And the SMOKE of their torment...No eternal damnation for anyone, except the Devil

[Lucy-Pevensie]

By a directive from heaven, I mean the word of God says that we are to give a defense of the faith that is in us and that the Bible is useful for correction and rebuking, among other things. I’m a preacher, teacher, and prophet, but above all I’m just a child of God.

Why are you so confrontational on this point?

Confrontational eh?
Do you really imagine you are defending the faith with this? Au contraire. You are the challenger.

You appear determined to shoehorn a problematic, fringe doctrine into established Christianity. I'm not buying it. Very few are.
You would do better to admit you've adopted an unorthodox view and simply say you believe it and it's worthy of consideration.
Instead of trying to turn the whole church upside down.

 

[Runningman]

Death penalty not 10 years penalty not eternal penalty

we not make bible to fit into doctrine

must all the way around

doctrine follow the bible

A death penalty is a punishment that lasts forever. The Bible plainly states the date of the unrighteous is death.

Do you agree with these verses?

Matthew 10:28
28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

Ezekiel 18:20
20 The soul that sinneth, it shall die.

Romans 6:23
23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

 

[HeIsHere]

They are raised perishable and then perish in the 2nd death. You can't seem to make your mind up on this. Curious.

What is imperishable is the Word of God, and this indwells believers. Non-
believers do not have this. They perish, just as multiple Scriptures attest.

And "perish" has been shown to not mean annihilate, so there is that.

 

[HeIsHere]

What’s your problem with that?

Let's clarify, are you saying you have the gift of prophecy (1 Cor 14) or are you saying you have been given some private revelation?

 

[Runningman]

Confrontational eh?
Do you really imagine you are defending the faith with this? Au contraire. You are the challenger.

You appear determined to shoehorn a problematic, fringe doctrine into established Christianity. I'm not buying it. Very few are.
You would do better to admit you've adopted an unorthodox view and simply say you believe it and it's worthy of consideration.
Instead of trying to turn the whole church upside down.

You talk about me in such disparaging terms but are total unable to prove using scripture that eternal torment of all unsaved is true.

You know good and well if you eternal tormentors had proof you would be flaunting it around everywhere. Instead there’s like two verses that don’t even claim what others are claiming they say.

That being the because, doesn’t that most of the church is wrong on this particular point? Yes. I’m here to turn the church right side up.

 

[Runningman]

Let's clarify, are you saying you have the gift of prophecy (1 Cor 14) or are you saying you have been given some private revelation?

I have the gift of prophecy per 1 Corinthians 14.

Regarding eternal torment being a false doctrine, I don’t need to employ my prophetic gift to prove that. The Bible confirms that the fate of the unsaved is destruction, death.

You said you have a problem. What’s your problem?

 

[Mem]

FreeGrace2 said:
Do you think John was using "the same poetic device" when He wrote Rev 20:10, or Jesus, when He said Matt 25:46?

How about very nearly impossible?

Considering we are at the disposal of the translators' use of their own literary device to translate any possible use of original authors' poetic device, it seems to me the possibility would be significantly higher than nearly or even hardly impossible.

 

[Mem]

Based on scripture, it doesn't sound like those outside are non-existent.

Rev 22
4 ‘Blessed are those who wash their robes, that they may have the right to the tree of life and may go through the gates
into the city.
15 Outside are the dogs, those who practise magic arts, the sexually immoral, the murderers, the idolaters and everyone
who loves and practises falsehood.

Looking at the phrase, "Blessed are," the tense is unclear to me, whether this particular concept is being spoken of in future tense although it clearly signifies future consequence.

 

[Mem]

Not really. In Job, we see that Satan had the power to create a wind strong enough to collapse a building where ALL of Job's children were attending, and were killed. And Satan killed ALL of Job's cattle, etc, basically all his wealth.

And then, Satan had the power over physiology, to give Job the worst case ever of full body shingles, possibly. Or at least, full body boils.

I qualified my initial comment to exclude manipulating things already in existence from the definition of creation. I can create a wind also, with a fan, and Edison created light. Satan might be a bit more crafty in his 'creations' tho.

 

[Mem]

And where do we see God putting something out of existence (oblivion, nothingness) in the spiritual world in scripture to support your assertion?

Forgive my laziness in retrieving examples, especially in caution that opposition may not agree even for the extra effort but, there is scripture speaking to something like, paraphrasing of course, 'you will look for the wicked, and his place will not be found." It may even say, "there's no place for him,' which would be more supportive of my position, but again, I'm going only by the memory of how I've read it.

 

[HeIsHere]

I have the gift of prophecy per 1 Corinthians 14.

Regarding eternal torment being a false doctrine, I don’t need to employ my prophetic gift to prove that. The Bible confirms that the fate of the unsaved is destruction, death.

You said you have a problem. What’s your problem?

I understand now, I thought it was a private revelation. I am having trouble keeping up!

