Amillennialism

[AnandaHya]

reread my comment forgot to type a few words lol.

I believe Daniel's PEOPLE he is praying for are the same as GOD's People,

the same as the PEOPLE who inherit the PROMISE made to Abraham: those who believe in the name of Jesus Christ.

God's Promise made to THE Seed not seeds. Zion is the MOTHER to JESUS who allows others to become adopted sons and daughters.

the world is going through birth pangs. See again Matthew 24 when it talks about the end of the AGE, which a period of grace before judgment
which is the time people will stop being added to the Church because the gospel has been preached to ALL nations either by human or angelic voices
and when Jesus starts judging people according to the testimony and their own words and actions in response to the Gospel message.

there are 4 responses. see the parable of the seeds: Satan steals the seed, stubborn prideful heart is to rocky for the seed to grow but they seem to be enthusiastic for a while but have no roots, cares of the world choke out God's words in a double-minded heart, or a humble contrite faithful heart that bears much fruit in Christ.

I'll give you reasons why I believe Satan is bound now but his fallen angels are not when I get a chance.

why does no one think Satan's angel are not able to cause problems without Satan being free? who does Jesus say is the strong man who is bound?

can Congress do anything even if the President is absent? or Can the English parliment do anything without the Queen?

 

[AnandaHya]

who do you think is the strong man mentioned below?

Mark 3

20 Then the multitude came together again, so that they could not so much as eat bread. 21 But when His own people heard about this, they went out to lay hold of Him, for they said, “He is out of His mind.”
22 And the scribes who came down from Jerusalem said, “He has Beelzebub,” and, “By the ruler of the demons He casts out demons.”
23 So He called them to Himself and said to them in parables: “How can Satan cast out Satan? 24 If a kingdom is divided against itself, that kingdom cannot stand. 25 And if a house is divided against itself, that house cannot stand. 26 And if Satan has risen up against himself, and is divided, he cannot stand, but has an end. 27 No one can enter a strong man’s house and plunder his goods, unless he first binds the strong man. And then he will plunder his house.

I believe Jesus bound Satan when He defeated him in the desert. Satan was bound but he still had strongholds in the mind of people and still had demons loose to deceive people. Satan is NOT the only one named as a deceiver and the Bible says the SPIRITS of AntiChrists.

Satan is NOT God and can NOT be everywhere at once and his demons are not completely under his control because they do not all worship him but obey out of fear, like a bully that coerces or bribes others into doing his will.

 

[zone]

n

one of the things people who support the double dispensationist position (i'm not referring to exclusively you EG when I say this) is that they say that Jesus did not fulfill the feast of tabernacle.

After some research and prayer I have to disagree with them.

I have alluded in the above post that Jesus is the substance of the shadow that the feast of tabernacle is suppose to remind the Jewish people of. they are suppose to remember how God gave them manna in the deserts, Jesus says HE is the true manna from Heaven and if you eat of His bread (which is His Words) you will not be hungry again. Also the feast of tabernacle is to remember when Moses struck a rock and water came flowing from it which alludes to when Jesus was struck on the cross and after His ascension sends forth LIVING Water which is His Holy Spirit.

truthfully this topic has not been a key cornerstone of my beliefs since I believe on taking one day at a time and not trying to foretell the future beyond what God wants me to do in the present in preparation for it.

However I'm reminded of these verses:

Hebrews 4:12
For the word of God is living and powerful, and sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing even to the division of soul and spirit, and of joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.

therefore I would vocalize and discuss my findings and discover why we are not in agreement over certain key intepertations of scripture and prophecy. if it can be done in a respectful and rational manner.

Again I state my premises that

1. all OT prophecies have been either
a. fulfilled through Jesus or
b. stated again in the book of Revelations

2. Amillenianism is logical and Bibilically based upon the symbolism of numbers in the Jewish traditions concerning prophecy and Jesus and His disciples own words about the Kingdom of God is at hand.

