Amillennialism

[AnandaHya]

I believe the topic changed completely between verses 2 and 3. Verses 3 and following concern the end times, not the destruction of the temple. I could be wrong.

Verse 7, for example, I believe is referring to things that will happen in Revelation, not at the destruction of the temple.

You have given me something to check more in to, Ananda.

it talks about the answers to three questions. I've already explained my position.

the disciples ask Jesus when the temple will be destroyed and He answers. reread it and get back to me...gotta go pick up my son and we have to visit in laws and have a birthday party this weekend so I'll catch ya later.

 

[Strangelove]

Questions for Premillers:

Matthew 25:31, 46; Revelation 20:11-15: Jesus said, "But when the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the angels with Him, then He will sit on His glorious [Great White] throne. ALL THE NATIONS will be gathered before Him; and He will separate them from one another, as the shepherd separates the sheep from the goats; and He will put THE SHEEP on His right, and THE GOATS on the left...[Then after the Judgment, the unrighteous] will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life." Who will be present at the Great White Throne Judgment?


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John 5:28-29: "For AN HOUR [singular] is coming, in which ALL who are in the tombs will hear His voice, and will come forth; THOSE WHO DID THE GOOD DEEDS [the saints] to a resurrection of life, THOSE WHO COMMITTED EVIL DEEDS [the unsaved] to a resurrection of judgment." Who will be resurrected at the same hour?


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John 6:39-40: Jesus said, "This is the will of Him who sent Me, that of all that He has given Me I lose nothing, but raise it up ON THE LAST DAY. For this is the will of My Father, that everyone who beholds the Son and believes in Him will have eternal life, and I Myself will raise him up ON THE LAST DAY." When will the believers be raised up?


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John 6:44: Jesus said, "No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up ON THE LAST DAY." When will the saved be raised up?


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John 11:24: "Martha said to Him [Jesus], I know that he [Lazarus] will rise again in the resurrection ON THE LAST DAY." When will the resurrection of the saints be?


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John 12:48: Jesus said, "He who rejects Me and does not receive My sayings, has one who judges him; the word I spoke is what will judge him AT THE LAST DAY." When will the Judgment of the unsaved be?


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Acts 24:15: "There shall certainly be A RESURRECTION [singular] OF BOTH the righteous and the wicked [together]." When will the resurrection of the righteous and the wicked be?


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1 Thessalonians 4:15-17: Paul said, "For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that WE WHO ARE ALIVE and remain until the coming of the Lord, WILL NOT PRECEDE THOSE WHO HAVE FALLEN ASLEEP. For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and WITH THE [last] TRUMPET of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. Then we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we shall always be with the Lord." What instrument will be sounded when the rapture and the resurrection of the saints occurs?


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2 Thessalonians 2:1-3: Paul said, "...With regard to the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him [the rapture]...Let no one in any way deceive you, for it will not come UNLESS THE APOSTASY COMES FIRST, AND THE MAN OF LAWLESSNESS [Antichrist] IS REVEALED, the son of destruction." What must come before the rapture? Will Christ return at any moment before these events?


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1 Corinthians 15:51-52: Paul said, "Behold, I tell you a mystery; we [Christians] WILL NOT ALL SLEEP, but we will all be changed [at the rapture], in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, AT THE LAST TRUMPET; for the trumpet will sound, and THE DEAD WILL BE RAISED incorruptible, and we will ALL be changed." When will the saints, alive and dead, be changed in the twinkling of an eye?


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Revelation 10:7: "In the days when the SEVENTH ANGEL IS ABOUT TO SOUND HIS TRUMPET [the seventh and last], the mystery of God [mentioned by Paul in 1 Cor. 15:51] will be accomplished" On which day will the last trumpet sound and the rapture and resurrection occur?


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Revelation 11:15-18: "THE SEVENTH ANGEL SOUNDED HIS TRUMPET [the last one]...The nations were angry; and your [God’s] wrath has come. The time has come for judging the dead, and for rewarding your servants the prophets and your saints...and for destroying those who destroy the earth." At which trumpet sound and on which day will the Judgment of God and the rewarding of the saints be?