I will say this much, I agree, the understanding of words like "aionios" in context according to the Greek meaning,> NOT Greek to English does not mean "unending in time, forever" but rather depending on the context has to do with an "age" or "ainois zoe" referring to quality of life.

The problem with the annihiliation/extinction doctrine is that "perish, death, destruct" according to the best understanding of the semantic domain of the words in Greek do not mean to annihilate, as in to cease to exist, so this doctrine has a huge problem.

We cannot change the meaning of words to build a doctrine. And I will add you have not addressed this once.

Place annihilate/extinct in places where destroyed or perish is used and you will the absurdity of it

And no one pours new wine into old wineskins. Otherwise, the new wine will burst the wineskins, and it will be spilled and the wineskins will be extinct.
Luke 5:37

 

[Magenta]

And "perish" has been shown to not mean annihilate, so there is that.

The Greek word apollumi (Strong's #622) means to destroy, destroy utterly, destroy to the uttermost.

Course we have people who say things like sleep is a euphemism for watchful wakefulness.

And others who will say they don't understand Greek; do they refuse to learn even one word?

Or that the destruction of the wicked is not Biblical when it is articulated a multitude of times, from beginning to end.

That's why studying for yourself is important. Destroy or destruction is the English word used in some places also.

Pretending as some do that death is nothing to fear, and not even punishment, is what is not Biblical.

Apollumi: Strongs Concordance # 622

 

[Mem]

yes this is what i have said here before in these threads. annihilationism is atheist's paradise.

they would love nothing more than for that to be true. annihilationism is kind of saying atheist's view of the afterlife is correct, except for the part where they are resurrected and permanently killed. but the end result is the same, non-existance. same as before you were born. ( i do wonder about this, maybe we just dont remember before our birth? anyone got verses about this? )

this also makes our evangelism kind of half-hearted id say. i dont understand why jehovah's witnesses are so keen on evangelizing when there really is no danger for the unsaved. sure they'll die, but so what? im not afraid of eternal non-existence. bring it on.

I've seen this argument from multiple sources so I will take the liberty to address it with the convenience of this post.
This argument suggests that a torturous forever afterlife will deter nonbelievers more readily than the more so-called 'humane' form of judgment that is being proposed. However, the torturous afterlife has been endorsed for as far back as the origins of Catholicism and, well, look around. No one seems to be worried about eternal torture either.

 

[Runningman]

I understand now, I thought it was a private revelation. I am having trouble keeping up!

I will say this much, I agree, the understanding of words like "aionios" in context according to the Greek meaning,> NOT Greek to English does not mean "unending in time, forever" but rather depending on the context has to do with an "age" or "ainois zoe" referring to quality of life.

The problem with the annihiliation/extinction doctrine is that "perish, death, destruct" according to the best understanding of the semantic domain of the words in Greek do not mean to annihilate, as in to cease to exist, so this doctrine has a huge problem.

We cannot change the meaning of words to build a doctrine. And I will add you have not addressed this once.

Place annihilate/extinct in places where destroyed or perish is used and you will the absurdity of it

And no one pours new wine into old wineskins. Otherwise, the new wine will burst the wineskins, and it will be spilled and the wineskins will be extinct.
Luke 5:37

I wouldn’t call myself an annihilationist personally. Annihilationism is actually the name of a specific doctrine that isn’t the same as someone who is a conditional immortalist. I believe immortality is conditional upon God’s gift.

I am quite a literalist on the topic of being saved versus unsaved. The Bible says only those who place their faith in Christ will have a body, soul, and spirit that lives forever. Perhaps we agree on that much, but the opposite must be true too.

The unsaved will not life forever with a body, soul, and spirit. Sure enough the Bible agrees with that very logical conclusion. Jesus and the apostles taught that the unsaved are destroyed. Sometimes they said they perish or are put to death, but the end result is the same.

The biggest problems I see with the eternal torment of all unsaved people is that the Bible just doesn’t say that anywhere. People often quote Revelation 20:10 as proof, but then again it only references three persons in that verse, not all unsaved people. So I’m forced to conclude Revelation 20:10 does not apply to all nor am I inclined to assume it does.

Matthew 25:46 is often quoted too, but that doesn’t mesh with the body of scriptures on the topic. “Everlasting punishment” being eternal conscious torment isn’t stated anywhere in the Bible for all unsaved, however, death of the unsaved is the punishment God metes out to those thrown into the lake of fire.

In Matt 25:46, the word punishment is a singular noun, meaning it’s one thing. It isn’t a verb or an adjective like “punishing.” So just based on my knowledge of the Bible and English grammar, the everlasting punishment is death.

 

[Magenta]

I've seen this argument from multiple sources so I will take the liberty to address it with the convenience of this post.
This argument suggests that a torturous forever afterlife will deter nonbelievers more readily than the more so-called 'humane' form of judgment that is being proposed. However, the torturous afterlife has been endorsed for as far back as the origins of Catholicism and, well, look around. No one seems to be worried about eternal torture either.