3. a. that between when the law was given to Moses until Jesus sent His Holy Spirit during Pentecost is considered an Age

b. and we now live in a NEW Age which is called TODAY

c. and a new covenant which replaces the one made with Moses who was given the LAW

d. and fulfills the Promise given to both Abraham and Eve about the Seed who would crush serpents and young lions under His feet

e. and Heaven is the promise land and the promised Rest, not physical Canaan though Canaan is used as a symbol to foreshadow on Earth what is true in Heaven. much like sacrificing Isaac foreshadow's Jesus' death on the cross.


anyways this is a chart of the two positions I have heard explained so far....

ananda,
if i am not mistaken
the chart is Kim Riddlebarger's.
please cite your sources particularly his, as the links will help others arrive at the conclusions you have: since someone provided the sources you are now enjoying.
it's always helpful to remember, if not document how we got to where we are now, from where we once were.

these men and others have laboured many years in Christ and deserve credit for their work, whenever you use it.
ty

 

[Fencepost]

God's Covenant with Abraham

T. Pierce Brown


When one is cutting down a tree, it is not necessary to cut off each twig or branch. If one cuts it off at the base, or uproots it, the tree is down. However, there are values in cutting it up in smaller pieces for other purposes. The same is true with any false doctrine. For example, there are numerous verses in the Bible that show the falsity of premillennialism. Any one of them cuts it off at the roots. When a doctrine is based upon the idea that the kingdom that God promised has not yet been established, but God’s Word plainly teaches that it has, we need go no farther to show that the doctrine is false. Mark 9:1 says, “And he said unto them, Verily I say unto you, There are some of them that stand by, who shall in no wise taste of death, till they see the kingdom of God come with power.”

Wasn't that fulfilled at pentecost?

 

[zone]

Perhaps you will learn about these kind of individuals someday and the what the mood of God is toward them. Feeling good or not has nothing to do with it. This poster rejects the brethren and would continue to do so because he not only rejects certain doctrine of eschatology but the doctrine of the church and assembling with other believers that put themselves under the teaching of a pastor-teacher that is raised up of God. He rejects those that have been raised up of God for the church and would discourage others from assembling under the teaching of scripture that abides in the apostle's doctrine. This is why I will have nothing to do with them and if you can not discern or identify them, then you have a problem. They dishonor the head of the body, therefore dishonor the body of Christ that we are members one of another.

how presumptuous you have become.
and how intolerant of other MAINLINE ESCHATOLOGICALTEACHINGS (in fact the only orthodox view is amillennialism)....only christian zionist evangelicals hold to that RUBBISH of TWO COVENANTS.

as a pretribulational premillennialist dispensational scofieldian, you say we are to uphold "men of God" raised up like this man?:

The Houston Chronicle article further reported:

“John Hagee, fundamentalist pastor from San Antonio and friend of Israel, is truly a strange fish. ... The man has a mission. He’s out to attack anti-Semitism. He also believes that Jews can come to God without going through Jesus Christ.”10
​

The Houston newspaper then quoted Hagee’s own shocking words: “I’m not trying to convert the Jewish people to the Christian faith.”
And further revealed:

“In fact, trying to convert Jews is a ‘waste of time,’ he said. ‘The Jewish person who has his roots in Judaism is not going to convert to Christianity. There is no form of Christian evangelism that has failed so miserably as evangelizing the Jewish people. They (already) have a faith structure.’ Everyone else, whether Buddhist or Baha’i, needs to believe in Jesus, he says. But not Jews. Jews already have a covenant with God that has never been replaced by Christianity, he says.”11
​

Hagee went on to tell the Houston reporter that Paul abandoned the idea of Jews knowing Christ when he went to the Gentiles. Jewish evangelism, both presently and in antiquity, is not a failure as Hagee stated but a huge success as many missions and missionaries can report
The Other Gospel of John Hagee

ANATHEMA

 

[Fencepost]

God's Covenant with Abraham

T. Pierce Brown

Wasn't God's covenant finshed when Christ said it is finished on the cross and He died went to hell got the keys to hell and death and rose the third day. This being affirmed by many died saints riseing from the dead. And raised all up in Abraham's Bosum.

