ANIMAL SACRIFICES to resume FOR US in the future!

[BibleGuy]

So where in the Greek is the word “ready?” I posted my exegesis of the Greek, which you passed over. Too hard for you? Or the Greek doesn’t say what you want it to say? Let’s look at the actual words in Greek. For starters, the word “ready” just is NOT in the text, nor even implied. Instead a Perfect Past verb. I assume you know nothing about grammar, but Perfect Past means “completed in the past.” In English, it requires the helping verb “have” + the past participle “have made obsolete.”

ἐν τῷ λέγειν Καινὴν πεπαλαίωκεν τὴν πρώτην, τὸ δὲ παλαιούμενον καὶ γηράσκον ἐγγὺς ἀφανισμοῦ."

The NLT does capture a bit of the tense in the first part of the verse, which is so important for the exegesis of this verse

"When God speaks of a “new” covenant, it means he has made the first one obsolete. It is now out of date and will soon disappear." Hebrews 8:13 NLT

πεπαλαίωκεν - (pepalaioken) παλαιόω Perfect Indicative Active 3rd Person Singular - to declare or treat as old or obsolete. (the subject of this verb, which is not written, is God who is the subject of the quote from Jeremiah 31.) Perfect implies a completed action in the past, with consequences in the present. Legally, the person who made a covenant or testament could change or annul it. According to Hebrews, God established the first covenant, and he has replaced it with a new one. He is the speaker of the oracle in Jeremiah 31, (quoted after v. 13), thus the one who called the new covenant "new."

It may be hard for you to understand, but I laid it all out for you. In fact, I will do the word for word translation of the first part, which you so totally changed and mangled. No ready!

ἐv........τῷ λέγειν Καινὴν...πεπαλαίωκεν .....τὴν πρώτην
“when the to say new, has been completed/destroyed, the first.”

Yep, Greek is very convoluted, and Hebrews and the writings of Luke are very difficult Greek although Hebrews is the most difficult. (Other than the LXX!). So, which has been destroyed, the new or the first (old)? Obviously the old, the first has been destroyed. And the New is what we live under.

So, the nominative or subject is understood to be God. When “God” speaks of the New (Covenant), the first has been completed or destroyed.

τὸ δὲ παλαιούμενον καὶ γηράσκον ἐγγὺς ἀφανισμοῦ."
the and being very old and grows old near destruction.

Best to say, “and the being old (παλαιούμενον is an adjectival participle, and the τὸ or “the” goods with it) grow near or imminently of destruction. (ἀφανισμοῦ is in the gentive, so it is acceptable to add the word “of”).

So probably a close interpretation of the Greek is NLT.

When God speaks of a “new” covenant, it meanshe has made the first one obsolete. It is now out of date and will soon disappear." Hebrews 8:13 NLT

Or for that matter, any other translation from the KJV up to NET. Not one says “ready”. The Old Covenant is complete, destroyed, annihilated!

Please talk about the Greek words, instead of making up words to fit your doctrine. In this case, what you have done is made the words of the Bible into outright heresy, by just picking and choosing words at random, that support your completely wrong eschatology.

You can post lies and made up stuff all you want, but there are many on this forum with the wisdom to discredit you, using the Bible. My advice is to just leave, because with your appalling lack of knowledge of the Bible, you have lost already!

Looks like you still missed my point.

You asked: "So where in the Greek is the word 'ready?' "

My response: Of course, I refer to G1451. The Old Covenant is READY (Gr. "engoos", G1451, Heb. 8:13) to pass away, thereby confirming that it had NOT yet passed away as of the New-Covenant-era time of the writing of the book of Hebrews.

Again, we AGREE that the Old Covenant has been made obsolete.

But EVEN YOU evidently agree that it will "soon disappear" (Heb. 8:13 NLT), which you quoted.