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CREDIT: THE PRE-TRIBULATION RAPTURE HOAX
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[eternally-gratefull]

By coming to Jesus obviously.

So will all the jews be saved or not?

Ah, well I thought you said I believed they would just automatically be saved no matter what, like I guess darby believes.

All jews?? What people who "claim to be jews? or peaople who are actually "All Israel"? there is a big difference there.

And what does Paul say? Especially since Paul separates Israel and Gentile in romans 11 when he makes this statement. Which means he is not talking about the church.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Where did anyone say you believed that?

You did. Now what are you backing away from your claim?

 

[DiscipleWilliam]

*Ding, Ding, Ding!!! LLLLLLLLLLLets GGGGGGGGGGGet RRRRRRReady TTTTTo RRRRRRRRumble!!!!!*

you all are too much lol!!

 

[Strangelove]

Ah, well I thought you said I believed they would just automatically be saved no matter what, like I guess darby believes.

All jews?? What people who "claim to be jews? or peaople who are actually "All Israel"? there is a big difference there.

And what does Paul say? Especially since Paul separates Israel and Gentile in romans 11 when he makes this statement. Which means he is not talking about the church.

Ok...so we're back to...

How do you know all Israel are not saved already?

 

[Strangelove]

You did. Now what are you backing away from your claim?

Where did I claim that you believed all Israel will be saved without them repenting?

 

[Strangelove]

**EG furiously scours the threads trying to find the quote**

 

[Abiding]

I rest my case?? So anyone that reads this does not think Strangelove has not taken to making personal attacks??

He does not care what I believe. he has already proven that.

he wants to debate. but how can one debate when you do not know what the other believes.

i tell ya abiding.. lets see how honest you are. are you ready to rebuke strangle for his attacks. or is it just me??

I mean unclfester rebuked red. and I agreed with the rebuke. Are people afraid to say a word aginst stranglelove? does he hold that much power over everyone?

You got yourself into this...ill get you some cocoa and cookies,
but im not reading every bit, im not seeing any wrong, cept theres a little to much whining

 

[Abiding]

Doc I rebuke you...there

 

[eternally-gratefull]

try one more time

section one answers question 3 of the disciples: When does the age end and what signs to watch.

Yes, And included in this section is the Abomination of desolation. which happens at the END OF THE AGE

we agree on the second part about the temple, that is the ONLY thing fulfilled 70 AD. (which by the way you just agreed that the prophecy of Daniel was fulfilled at the destruction of the temple)

No where in the 2nd part does it speak of the temple being destroyed. It says it is abominated. It was abominated by antiochos epiphanies before Christ came, and the temple was not destroyed. why would we ASSUME it is destroyed here? Again time line does not fit.


And No we don;t agree. there was no war to end all wars. there was no abomination. there was no covenant. Daniel 9 can't be fulfilled.

Jesus saves all flesh now so I don't see the point, but it talks about the end times and after the Son of perdition is revealed who is NOT the Abomination as mentioned earlier...

A person is not an abomination. A person commits an abomination. So I don't see your point. Daniel says the FUTURE prince of the people who destroy the temple (which occured in 70 ad) commits this abomination. In a time sequence LONG after the temple is destroyed.

And why do you think Jesus saves all flesh? Rev says when he returns he kills all evil people. if he kills all who are evil.. who is left? Those who endured to the end right?

the immediacy is that God's timeline is not ours and our lives are but a grain of sand but God loves us even though we are but a blink in the landscape of time.

If I tell you imediately after I do something. I will then do this. Then wait 2000 years. It did not happen immediately. Jesus is talking to us in our language, Not in his, or his time frame. He is telling us how we will see things unfold. So when he says immediate. He means imediate

you keep wanting to blend all three answers into one event. that's why my responses don't make any sense to you.

No they are many events spread over many years. WHy would you say I want to make them one event?

3 separate events answering three different questions.

Actually 4 events. The destruction. The things which would happen after the destruction. The birth pangs, then the 2nd coming

want to discuss them one at a time or keep being confused about which one we are even discussing?