I don't know why Christians believe what atheists and other non-believers say above what Scripture says. Hmmm, yes, perplexing

 

[FreeGrace2]

FreeGrace2 said:
Sure does in Rev 20:10. And Matt 25:46 says the punishment is eternal. Punishment requires consciousness.

How do you punish a comatose person?

It’s your assumption those verses apply to all unsaved people.

Your assumption that annihilation begins AFTER the devil gets thrown into the LOF is a HUGE assumption.

Technically you’re adding to the book of Revelation by continuing to say Rev 20:10 applies to more than three person, but I doubt you care about that.

I don't care what you think I care about. The natural flow of the book is that the attendees of the GWT judgment will get just what the beat, FP and the devil get.

And why wouldn't they, since Matt 25:46 teaches that all unbelievers will receive an eternal punishment.

But, of course, you think a non-entity can be punished.

In Matthew 25:46 the punishment isn’t continuous.

Eternal isn't a point in time.

The punishment has an eternal effect though.

The ONLY WAY it can is if the one being punished is THERE to experience it. But, of course, you think a non-entity can be punished.

The eternal effect of the punishment is death. Which is what happens in the lake of fire.

So close, but yet, so far.

There will be an eternal conscious experience of death. I know that boggles your mind.

The LOF is the second death for unbelievers. Their bodies will die twice. Very clear, very simple. All Bible.

 

[HeIsHere]

The Greek word apollumi (Strong's #622) means to destroy, destroy utterly, destroy to the uttermost.

Yeah, I can crash my car so that it is completely destroyed but it still exists, it still has molecules.

Let's see how this works...
And no one pours new wine into old wineskins. Otherwise, the new wine will burst the wineskins, and it will be spilled and the wineskins will be extinct.
Luke 5:37

Or what woman who has ten drachmas, if she annihilates one drachma, does not light a lamp and sweep the house and search carefully until she finds it?
Luke 15:8

Let's continue on...

Luke 17:27: "flood came, and annihilated them all."
Luke 17:29: "from heaven, and annihilated them all."
Luke 17:33: "shall seek to save his life shall annihilate it; and whosoever"
Luke 17:33: "shall annihilate it; and whosoever shall annihilate his life shall preserve"
Luke 19:10: "to seek and to save that which was extinct."
Luke 19:47: "the chief of the people sought to annihilate him,"
Luke 20:16: "He shall come and annihilate these husbandmen, and shall give the"
Luke 21:18: "of your head anihilate."
John 3:15: "in him should not annihilate, but have eternal life."
John 3:16: "in him should not annihilate, but have everlasting life."
John 6:12: "that remain, that nothing be extinct."
John 6:27: "not for the meat which annihalited, but for that meat which endureth unto"
John 6:39: "he hath given me I should annihilate nothing, but should raise it up again"
John 10:10: "and to kill, and to annihilate: I am come that they might have"
John 10:28: "life; and they shall never be annihilated neither"
John 11:50: "that the whole nation annihilate not."
John 12:25: "He that loveth his life shall annihilate it; and he that hateth his"
John 17:12: "none of them is annihilate, but the son of perdition;"
John 18:9: "thou gavest me have I annihilated none."
John 18:14: "it was expedient that one man should die for the people."
Acts 5:37: "after him: he also annihilated; and all, even as many as obeyed"
2 Thessalonians 2:10: "deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that are annihilated; because they received not"

 

[Mem]

I don't know why Christians believe what atheists and other non-believers say above what Scripture says. Hmmm, yes, perplexing

It is too often used to suggest an illogical conclusion that, if atheists believe it, then everyone that believes it must be as good as an atheist, or something like that. But it only amounts to outright dishonesty.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Forgive my laziness in retrieving examples, especially in caution that opposition may not agree even for the extra effort but, there is scripture speaking to something like, paraphrasing of course, 'you will look for the wicked, and his place will not be found." It may even say, "there's no place for him,' which would be more supportive of my position, but again, I'm going only by the memory of how I've read it.

Maybe it just hasn't occurred to you, but your paraphrased phrase easily refers to the fact that a dead person is no longer 'hanging around', like living people are.

What do you think "his place" refers to? It would be his place in society, where he was while living. So your verse doesn't support annihilation at all.

 

[Magenta]

Let's see how this works...
And no one pours new wine into old wineskins. Otherwise, the new wine will burst the wineskins, and it will be spilled and the wineskins will be extinct.
Luke 5:37

Look at the interlinear please.

https://biblehub.com/interlinear/luke/5-37.htm

Very last word = apollumi, is destroyed.

Luke 17:27: "flood came, and annihilated them all." Destroyed all.

I am not going to go through each one. They say destroyed. What is your point?