So then, if it will SOON DISAPPEAR, then it is NECESSARILY the case that it did NOT yet disappear as of the New-Covenant-era time of the writing of the book of Hebrews.

It NECESSARILY follows that the Old Covenant and New Covenant function SIMULTANEOUSLY.

AND, Heb. 8:13 does NOT state WHEN the Old Covenant will disappear...it merely states that the disappearance is "engoos" (G1451), proving that it will disappear at some FUTURE TIME.

AND, something can be "engoos" (G1451, Rev. 22:10) yet still not occur for several thousand years! After all, the words of the prophecy of the book of Revelation are STILL NOT yet all fulfilled even 2000 years later.

Therefore, Heb. 8:13 does NOT entail that the Old Covenant has already disappeared.

AND, the Bible does NOT state that the Old Covenant disappeared in AD 70.

AND, the prophets guarantee restoration of animal sacrifices in the future (Eze. 20; Eze. 40-47; Is. 66; Jer. 33; Dt. 30).

In fact, Jesus will come to restore the animal-sacrifice-laden covenant with Levi (Mal. 3) in the temple he comes to rebuild (Zec. 6).

You wrote: "According to Hebrews, God established the first covenant, and he has replaced it with a new one."

My response: What occurs in this NEW COVENANT (Jer. 31)? Torah is written upon our hearts so that we will obey it! (see "TORAH" in Jer. 31).

And what does Torah entail? Animal sacrifices.

So, you've done nothing to show that my interpretation of Heb. 8:13 is problematic.

And, the very Torah of the very New Covenant of which you speak points us straight back to animal sacrifices.

And, if you're interpretation of Hebrews contradicts the prophets, then of course it is YOUR interpretation which is at fault.

Remember, Jesus sent forth Torah-Teachers (Mt. 23:34) to represent His Torah-upholding Torah-teaching ministry, and these teachings apply to all disciples (Mt. 28:20).

Beware of the consequences of even religious people who oppose Torah (Mt. 7:21-23; Mt. 13:41-42; Mt. 5:19).

Regards...

 

[BibleGuy]

So, you NEED to tell me what Bible version you are using! Because none of the better translations use the word "ready" for near. Ever!

"Then he said to me, “Do not seal up the words of the prophecy contained in this book, because the time is near." Rev. 22:10 NET

"And he saith unto me, Seal not the sayings of the prophecy of this book: for the time is at hand." KJV

"Then he told me, “Do not seal up the words of the prophecy of this scroll, because the time is near." Rev. 22:10 NIV

"And he *said to me, “Do not seal up the words of the prophecy of this book, for the time is near." Rev. 22:10 NASB

"Then he instructed me, “Do not seal up the prophetic words in this book, for the time is near." Rev. 22:10 NLT

"The Angel continued, “Don’t seal the words of the prophecy of this book; don’t put it away on the shelf. Time is just about up. Let evildoers do their worst and the dirty-minded go all out in pollution, but let the righteous maintain a straight course and the holy continue on in holiness.” Rev. 22:10-11 The Message

So, from the formal versions, through the dynamic equivalent versions, and paraphrases, NOT ONE says near means ready. It means NEAR. Even the Orthodox Jewish Bible says "at hand."

“Worship Hashem!” And he says to me, “Do not seal up the dvarim hanevu’ah (words of the prophecy) of this sefer (book), for the zman (time) is at hand." Rev. 22:10

Here is the definition of ἐγγύς from BDAG (Bauer)

ἐγγύς-adverb frequently functioning as a preposition.

1. pertaining to being in close proximity, spatially, near, close to.

2. pertaining to being close in point of time, near (both Hebrews 13:8 and Rev. 22:10 are this definition. )

3. pertaining to being close as an experience or event, close.

Near - ἐγγύς means near - not ready, ever in Greek!

Evidently you are smarter than the translators of the ESV who use "ready" in Heb. 8:13.

And you conveniently ignored that fact that the NASB translators accept "ready" as a translation.