Thats fine if you really want to discuss. At least your being civil about it. We can even open another thread.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

yeah it talks about how God will always have a remnant of faithful people and not allow all of them to be killed

but the whole save the whole world idea is so much more cozy. eeehhh? forget the fact God will give glorified bodies upon His return and other pesky details about the goat and the sheep, the tares and the wheat, etc.

I made a typo. He returns so ALL flesh will not be destroyed is what I meant to say. I was hot and in a hurry because my time was almost up. I do not get much time to talk in here I usually have to hurry

At least I can admit a mistake

 

[Strangelove]

Doc I rebuke you...there

I consider myself rebuked.

 

[Fencepost]

<walks in>

 

[AnandaHya]

first I don't understand what you think the disciples are asking about when they say "when will this happen?" if it is not referring to the destruction of the temple that Jesus was talking about in verses 1 and 2.

but part is our different understanding of Daniel 9...

A person is not an abomination. A person commits an abomination. So I don't see your point. Daniel says the FUTURE prince of the people who destroy the temple (which occured in 70 ad) commits this abomination. In a time sequence LONG after the temple is destroyed.

Thats fine if you really want to discuss. At least your being civil about it. We can even open another thread.

Daniel does NOT say the Future prince, but the PEOPLE of the future prince. there is a big difference. let us look at the key verse

Daniel 9
26 &#8220; And after the sixty-two weeks
Messiah shall be cut off, but not for Himself; (Jesus cruxified)
And the people of the prince who is to come (romans and antichrist people)
Shall destroy the city and the sanctuary. (destruction of temple 70 AD)

The end of it shall be with a flood, (do you remember the verses in Revelation where Satan floods the woman and her children who have the testimony of Christ?)
And till the end of the war desolations are determined. (this would be Ammageddon)but the statement says the END of the War is determined meaning finding out who will win, this happened when Jesus defeated all powers and principalities at the cross


27 Then he shall confirm a covenant with many for one week; who is the HE?can God make more then one covenant? can He make it conditional?
But in the middle of the week
He shall bring an end to sacrifice and offering. Did not Jesus bring an end to sacrifice by giving HIS life as the only sacrifice needed?

And on the wing of abominations shall be one who makes desolate, sounds like the Whore Babylon
Even until the consummation, which is determined,
Is poured out on the desolate.&#8221;

why do I think the verses "on the wings of abominations" means Babylon?

well it fits with these verses:

Zechariah 5

5 Then the angel who talked with me came out and said to me, &#8220;Lift your eyes now, and see what this is that goes forth.&#8221;
6 So I asked, &#8220;What is it?&#8221; And he said, &#8220;It is a basket[a] that is going forth.&#8221;
He also said, &#8220;This is their resemblance throughout the earth: 7 Here is a lead disc lifted up, and this is a woman sitting inside the basket&#8221;; 8 then he said, &#8220;This is Wickedness!&#8221; And he thrust her down into the basket, and threw the lead cover over its mouth. 9 Then I raised my eyes and looked, and there were two women, coming with the wind in their wings; for they had wings like the wings of a stork, and they lifted up the basket between earth and heaven.
10 So I said to the angel who talked with me, &#8220;Where are they carrying the basket?&#8221;
11 And he said to me, &#8220;To build a house for it in the land of Shinar;[c] when it is ready, the basket will be set there on its base.&#8221;

shinar is another name for Babylon and the verses before talks about the curse upon the world, which would be desolate, as the world consummates their affair with the Whore.

 

[Red33]

Doc I rebuke you...there

He's been rebuked, but it's good to see you come around just a little, even in your sarcasm. Someone who is of a heart that wants to know the things of God is one thing, but for someone to be intentionally controversial and stir up strife, in nothing less than a troublemaker that causes division and contentions among believers. Abiding, is that what you like to see promoted in the body of Christ as a believer? You and others have no problem accusing me of being harsh about this but do you refuse to see the strife and contention that is present? Personality rapport is getting along with others because you have something in common that you can attach yourself to with others, even if it is doctrine or likeminded understanding. There is nothing godly or sacred about that and it does not reveal true fellowship. A person who is hungry after the things of God receives the truth through grace and meekness because they are teachable and their heart is not hardened nor are they stiffnecked concerning the nature of God's goodness.