 

[Red33]

n

ananda,
if i am not mistaken
the chart is Kim Riddlebarger's.
please cite your sources particularly his, as the links will help others arrive at the conclusions you have: since someone provided the sources you are now enjoying.
it's always helpful to remember, if not document how we got to where we are now, from where we once were.

these men and others have laboured many years in Christ and deserve credit for their work, whenever you use it.
ty

Just remember that it also applies to those like Scofield, Larkin, Pentecost, Wuest and many many others that you seem to give no credit but rather abhor because of your grievious deception in these matters.

 

[Fencepost]

Just remember that it also applies to those like Scofield, Larkin, Pentecost, Wuest and many many others that you seem to give no credit but rather abhor because of your grievious deception in these matters.

Hmm, didn't Jesus say where two or more are gathered in my name there I will be in the midst of them. Woohoo Praise Jesus!

 

[Abiding]

Just remember that it also applies to those like Scofield, Larkin, Pentecost, Wuest and many many others that you seem to give no credit but rather abhor because of your grievious deception in these matters.

pontificating present participle of pon·tif·i·cate (Verb) Express one's opinions in a way considered annoyingly pompous and dogmatic.

 

[zone]

i think He was bound but during the mass slaughter of the 2 world wars the pit was opened and now he works with the signs and wonders and prosperity is but a word away crowd. (they like to call it the latter rain) you know so that it might deceive even the elect if possible....

I'm mid trib leaning towards amillennial. lol though I didn't know the meaning of the terms till recently I believe rapture and resurrection will occur after some tribulation but before Ammagedeon and the final out pouring of God's wrath and complete destruction of the Earth and creation of new Earth and new Jerealselum.

that's true.
you've had some help.
and studied hard.

let's see what you say a little further along.

 

[zone]

nah, ignoring him would probably annoy him more. it does the kids I hung around that acted like him and my kids hate it when I ignore them but until they speak respectfully I just send them to their room. Don't see the point in rebuking him, sometimes negative attention is still attention and that is all some people want.

yes Doc that was a backhanded jab, I figure since you remind me of Zone I might as well treat you like I do her lol at least I haven't alluded to the idea that you two (doc and EG) might be in love or something...that's what had her annoyed with me last time....

i'm thinking this might not do anything but add fuel to the fire.... mmm, sometimes its nice to watch things burn, maybe it will cauterize the wound?

ok earthquakes? sun darkening? resurrection of the dead?

it happened when Jesus was cruxified and rose again....

Matthew 27:50-54
New King James Version (NKJV)
50 And Jesus cried out again with a loud voice, and yielded up His spirit.
51 Then, behold, the veil of the temple was torn in two from top to bottom; and the earth quaked, and the rocks were split, 52 and the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints who had fallen asleep were raised; 53 and coming out of the graves after His resurrection, they went into the holy city and appeared to many.
54 So when the centurion and those with him, who were guarding Jesus, saw the earthquake and the things that had happened, they feared greatly, saying, “Truly this was the Son of God!”


like I said how do you know Rev 6 has not been fulfilled?

well that didn't take long to throw me under the bus, did it ananda.
you showed up here a confused yakking charismatic channeling a jesus like other prophets.
things like animism, totally messed up over corith, and any other number of strange ideas.

i gave you the basics of the christian faith, fast-tracked you on tons of levels, linked you as i saw what you were studying: i taught and helped you while you opposed yourself (and me).

i did that because from the few first blasphemous posts you made the Spirit testified that you were to be led out of that mess you were in.

i predicted back then that you would repent privately (which you did, Praise God, it is His doing), but that you would then, instead of doing what christians who have been delivered are to do - TESTIFY, you'd sweep it under the rug, and claim the good doctrine you were absorbing was what you had always believed, and didn't that come true.

so, you go ahead and dis me again....toss me under the bus.

kinda right on schedule.

only thing is....you maybe should have talked to me first...because i know what comes next for you. i see it every day.in fact i see it already.

tata

 

[zone]

first I don't understand what you think the disciples are asking about when they say "when will this happen?" if it is not referring to the destruction of the temple that Jesus was talking about in verses 1 and 2.

but part is our different understanding of Daniel 9...



