Amillennialism

[shroom2]

It's not a conundrum.

We debate it out and the one that says something like.

"I'm through dealing with you, Strangelove. It's an exercise in futility. Claim victory if you want."

...is undoubtably the one with error in their theology coz they have no answers.

undoubtedly.......

You did not have to respond to my post to Red. Why did you? To broadcast that you "won" another thread?

You do not debate. You bulldoze. You overwhelm. You insult. You belittle. You only look for ways to refute the words a person is saying, rather than consider what they are saying.

 

[Strangelove]

Exactly Doc. I'm not sure if I know any amil/cessationists that weren't initially pre-mil/dispy's ......unless they were raised in it ? Not in my circle anyways.

Well now you know one. Me!

I wasnt raised in any kind of endtimes viewpoint, not even in Christianity....I read the NT all on my lonesome, without any influence.

I remember the exact day when someone on the forums asked me about the 'millenial Kingdom'.

And I said....It doesnt make any sense, why would Jesus come and rule in a millenial kingdom on Earth for a thousand years,....and then let satan loose to run amock? All the horrible stuff is described in the scriptures as happening just BEFORE the second advent.

Like...huh?

 

[Abiding]

He's been rebuked, but it's good to see you come around just a little, even in your sarcasm. Someone who is of a heart that wants to know the things of God is one thing, but for someone to be intentionally controversial and stir up strife, in nothing less than a troublemaker that causes division and contentions among believers. Abiding, is that what you like to see promoted in the body of Christ as a believer? You and others have no problem accusing me of being harsh about this but do you refuse to see the strife and contention that is present? Personality rapport is getting along with others because you have something in common that you can attach yourself to with others, even if it is doctrine or likeminded understanding. There is nothing godly or sacred about that and it does not reveal true fellowship. A person who is hungry after the things of God receives the truth through grace and meekness because they are teachable and their heart is not hardened nor are they stiffnecked concerning the nature of God's goodness.

No Red i havnt changed one iota. This is a bible discussion forum, not a hugfest.And your wrong in your judgement of others motives. EG came to a thread he didnt believe and he on his own engaged. And as long as its been going on i find it too hard to not expect some fatigue, emotion, and maybe frustriation. But your armchair quarterbacking isnt needed at all. Youve only brought in ideas(yours) that cause division while trying to accuse others of causing division. If your fine with your eschatology why are you even in this thread? Why do you bring up stiffnecked, and teachable so much? Your not teachable. Do you even understand clearly the Amillenial view, because your emotions control your doctrines. Ive read that much in your posts. To me Red youve just become obsessed with others who dont agree with you. Well I dont agree with you, but it sure doesnt rattle me. No not one bit. I have plenty of brothers and sisters that i love who dont agree on all doctrines, nor do we run from controversial discussions.

 

[Strangelove]

You do not debate. You bulldoze. You overwhelm. You insult. You belittle. You only look for ways to refute the words a person is saying, rather than consider what they are saying.

I consider, then I refute.

 

[unclefester]

Well now you know one. Me!

I wasnt raised in any kind of endtimes viewpoint, not even in Christianity....I read the NT all on my lonesome, without any influence.

I remember the exact day when someone on the forums asked me about the 'millenial Kingdom'.

And I said....It doesnt make any sense, why would Jesus come and rule in a millenial kingdom on Earth for a thousand years,....and then let satan loose to run amock? All the horrible stuff is described in the scriptures as happening just BEFORE the second advent.

Like...huh?

Loud and clear Doc ...... loud and clear

 

[Abiding]

a little break for the more sensitive type

 

[Red33]

I would kindly ask the same courtesy of you that you ask of others Red. Re-read what you just said to me a few posts back :

If you are getting tiresome, make the decision and get on the right side of the scriptures. On that side you will have righteousness, peace and joy in the Holy Spirit and you won't ever have to deal wth being double-minded ever again. See how good that can be for you. Oh, I hope you do.

There's no double-mindedness here Red. And ironically, or sadly, ....take your pick .......if I were one insecure in my belief (double-minded) and was seeking further understanding, your assumption or sarcasm..... .......or both would immediately lead me to disregard any of your counsel. Whatever happened to you man ??