 

[Strangelove]

He's been rebuked, but it's good to see you come around just a little, even in your sarcasm. Someone who is of a heart that wants to know the things of God is one thing, but for someone to be intentionally controversial and stir up strife, in nothing less than a troublemaker that causes division and contentions among believers. Abiding, is that what you like to see promoted in the body of Christ as a believer? You and others have no problem accusing me of being harsh about this but do you refuse to see the strife and contention that is present? Personality rapport is getting along with others because you have something in common that you can attach yourself to with others, even if it is doctrine or likeminded understanding. There is nothing godly or sacred about that and it does not reveal true fellowship. A person who is hungry after the things of God receives the truth through grace and meekness because they are teachable and their heart is not hardened nor are they stiffnecked concerning the nature of God's goodness.

LOLZ!

Christians getting along with each other because of DOCTRINE is...erm.....not godly????!!!!

LOLZ AGAIN!!

 

[Strangelove]

Red, did Jesus come to bring peace to the world..or did He cause division and strife between people?

 

[unclefester]

I rest my case?? So anyone that reads this does not think Strangelove has not taken to making personal attacks??

He does not care what I believe. he has already proven that.

he wants to debate. but how can one debate when you do not know what the other believes.

i tell ya abiding.. lets see how honest you are. are you ready to rebuke strangle for his attacks. or is it just me??

I mean unclfester rebuked red. and I agreed with the rebuke. Are people afraid to say a word aginst stranglelove? does he hold that much power over everyone?

Good morning EG. I am not now nor ever will I be willing/content to exchange whatever semblance of integrity I might have in the Lord for the sake of any "friendship" with anybody. I will be honest here and say yes ..... there have been a few occasions on this thread where I am of the opinion that Strangelove could have tempered the point he was making in a gentler manner. Having said that, I'd be lying if I said that the same thing isn't true of yourself as well. Furthermore, I myself can be thrown into the mix also, if not on this thread, at least certainly on others. But like all imperfect creatures, we sometimes allow our passion to cloud our better judgement. I've avoided this thread for good reason. For many years, I was like most people that adhered to the dispensational teachings and more specifically, the pre-trib rapture. And as much as I'd like to be able to say that it is easy to discern and understand, the simple truth is that it is not. Arguments have been made to substantiate each point of view for centuries ........ and this debate will not go away until Christ does in fact return. I am personally convinced of the amillennialist position. And this I also believe ...... those not prepared to give up all, including their very life for the sake of their faith in Christ are those who would forsake it under severe tribulation. This I am also sure of. We are getting close to the return of Christ ..... and there will be only two advents.......with one already occurring. Even though we may not agree on all things biblical, I still consider you, Red and others my brothers in Christ. We all fall short and are in need of God's grace. Let each of us present our case and trust the Holy Spirit to convict where He will. However great our passion, it pales in comparison to what God can and will do. I love you EG.

 

[AnandaHya]

scapegoating helps no one.

personality rapport?

how about loving them even if you do not like their personality? How about showing the world agape love that transcends denominations, doctrines, countries, ideas of "worthiness"?

" A person who is hungry after the things of God receives the truth through grace and meekness because they are teachable and their heart is not hardened nor are they stiffnecked concerning the nature of God's goodness."

this is done through the HOLY SPIRIT.

Sometimes God tells us to stand fast in our conviction of Truth even if others do not have "personality rapport" with us.

He does not ask for us to like those who stand with us, He commands that we LOVE them.

Galatians 5

1 Stand fast therefore in the liberty by which Christ has made us free,[a] and do not be entangled again with a yoke of bondage. 2 Indeed I, Paul, say to you that if you become circumcised, Christ will profit you nothing. 3 And I testify again to every man who becomes circumcised that he is a debtor to keep the whole law.


many would have you bow to THEM and claim it is from God.

I bow before God and stand when He prompts me to and walk away when God commands me to, can you say the same? Are your actions in accordance with God's will?

can you walk away when God commands it?