Daniel does NOT say the Future prince, but the PEOPLE of the future prince. there is a big difference. let us look at the key verse

Daniel 9
26 “ And after the sixty-two weeks
Messiah shall be cut off, but not for Himself; (Jesus cruxified)
And the people of the prince who is to come (romans and antichrist people)
Shall destroy the city and the sanctuary. (destruction of temple 70 AD)

The end of it shall be with a flood, (do you remember the verses in Revelation where Satan floods the woman and her children who have the testimony of Christ?)
And till the end of the war desolations are determined. (this would be Ammageddon)but the statement says the END of the War is determined meaning finding out who will win, this happened when Jesus defeated all powers and principalities at the cross


27 Then he shall confirm a covenant with many for one week; who is the HE?can God make more then one covenant? can He make it conditional?
But in the middle of the week
He shall bring an end to sacrifice and offering. Did not Jesus bring an end to sacrifice by giving HIS life as the only sacrifice needed?

And on the wing of abominations shall be one who makes desolate, sounds like the Whore Babylon
Even until the consummation, which is determined,
Is poured out on the desolate.”

why do I think the verses "on the wings of abominations" means Babylon?

well it fits with these verses:

Zechariah 5

5 Then the angel who talked with me came out and said to me, “Lift your eyes now, and see what this is that goes forth.”
6 So I asked, “What is it?” And he said, “It is a basket[a] that is going forth.”
He also said, “This is their resemblance throughout the earth: 7 Here is a lead disc lifted up, and this is a woman sitting inside the basket”; 8 then he said, “This is Wickedness!” And he thrust her down into the basket, and threw the lead cover over its mouth. 9 Then I raised my eyes and looked, and there were two women, coming with the wind in their wings; for they had wings like the wings of a stork, and they lifted up the basket between earth and heaven.
10 So I said to the angel who talked with me, “Where are they carrying the basket?”
11 And he said to me, “To build a house for it in the land of Shinar;[c] when it is ready, the basket will be set there on its base.”

shinar is another name for Babylon and the verses before talks about the curse upon the world, which would be desolate, as the world consummates their affair with the Whore.

let's talk about zechariah 5 ananda.
didn't know you were studying that.

what's your take on it?

 

[zone]

He's been rebuked, but it's good to see you come around just a little, even in your sarcasm. Someone who is of a heart that wants to know the things of God is one thing, but for someone to be intentionally controversial and stir up strife, in nothing less than a troublemaker that causes division and contentions among believers. Abiding, is that what you like to see promoted in the body of Christ as a believer? You and others have no problem accusing me of being harsh about this but do you refuse to see the strife and contention that is present? Personality rapport is getting along with others because you have something in common that you can attach yourself to with others, even if it is doctrine or likeminded understanding. There is nothing godly or sacred about that and it does not reveal true fellowship. A person who is hungry after the things of God receives the truth through grace and meekness because they are teachable and their heart is not hardened nor are they stiffnecked concerning the nature of God's goodness.

people who teach doctrine contrary to that taught by the apostles are the ones who cause divisions.
that would be dispensationalists (pretribbers esp) and charismatics.

that would be you. not doc.

 

[zone]

LOLZ!

Christians getting along with each other because of DOCTRINE is...erm.....not godly????!!!!

LOLZ AGAIN!!

ya.
5 sola covenant amils getting along is anathema to those guys.
you see doc...we have to SHUT UP at all costs because if too much true doctrine comes forward, they're faced with a choice: go deeper into denial or face up to a lifetime of wrong beliefs.

lots face up to it. and they testify...but some will never reconsider: too much invested.
the truth isn't as important as their ministries or past teachings.