Double-mindedness is being double-souled. What that means is that you have two forms of doctrine that gives you a double-soul. People that are double-souled usually lean toward one or the other through their own understanding that can be easily influenced by others. They are never quite sure which one is the right to go with and they are afraid to forsake the one (they lean upon) for the other just in case they are wrong, they want backup. That is no way to live as a believer, for that believer is unstable in all their ways because double-mindedness becomes the ruling premise for their knowledge and understanding and what they acknowledge as the truth.

They can also be carried about by every wind of doctrine because they have not been established in their heart with sound doctrine through the preaching ad teaching of a qualified pastor-teacher, which would give them a sound mind and sound emotions in the will and counsel of God. They would have the rooms of their soul filled with sound doctrine to be throughly furnished unto all good works.

 

[Strangelove]

a little break for the more sensitive type

Lolz!

**sigh**

Its funny cuz....cuz he's pouring tea on the table.

 

[Strangelove]

Someone really really doesnt want us talking about this topic.

I suggest we simply ignore.

 

[Abiding]

ok then

 

[eternally-gratefull]

You have given my post a premise that I never gave it and never considered the issue of being saved or not. The premise for the post is concerning doctrine and what we believe in Christ as one faith which includes all doctrine, even the doctrine of our salvation. Read it again and don't interject your own premise and maybe you will see it differently, but if you don't, that is your problem not mine.

This is a thread about Amillennialism. That is the topic. You came in bashing people. saying we all need to be in agreement, and Christ's church should not be divided. Considering it is what divided a few people in here. Any mature person reading your comments would make the assumption you are speaking of these divisions.

Now your backing away and saying that is not it?? WOW!

 

[AnandaHya]

a little break for the more sensitive type

lol I'm always ready to have a tea party with you Abiding I'll pour the tea

 

[AnandaHya]

Seeing that the post is directed to premills with a bunch of scripture verses let me clarify that im not premill. And im not sure exactly what you are asking in there. Clarify maybe and i will let you know where i stand. For the time being i am going outside to do some weeding. Ttyl. Btw.. I am also not amillen. But that doesnt mean i am going to argue my point.

so are you postmil then? lol unless there is another one I don't know about.

you may join Abiding and me for tea if you like, lol

mmm no scriptures two pages i'll go back further and see if I can find something....

Hey sister how ya doin'?

 

[Abiding]

lol I'm always ready to have a tea party with you Abiding I'll pour the tea

Please do, you see my problem...i can tell by the look on yur face

 

[AnandaHya]

first I don't understand what you think the disciples are asking about when they say "when will this happen?" if it is not referring to the destruction of the temple that Jesus was talking about in Matt 24 verses 1 and 2.

but part is our different understanding of Daniel 9...



Daniel does NOT say the Future prince, but the PEOPLE of the future prince. there is a big difference. let us look at the key verse

Daniel 9
26 “ And after the sixty-two weeks
Messiah shall be cut off, but not for Himself; (Jesus cruxified)
And the people of the prince who is to come (romans and antichrist people)
Shall destroy the city and the sanctuary. (destruction of temple 70 AD)

The end of it shall be with a flood, (do you remember the verses in Revelation where Satan floods the woman and her children who have the testimony of Christ?)
And till the end of the war desolations are determined. (this would be Ammageddon)but the statement says the END of the War is determined meaning finding out who will win, this happened when Jesus defeated all powers and principalities at the cross


27 Then he shall confirm a covenant with many for one week; who is the HE?can God make more then one covenant? can He make it conditional?
But in the middle of the week
He shall bring an end to sacrifice and offering. Did not Jesus bring an end to sacrifice by giving HIS life as the only sacrifice needed?

And on the wing of abominations shall be one who makes desolate, sounds like the Whore Babylon
Even until the consummation, which is determined,
Is poured out on the desolate.”

why do I think the verses "on the wings of abominations" means Babylon?

well it fits with these verses:

Zechariah 5

5 Then the angel who talked with me came out and said to me, “Lift your eyes now, and see what this is that goes forth.”
6 So I asked, “What is it?” And he said, “It is a basket[a] that is going forth.”
He also said, “This is their resemblance throughout the earth: 7 Here is a lead disc lifted up, and this is a woman sitting inside the basket”; 8 then he said, “This is Wickedness!” And he thrust her down into the basket, and threw the lead cover over its mouth. 9 Then I raised my eyes and looked, and there were two women, coming with the wind in their wings; for they had wings like the wings of a stork, and they lifted up the basket between earth and heaven.
10 So I said to the angel who talked with me, “Where are they carrying the basket?”
11 And he said to me, “To build a house for it in the land of Shinar;[c] when it is ready, the basket will be set there on its base.”

shinar is another name for Babylon and the verses before talks about the curse upon the world, which would be desolate, as the world consummates their affair with the Whore.

ok any comments on scriptures posted?

