation for almost 2000 years??

Your timeline does not make sense. that is why I am asking

 

[Strangelove]

Or do you think I Thing God will save all isreal no matter what they do?? (Like strangelove claims I believe?)

Oh so....All Israel are not gonna be saved then EG?