 

[zone]

Good morning EG. I am not now nor ever will I be willing/content to exchange whatever semblance of integrity I might have in the Lord for the sake of any "friendship" with anybody. I will be honest here and say yes ..... there have been a few occasions on this thread where I am of the opinion that Strangelove could have tempered the point he was making in a gentler manner. Having said that, I'd be lying if I said that the same thing isn't true of yourself as well. Furthermore, I myself can be thrown into the mix also, if not on this thread, at least certainly on others. But like all imperfect creatures, we sometimes allow our passion to cloud our better judgement. I've avoided this thread for good reason. For many years, I was like most people that adhered to the dispensational teachings and more specifically, the pre-trib rapture. And as much as I'd like to be able to say that it is easy to discern and understand, the simple truth is that it is not. Arguments have been made to substantiate each point of view for centuries ........ and this debate will not go away until Christ does in fact return. I am personally convinced of the amillennialist position. And this I also believe ...... those not prepared to give up all, including their very life for the sake of their faith in Christ are those who would forsake it under severe tribulation. This I am also sure of. We are getting close to the return of Christ ..... and there will be only two advents.......with one already occurring. Even though we may not agree on all things biblical, I still consider you, Red and others my brothers in Christ. We all fall short and are in need of God's grace. Let each of us present our case and trust the Holy Spirit to convict where He will. However great our passion, it pales in comparison to what God can and will do. I love you EG.

an excellent example of someone testifying that they had to wrestle with wrong beliefs....and be willing to do so for the love of the truth.
LOVE YOU FES.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

reread my comment forgot to type a few words lol.

I believe Daniel's PEOPLE he is praying for are the same as GOD's People,

He prayed for HIS PEOPLE. WHo were sinning. and being punished. NO ONE ELSE. You can't take context of the passage and destroy it by making it be someone else.

the same as the PEOPLE who inherit the PROMISE made to Abraham: those who believe in the name of Jesus Christ.

This makes no sense. David was prying for God to show mercy on HIS PEOPLE. and let them go back to Jerusalem and restor the temple. No one in the church was promised this. so he could not have been praying about "ALL" people who recieve Christ (The messiah). The messiah was not even the topic of his prayer. It was showing mercy on a sinful people and allowing them to return to their land.

I can not twist scripture in the way your doing to get the conclusion you are making. I just can't do it.

God's Promise made to THE Seed not seeds. Zion is the MOTHER to JESUS who allows others to become adopted sons and daughters.

Um God promise of Christ was made to the SEEDS. not seed. It was not given just to Israel. It was given to all nations. "In you shall all the nations be blessed) this is seeds. not seed. Daniel wads NOT praying concerning this promise. He was praying concerning lev 26 and mosaic law. in which his people were being punished Lev 26: 28-39

the world is going through birth pangs. See again Matthew 24 when it talks about the end of the AGE, which a period of grace before judgment

No disagreement here

which is the time people will stop being added to the Church because the gospel has been preached to ALL nations either by human or angelic voices

Actually it is a time of the falling away. It is not because the gospel will not go out. it is that no one wants to hear the gospel anymore. The church has faded into oblivian like the jews did. Just all Paul said they would in Romans 11.

and when Jesus starts judging people according to the testimony and their own words and actions in response to the Gospel message.

A time of testing yes.

there are 4 responses. see the parable of the seeds: Satan steals the seed, stubborn prideful heart is to rocky for the seed to grow but they seem to be enthusiastic for a while but have no roots, cares of the world choke out God's words in a double-minded heart, or a humble contrite faithful heart that bears much fruit in Christ.

Do not see what this has to do with end times, or daniel 9. Those things have been going on since pentecost. It will not be something new

I'll give you reasons why I believe Satan is bound now but his fallen angels are not when I get a chance.

why does no one think Satan's angel are not able to cause problems without Satan being free? who does Jesus say is the strong man who is bound?