 

[eternally-gratefull]

ok any comments on scriptures posted?

I already did. maybe you missed it. will post it again.

Originally Posted by AnandaHya

first I don't understand what you think the disciples are asking about when they say "when will this happen?" if it is not referring to the destruction of the temple that Jesus was talking about in verses 1 and 2.

When will "this" happen is a wrong interpretation. It is not a singular noun, the greek word is the plural/neuter form of the greek word outos, which means this. The plural form of this would be "these" The destruction of the temple is just one thing. yet they asked about "things". It is obvious from the plural use and the fact Jesus answers them by referencing daniel 9. that when the disciples heard him mentions the destruction of the sanctuary. they remembered daniel 9. and asked him when "these things" or the things spoken of in daniel 9 would occur. It is also obvious that they put daniel 9 and the coming messiah together. Considering they asked what are the signs of his coming back. It is obvious they understood the prophesy which said the messiah will be cut off after 69 weeks. and then things must happen in between the time he is "cut off" and the time he returns. Thy were starting to get it. but they still had many questions and did not understand it yet. They would not really understand it in full until Christ arose from the dead.

but part is our different understanding of Daniel 9...

I agree. this is what totally separates a pre verses an a millennialist.

Daniel does NOT say the Future prince, but the PEOPLE of the future prince. there is a big difference. let us look at the key verse

Yes the people of the future prince who is to come will Destroy the sanctuary.

Daniel 9
26 “ And after the sixty-two weeks
Messiah shall be cut off, but not for Himself; (Jesus cruxified)
And the people of the prince who is to come (romans and antichrist people)
Shall destroy the city and the sanctuary. (destruction of temple 70 AD)

Agree. Who destroyed the temple? Rome. Which means the "prince which is to come" will somehow come from the roman people

The end of it shall be with a flood, (do you remember the verses in Revelation where Satan floods the woman and her children who have the testimony of Christ?)

I am not sure where you are going with this? Rev speaks of the serpant which spews a flood to flood the woman who gave birth to Christ. Yet is says the earth swallowed up the flood and the woman was saved. I do not see how we could get this to happen in AD 70. no one was spared. Israel was destroyed, and all the people were taken captive or killed.

second, The church did not give birth to Christ. Christ gave birth to the church. So The church can not be the women

And till the end of the war desolations are determined. (this would be Ammageddon)but the statement says the END of the War is determined meaning finding out who will win, this happened when Jesus defeated all powers and principalities at the cross

This is a good speculation. But I can not agree. War and destruction is still going on today, the wars and total destructions have not ended, in fact in revelations we are told of two great wars. so this has not yet been fulfilled. The prophesy of daniel is not talking about spiritual wars, and even if he is these wars are not over, Scripture says plainly our battle is not against flesh and blood, but against principalities and powers. we are still at war with satan

27 Then he shall confirm a covenant with many for one week; who is the HE?can God make more then one covenant? can He make it conditional?

"he" is not Christ. The prince who is to come comes out of the people who destroys the temple. He would come from the people of rome. I believe he is the final prince of the roman empire, or the little horn who comes out of the last gentile power spoken of in daniel. Since "he" can not be christ. It can not be talking about a covanant made by God. Plus this covenant is said to be one week (7 years) in length. when has God ever made a 7 year covenant?.

But in the middle of the week
He shall bring an end to sacrifice and offering. Did not Jesus bring an end to sacrifice by giving HIS life as the only sacrifice needed?

Does not make sense. Nor does it fit the timeline.

The temple is destroyed first. Then the flood, then the end of wars and destructions. Then the covenant which last for one week. Then in the middle of THIS WEEK the end of sacrifice and ofering takes place. Christ dies long before any of these things take place.