But my point remains, whether we translate "ἐγγύς " as "near" or "ready". It doesn't matter! Either way supports my point!

Here's why: Something can be "ἐγγύς " yet not occur for THOUSANDS OF YEARS!

Remember? John said that the words of the prophecy of the book of Revelation are "ἐγγύς ", yet here we are some 2000 years later, and those words have STILL NOT YET ALL BEEN FULFILLED!

Therefore, "ἐγγύς " in Heb. 8:13 does NOT require that the Old Covenant has already disappeared.

You see, apparently YOU want Heb. 8:13 to have occurred shortly after Heb. 8:13 was written, even though I have now proven that something can be "ἐγγύς " yet not occur for THOUSANDS of years.

Therefore, it is YOU who are evidently demanding a usage for "ἐγγύς " which is not required.

That's why your objection to my position fails.

Regards...

 

[BibleGuy]

1 Cor 10:11 (Young's Literal) And all these things as types did happen to those persons, and they were written for our admonition, to whom the end of the ages did come.

In the above "end" can also be translated as goal :

Strongs

G5056 telos tel'-os

from a primary tello (to set out for a definite point or goal)

If we read the above as the "goal of the ages has come" then this would signify that all that was written in the prophetic statements of the old covenant have reached their goal or consumation

Eph 1:10 with a view to an administration suitable to the fullness of the times, that is, the summing up of all things in Christ, things in the heavens and things on the earth.

But if the "end of the ages" occurs in a PERIOD of time (rather than an instantaneous fraction of a second), then that period of time is something in which we may STILL BE PASSING THROUGH, in which case we need not require that "all that was written in the prophetic statements of the old covenant have reached their goal or consummation".

And clearly, Dt. 30:1-8 has not yet occurred. Moses would be a false prophet if it did not occur.

Moses is not a false prophet.

Therefore, Dt. 30:1-8 is yet future.

Therefore animal sacrifices are yet future (as entailed by Dt. 30:1-8).

regards...

 

[BibleGuy]

quite simply, sin will not be allowed to continue and sacrifice was already made for eternity. look to the beginning. the first sacrifice was made after adam and eve transgressed and became aware. God made garments of skin to clothe thier now exposed and revealed thier fear, nakedness and shame before God.

Sin requires blood to cover the guilt, just as they required garments of skin to cover thier bodies. Jesus sacrifice, paid for sin forever. sacrifice is no longer necassary and blood is no longer rewuired to cover sin, or insttute fellowship or sanctify or atone for anyones guilt, it has been done not by anything man offered, but By Gods sacrifice for us to cover our sin. nothing we could ever offer of a flock can atone for sin, But One sacrifice bu God, and all sin is atoned for for a believer in Jesus.


we still make sacrifices, but we are the sacrifice

romans 12 " I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service. 2And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God."

john 7 " And the Jews marvelled, saying, How knoweth this man letters, having never learned? Jesus answered them, and said, My doctrine is not mine, but his that sent me.17If any man will do his will, he shall know of the doctrine, whether it be of God, or whether I speak of myself. "

Hello followjesus,

Lots of good points there, thank you!

I think my position is consistent with yours, though, mostly.

Although, you wrote: "sin will not be allowed to continue"

My response: I don't see where sin is not allowed to occur in at least some future prophetic stages yet to occur.

Is. 65:20 shows longer life span in the future, but still the possibility of curse (due to sin).

regards...

 

[BibleGuy]

All of your 12 points hinge on the existence of there actually being Jews to fulfill these events. This is the sand your theory is based on. You would have to first prove the existence of a population of scriptural Jews before pushing your 12 points. Since the very existence of this population existing today is rather suspect, your argument becomes moot.

Hello DJ2,

More generally, my theory depends upon the ongoing existence of ISRAELITES (not merely Jews).

But the existence of Israelites is EASY to prove!