What happens to an army when you remove the commander? It falls apart. It is not that they will not be able to do stuff. it is that their power will be limited greatly. Satan is their power. As Christ is ours. Remove Christ and we would be detroyed. Remove satan, and well you get the picture.

can Congress do anything even if the President is absent? or Can the English parliment do anything without the Queen?

The president does not give congress its power. the people do. Not a good example. Try again

 

[zone]

For some your post may be compelling, but not to me for there is no compromise nor is there any 'we agree to disagree'. That is foolishness and Christ does not have to come to confirm what the scriptures teach. Do you hope that the way of salvation that you believed and have trusted God for, is the right salvation through His Son, or is another way possible? Does Christ have to come back again to confirm that He judged and paid for sin through His death and the shedding of His blood the first time He came? NO! We don't compromise salvation for it is by grace through faith because of the cross, nor do we compromise the doctrine and mystery of Christ and the church.

Our hope is based on the evidence and trustworthiness of the scriptures that produce in us the substance of faith. The inspiration of truth in scripture is not given as a divided truth to be believed with our own understanding that results in double-mindedness, but has been given to promote and give believers one faith and one hope of our calling. There is no compromise in that, only oneness as likeminded believers that believe in one salvation and one Lord who gives it, to one one body of Christ made of many members, who have the same Spirit.

1Cor 1:10Now I beseech you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye all speak the same thing, and that there be no divisions among you; but that ye be perfectly joined together in the same mind and in the same judgment.

THE CHURCH HASN'T BEEN A MYSTERY FOR 1900 YEARS WHEN PAUL REVEALED IT WAS JEW AND GENTILE IN EPHESIANS. something your dispies deny. and so you deny what Christ has done.

PRETRIB RAPTURE IS CHILDISH AND THERE WILL BE NO AGREEING TO DISAGREE FROM ME.

you're on the wrong foundation.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

who do you think is the strong man mentioned below?

Mark 3

20 Then the multitude came together again, so that they could not so much as eat bread. 21 But when His own people heard about this, they went out to lay hold of Him, for they said, “He is out of His mind.”
22 And the scribes who came down from Jerusalem said, “He has Beelzebub,” and, “By the ruler of the demons He casts out demons.”
23 So He called them to Himself and said to them in parables: “How can Satan cast out Satan? 24 If a kingdom is divided against itself, that kingdom cannot stand. 25 And if a house is divided against itself, that house cannot stand. 26 And if Satan has risen up against himself, and is divided, he cannot stand, but has an end. 27 No one can enter a strong man’s house and plunder his goods, unless he first binds the strong man. And then he will plunder his house.

I believe Jesus bound Satan when He defeated him in the desert. Satan was bound but he still had strongholds in the mind of people and still had demons loose to deceive people. Satan is NOT the only one named as a deceiver and the Bible says the SPIRITS of AntiChrists.

Satan is NOT God and can NOT be everywhere at once and his demons are not completely under his control because they do not all worship him but obey out of fear, like a bully that coerces or bribes others into doing his will.

1. Satan is NOT SHUT UP. He can still speak.
2. Scripture says our fight is not against flesh and blood, but against principalities and powers of the heavenles. Satan is still in control.
3. When satan is bound. He will have zero power. zero influence. and zero contact which his army. He will be SHUT UP

 

[zone]

You can eat and digest whatever doctrine you want for it will digest in your own stomach. We have a mandate to also follow the apostles' doctrine that has been laid out in the epistles (and the book of Revelation) that was written to the many churches and members of the body of Christ for the entire church age that will end at the rapture of the church just prior to the great tribulation coming upon the earth. Then when the great tribulation period starts all bets are off because the church will be out of here, sealed and delivered. You can put that in one of your vacancy slots.

too bad you're not teaching the apostle's doctrine.
you're teaching televangelist pretrib BUNK.

 

[Strangelove]

3. When satan is bound. He will have zero power. zero influence. and zero contact which his army. He will be SHUT UP

So in your millenial kingdom there will be no sinners at all?

Correct?