And on the wing of abominations shall be one who makes desolate, sounds like the Whore Babylon

Sounds like it, I can agree with this. But I don't agree that it is the whore. This is a person (the prince) who commits abomination by desolating the holy of holies. The whore does not do this. the prince does.

Even until the consummation, which is determined,
Is poured out on the desolate.”

This speaks of the consumation of Gods wrath poured out on the desolate. Who are the desolate?

why do I think the verses "on the wings of abominations" means Babylon?

well it fits with these verses:

Zechariah 5

5 Then the angel who talked with me came out and said to me, “Lift your eyes now, and see what this is that goes forth.”
6 So I asked, “What is it?” And he said, “It is a basket[a] that is going forth.”
He also said, “This is their resemblance throughout the earth: 7 Here is a lead disc lifted up, and this is a woman sitting inside the basket”; 8 then he said, “This is Wickedness!” And he thrust her down into the basket, and threw the lead cover over its mouth. 9 Then I raised my eyes and looked, and there were two women, coming with the wind in their wings; for they had wings like the wings of a stork, and they lifted up the basket between earth and heaven.
10 So I said to the angel who talked with me, “Where are they carrying the basket?”
11 And he said to me, “To build a house for it in the land of Shinar;[c] when it is ready, the basket will be set there on its base.”

shinar is another name for Babylon and the verses before talks about the curse upon the world, which would be desolate, as the world consummates their affair with the Whore.

This does not make sense. The desolation happens in the temple. Not in the world. Sacrifice and offering takes place in the temple. One would make an end of this sacrifice by desoating the tmeple. As Antiochus epiphanies did when he sacrificed a pig (considered unclean to all jews) in the holie of holies. This would be an abvomination.

As I have said before. Daniel was praying for his people. WHo had sinned against God. and because of their sin was taken by babylon according to the prophesy of Jeremiah. This captivitie was to be 70 years. The 70 years was almost up. Daniel knew it. And he also knew his people were still in sin, and had not repented, He was making a mediatory prayer for God concerning his people. How people can make this prophesy to be concerning the world. and the church and not Daniels blood people (Israel) is beyond me

Daniel 9

4 And I prayed to the LORD my God, and made confession, and said, “O Lord, great and awesome God, who keeps His covenant and mercy with those who love Him, and with those who keep His commandments, 5 we have sinned and committed iniquity, we have done wickedly and rebelled, even by departing from Your precepts and Your judgments. 6 Neither have we heeded Your servants the prophets, who spoke in Your name to our kings and our princes, to our fathers and all the people of the land. 7 O Lord, righteousness belongs to You, but to us shame of face, as it is this day—to the men of Judah, to the inhabitants of Jerusalem and all Israel, those near and those far off in all the countries to which You have driven them, because of the unfaithfulness which they have committed against You.

This is the "WHO" Daniel was praying for. We shoul not twist this and make it mean the churhc or the world. Daniel was praying for HIS PEOPLE. No one else.

Gabriels answer was concerning this prayer. Which means gabriels answer was concerning Daniels people. no one else. __________________
Eternally Grateful for the grace God has shown a wretched soul such as myself.

Rom 8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus,

 

[AnandaHya]

WHO is Daniel's people? are they not GOD"S people?

sorry EG that doesn't make sense.

the woman in Revelation's is not the church but ZION. there is prophecies in the OT that talk about her.

Isaiah 66:6-9

New King James Version (NKJV)

6 The sound of noise from the city!
A voice from the temple!
The voice of the LORD,
Who fully repays His enemies!
7 “ Before she was in labor, she gave birth;
Before her pain came,
She delivered a male child.
8 Who has heard such a thing?
Who has seen such things?
Shall the earth be made to give birth in one day?
Or shall a nation be born at once?
For as soon as Zion was in labor,
She gave birth to her children.
9 Shall I bring to the time of birth, and not cause delivery?” says the LORD.

“ Shall I who cause delivery shut up the womb?” says your God.


gotta go and spend time with the family.

you guys be nice and behave,discuss scripture or have some tea or something harder to bite if your mouth is full...

 

[BlueLagoon]

so are you postmil then? lol unless there is another one I don't know about.

you may join Abiding and me for tea if you like, lol

mmm no scriptures two pages i'll go back further and see if I can find something....

Hey sister how ya doin'?