Are you a Christian? I trust you are!

And do Christians partake in the New Covenant? Yes! (Lk. 22; Jer. 31; Heb. 8).

And is the New Covenant ONLY between God and Israel? YES! (Jer. 31; Heb. 8).

Therefore, YOU are accepted as a fellow Israelite partaker in the New Covenant between God and ISRAEL.

YOU ARE AN ISRAELITE!

Ok.

Now we know Israel still exists.

Now lets study the prophets to see what glorious future awaits us in Christ when the kingdom is fully restored to Israel (Ac. 1:6).

Hint: Read my OP, where I show that this future includes animal sacrifices when we return to inherit the promised land.

regards...

 

[garee]

What?????

Where is your proof of all these guesses?

Not sure if you're serious....

regards...

The veil is rent. What does that mean to you?

There is nothing more coming the promise of the temporal land, it has been fulfilled . The promise of the eternal land the new heavenly Jerusalem in respect to the new heavens and earth is just over the horizon .

Are the Jews different than the gentiles because a Jew needs more than one appearing in the flesh recognizing them as antichrists>?

1Jo 4:3 And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.

What did the reformation in Hebrews 9 accomplish?

 

[garee]

More generally, my theory depends upon the ongoing existence of ISRAELITES (not merely Jews).

But the existence of Israelites is EASY to prove!

Are you a Christian? I trust you are!

And do Christians partake in the New Covenant? Yes! (Lk. 22; Jer. 31; Heb. 8).

And is the New Covenant ONLY between God and Israel? YES! (Jer. 31; Heb. 8).

Not merely what kind of Jew? One that is one outwardly or one that is born again as having the Spirit of Christ ? Tow kinds of Jews, two kinds of Israel or Israelite in the same way.

We walk by faith not after the flesh of any nation.

Not all Israel is born again Israel as an inward Jew that was renamed Christian . A word that denotes residents of the city of Christ that will come down prepared as His bride on the last day .

Why glory in the outward flesh of a Jew ? Whats the hope?

2Corinthians 5:7 (For we walk by faith, not by sight



The covenant is between His people called Christians the new name God named his born again ones.

 

[LibrarianLeo]

Not merely what kind of Jew? One that is one outwardly or one that is born again as having the Spirit of Christ ? Tow kinds of Jews, two kinds of Israel or Israelite in the same way.

We walk by faith not after the flesh of any nation.

Not all Israel is born again Israel as an inward Jew that was renamed Christian . A word that denotes residents of the city of Christ that will come down prepared as His bride on the last day .

Why glory in the outward flesh of a Jew ? Whats the hope?

2Corinthians 5:7 (For we walk by faith, not by sight



The covenant is between His people called Christians the new name God named his born again ones.

28There is neither Jew nor Greek, slave norfree, male nor female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus.

 

[PlainWord]

LOL Its either the cold or a secret Vaccine that does it!

It gets cold where you are too, LOL.

 

[7777pinacled]

But if the "end of the ages" occurs in a PERIOD of time (rather than an instantaneous fraction of a second), then that period of time is something in which we may STILL BE PASSING THROUGH, in which case we need not require that "all that was written in the prophetic statements of the old covenant have reached their goal or consummation".

And clearly, Dt. 30:1-8 has not yet occurred. Moses would be a false prophet if it did not occur.

Moses is not a false prophet.

Therefore, Dt. 30:1-8 is yet future.

Therefore animal sacrifices are yet future (as entailed by Dt. 30:1-8).

regards...

i was given the impression that The restitution aspect of sacrifices ended when Yehoshua(joshua) and the generation prepared to take yerichoh(jericho) crossed the yarden(jordan).

only later after the time of the judges and consistently throughout the tumultuos times of each subsequent generation the prophets were killed when warning the people of the leaders who were perverting the instructions of Adonai.
In that they turned to false prophets and presented the sacrifices as some sort of feast to be celebrated,..

 

[garee]

I think the feasts which were used to represent the gospel as to the suffering of Christ beforehand using clean animals to represent those who are redeemed and unclean animals to represent natural man had to do the meat of Christ spoke of as doing the will of another the food the disciples. knew not of.

The time of reformation had come. The period of time that those ceremonial feasts as shadows that were used as a parable became sight. The reformation restoring to time of Judges .Before there was outward representatives as Kings. God had given over for them as to what they should not of .The reformation restored the order.

 

[Nehemiah6]

28There is neither Jew nor Greek, slave norfree, male nor female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus.

This is true for the Church, yet it continues to be posted when discussing future Israel on earth AFTER the second coming of Christ. So clearly it is a misapplication of Scripture. During the Church Age (which is ongoing at present) God makes no distinction between Jews and Gentiles. All the unsaved are lost and all the redeemed are in Christ, therefore in the Body of Christ the Church. But after the second coming of Christ, all prophecies pertaining to a redeemed, restored, and regenerated Israel will be fulfilled. While we do not understand why there will be a temple and animal sacrifices, we cannot deny that that has been prophesied.

 

[7777pinacled]

i was given the impression that The restitution aspect of sacrifices ended when Yehoshua(joshua) and the generation prepared to take yerichoh(jericho) crossed the yarden(jordan).

only later after the time of the judges and consistently throughout the tumultuos times of each subsequent generation the prophets were killed when warning the people of the leaders who were perverting the instructions of Adonai.
In that they turned to false prophets and presented the sacrifices as some sort of feast to be celebrated,..

​

Psalm 51 Complete Jewish Bible (CJB)

51 (0) For the leader. A psalm of David, 2 when Natan the prophet came to him after his affair with Bat-Sheva:

3 (1) God, in your grace, have mercy on me;
in your great compassion, blot out my crimes.
4 (2) Wash me completely from my guilt,
and cleanse me from my sin.
5 (3) For I know my crimes,
my sin confronts me all the time.

6 (4) Against you, you only, have I sinned
and done what is evil from your perspective;
so that you are right in accusing me
and justified in passing sentence.

7 (5) True, I was born guilty,
was a sinner from the moment my mother conceived me.
8 (6) Still, you want truth in the inner person;
so make me know wisdom in my inmost heart.

9 (7) Sprinkle me with hyssop, and I will be clean;
wash me, and I will be whiter than snow.
10 (8) Let me hear the sound of joy and gladness,
so that the bones you crushed can rejoice.
11 (9) Turn away your face from my sins,
and blot out all my crimes.

12 (10) Create in me a clean heart, God;
renew in me a resolute spirit.
13 (11) Don’t thrust me away from your presence,
don’t take your Ruach Kodesh away from me.
14 (12) Restore my joy in your salvation,
and let a willing spirit uphold me.
15 (13) Then I will teach the wicked your ways,
and sinners will return to you.

16 (14) Rescue me from the guilt of shedding blood,
God, God of my salvation!
Then my tongue will sing
about your righteousness —
17 (15) Adonai, open my lips;
then my mouth will praise you.

18 (16) For you don’t want sacrifices, or I would give them;
you don’t take pleasure in burnt offerings.
19 (17) My sacrifice to God is a broken spirit;
God, you won’t spurn a broken, chastened heart.
20 (18) In your good pleasure, make Tziyon prosper;
rebuild the walls of Yerushalayim.
21 (19) Then you will delight in righteous sacrifices,
in burnt offerings and whole burnt offerings;
then they will offer bulls on your altar.

 

[finaldesire]

Jeremiah 31:31-34 (ESV)
The New Covenant
31 “Behold, the days are coming, declares the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and the house of Judah, 32 not like the covenant that I made with their fathers on the day when I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt, my covenant that they broke, though I was their husband, declares the Lord. 33 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, declares the Lord: I will put my law within them, and I will write it on their hearts. And I will be their God, and they shall be my people. 34 And no longer shall each one teach his neighbor and each his brother, saying, ‘Know the Lord,’ for they shall all know me, from the least of them to the greatest, declares the Lord. For I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.”