Hi Ananda, I prefer no "title" per say...but if you are asking if I believe in a future Kingdom on earth upon Jesus ' return, at this point I would say yes. Stranglove wanted my input on post #340 something, I think. Will take a closer look later. If an amillenialist can build a strong case in their belief that satan is bound now, I would take a closer look at it, but for now I cannot logically see that as the current situation.
Thanks for the tea invite...

 

[eternally-gratefull]

WHO is Daniel's people? are they not GOD"S people?

sorry EG that doesn't make sense.

You mean the people who were comiting harlotry with other Gods. the reason they were under Babylonian captivity? Yes they are Gods people. I don't understand your comment.

the woman in Revelation's is not the church but ZION. there is prophecies in the OT that talk about her.

Isaiah 66:6-9

New King James Version (NKJV)

6 The sound of noise from the city!
A voice from the temple!
The voice of the LORD,
Who fully repays His enemies!
7 “ Before she was in labor, she gave birth;
Before her pain came,
She delivered a male child.
8 Who has heard such a thing?
Who has seen such things?
Shall the earth be made to give birth in one day?
Or shall a nation be born at once?
For as soon as Zion was in labor,
She gave birth to her children.
9 Shall I bring to the time of birth, and not cause delivery?” says the LORD.

“ Shall I who cause delivery shut up the womb?” says your God.


gotta go and spend time with the family.

you guys be nice and behave,discuss scripture or have some tea or something harder to bite if your mouth is full...

You could not have read what I posted. Nothing you say makes sense as to what I posted. was you refuting it? Agreeing?? Zion is Israel.

 

[AnandaHya]

You mean the people who were comiting harlotry with other Gods. the reason they were under Babylonian captivity? Yes they are Gods people. I don't understand your comment.



You could not have read what I posted. Nothing you say makes sense as to what I posted. was you refuting it? Agreeing?? Zion is Israel.

I am saying I believe the WOMAN being persecuted by the Dragon/Satan is Zion. so I don't agree with that premise that the woman in Revelation is the church because the church is Jesus Bride not His mother.

it doesn't make sense because you don't agree with me. Take a few steps back and see it how I do, you still may decide not to agree with me but lol I don't think it makes sense to say that the Church is both Jesus mother and His bride.

Revelations 12
13 Now when the dragon saw that he had been cast to the earth, he persecuted the woman who gave birth to the male Child. 14 But the woman was given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness to her place, where she is nourished for a time and times and half a time, from the presence of the serpent. 15 So the serpent spewed water out of his mouth like a flood after the woman, that he might cause her to be carried away by the flood. 16 But the earth helped the woman, and the earth opened its mouth and swallowed up the flood which the dragon had spewed out of his mouth. 17 And the dragon was enraged with the woman, and he went to make war with the rest of her offspring, who keep the commandments of God and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.[b]

Note two things: 1 the woman is both mother to the Male Child and those who keep the testimony of Jesus Christ.

2. it would make more sense that the Woman be Zion then the Church

3. reread the prophecy I posted from the OT about the Woman who is identified as Zion who is foretold to give Birth to this Male child, it is a messianiah prophecy.

4. did you notice the reference to the Flood that echoes Daniel 9 prophecy? mmmm

5. Notice how it then goes to talk about BABLYON, The Whore?

lets look at the cooresponding verses in Daniel...

26 “ And after the sixty-two weeks
Messiah shall be cut off, but not for Himself;
And the people of the prince who is to come
Shall destroy the city and the sanctuary.
The end of it shall be with a flood,
And till the end of the war desolations are determined.
do you understand the parallelism with Rev 12?

27 Then he shall confirm a covenant with many for one week;
But in the middle of the week
He shall bring an end to sacrifice and offering.
Again what is this about a NEW Covenant that Hebrew refers to? about how Jesus is the END of animal Sacrifice and offerings?

And on the wing of abominations shall be one who makes desolate,
Even until the consummation, which is determined, (consummation/ whoring with Babylon)
Is poured out on the desolate.”

Revelations 14 8 And another angel followed, saying, “Babylon[f] is fallen, is fallen, that great city, because she has made all nations drink of the wine of the wrath of her fornication.”

why do you think that the woman spoken of in Revelations 12 is the church? when it says in Revelations 21 and other places in the NT that the Bride is the Church?