 

[finaldesire]

Hosea 6:6 (TLB)
6 “I don’t want your sacrifices—I want your love; I don’t want your offerings—I want you to know me.

 

[garee]

This is true for the Church, yet it continues to be posted when discussing future Israel on earth AFTER the second coming of Christ. So clearly it is a misapplication of Scripture. During the Church Age (which is ongoing at present) God makes no distinction between Jews and Gentiles. All the unsaved are lost and all the redeemed are in Christ, therefore in the Body of Christ the Church. But after the second coming of Christ, all prophecies pertaining to a redeemed, restored, and regenerated Israel will be fulfilled. While we do not understand why there will be a temple and animal sacrifices, we cannot deny that that has been prophesied.

The promise is he would come "once" in the temporal corrupted flesh. and those who believe not are shown as antichrists

The veil is rent. Are you saying he will be born again of the corrupted flesh as in reincarnation?

We are the temple of Christ in which the outward temple pointed to as a shadow ,Christ in these earthen bodies of death .

Will he leave us and become part of a temple made with human hands? Is the authority power in respect to thing seen or the unseen eternal ? Does the power come by architectural shadows or the Spirit of God?

2Corinthians 4:7 But we have this treasure in earthen vessels, that the excellency of the power may be of God, and not of us.

 

[PlainWord]

This is true for the Church, yet it continues to be posted when discussing future Israel on earth AFTER the second coming of Christ. So clearly it is a misapplication of Scripture. During the Church Age (which is ongoing at present) God makes no distinction between Jews and Gentiles. All the unsaved are lost and all the redeemed are in Christ, therefore in the Body of Christ the Church. But after the second coming of Christ, all prophecies pertaining to a redeemed, restored, and regenerated Israel will be fulfilled. While we do not understand why there will be a temple and animal sacrifices, we cannot deny that that has been prophesied.

As for another literal temple and resumption of animal sacrifices being prophesied for our future, I absolutely deny it. You apparently missed all of the lessons about us being the new temple, and how Christ's sacrifice ended the need for bulls and rams, etc...

 

[tourist]

 

[Nehemiah6]

As for another literal temple and resumption of animal sacrifices being prophesied for our future, I absolutely deny it. You apparently missed all of the lessons about us being the new temple, and how Christ's sacrifice ended the need for bulls and rams, etc...

Why don't you read what I posted again and read it carefully and thoughtfully? This has nothing to do with OUR FUTURE but it has everything to do with God's eternal purposes. Why does everything have to be about "us" and "ours"? God has an eternal plan for a regenerated Israel just as He has a plan for the regenerated Church. They run parallel to each other, and there is absolutely no conflict or confusion in the mind of God.

 

[7777pinacled]

This is true for the Church, yet it continues to be posted when discussing future Israel on earth AFTER the second coming of Christ. So clearly it is a misapplication of Scripture. During the Church Age (which is ongoing at present) God makes no distinction between Jews and Gentiles. All the unsaved are lost and all the redeemed are in Christ, therefore in the Body of Christ the Church. But after the second coming of Christ, all prophecies pertaining to a redeemed, restored, and regenerated Israel will be fulfilled. While we do not understand why there will be a temple and animal sacrifices, we cannot deny that that has been prophesied.

[FONT=&quot]“How blessed are the pure in heart![/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] for they will see God.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]Moshe, Aharon, Nadav, Avihu,
and seventy of the leaders went up;[/FONT][FONT=&quot] and they saw the God of Isra’el.

as for future sacrifices, i have no idea why anyone would do so if they were a believer.
Anyone can read for themselves and learn why the fearful went and offered sacrifices.



[/FONT]