Apostles
- Thread starter JonathanBentley
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To carry that logic forward, "testing them" was a simple exercise in matching the person with a name of the 12?
"I know your works, your labor, your patience, and that you cannot bear those who are evil. And you have tested those who say they are apostles and are not, and have found them liars; 3 and you have persevered and have patience, and have labored for My name’s sake and have not become weary..."
I mean, that's not a labor that requires much patience at all, right?
No, of course not.
Very likely, those who claimed to be sent by the Lord taught things contrary to what had already been written: the Lord through the Spirit will never contradict Himself. They were also without power and/or authority. Only those who go with the Lord may carry His presence.
"I know your works, your labor, your patience, and that you cannot bear those who are evil. And you have tested those who say they are apostles and are not, and have found them liars; 3 and you have persevered and have patience, and have labored for My name’s sake and have not become weary..."
I mean, that's not a labor that requires much patience at all, right?
No, of course not.
Very likely, those who claimed to be sent by the Lord taught things contrary to what had already been written: the Lord through the Spirit will never contradict Himself. They were also without power and/or authority. Only those who go with the Lord may carry His presence.
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Sorry I seemed to have overlooked your comment;
Apostles & prophets / Priests etc… were used loosely – those who followed, preached, were of knowledge and trustworthy gained a higher status – nothing more.
Otherwise, there were many Apostles – even prophets that came after Jesus such as Agubus, four unmarried daughters of Philip and others – but Jesus fulfilled all already.
Rev 21:14 The wall of the city had twelve foundations bearing the names of the twelve apostles…… – otherwise, it is arguably a contradiction.
Luke 6:12-16 - 13 When morning came, he called his disciples to him and chose twelve of them, whom he also designated apostles:
Acts 1:21-24 21 Therefore it is necessary to choose one of the men who have been with us the whole time the Lord Jesus was living among us, 22 beginning from John’s baptism to the time when Jesus was taken up from us. For one of these must become a witness with us of his resurrection.” 23 So they nominated two men: Joseph called Barsabbas (also known as Justus) and Matthias. 24 Then they prayed, “Lord, you know everyone’s heart. Show us which of these two you have chosen
[criteria and Lord inspired choice - no one after Jesus ascended can really say they are Apostles]
[arguably everyone can be an apostle / prophet]
1 Cor. 14:31 – 31 For you can all prophesy one by one, that all may learn and all may be encouraged.
All prophets are guided by the Father including Jesus -
John 12:49-50For I did not speak on my own initiative, but the father himself who sent me has given me a commandment as to what to say and what to speak. I know that His commandment is eternal life; therefore, the things I speak, I speak just as the Father has told me.
Albeit Paul does say - 1 Corinthians 7:25 Now concerning the unmarried, I have no command of the Lord, but I give my opinion as one who by the Lord’s mercy is trustworthy.
Even though Paul and Barnabas have been referred as apostles they were not considered as leading men –
Acts 15:22 - 22 Then it pleased the apostles and elders, with the whole church, to send chosen men of their own company to Antioch with Paul and Barnabas, namely, Judas who was also named Barsabas, and Silas, leading men among the brethren.
1 John 4:1 Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world. [Jesus would not be talking about Prophets sent by God – those who say they are prophet]
Matt 23:8 But you, do not be called ‘Rabbi’; for One is your Teacher, the Christ, and you are all brethren.
It’s a bit confusing, IMO the term Apostle / prophet etc… seemed to have been used very loosely after Jesus - there can only be 12 True Apostles as there are only 12 foundations – many preachers etc….
It's clear the 12 are given higher honor as their names are written on the foundations. However "rank" in the Kingdom of God is not determined by office but by maturity. Maturity comes by walking in the word in spirit and in truth.
Furthermore, maturity is not necessarily a function of age. Some old believers need milk because they are yet unable to receive a mature message. This is why Paul encouraged Timothy to not let others despise him for his youth but gave instruction to "be an example to the believers in word, in conduct, in love, in spirit, in faith, in purity."
As far as an apostle's mission...
Establishing elders in an area is clearly seen in the record. Given their level of responsibility apostles are often elders, too. An elder is responsible for the care of the saints in their area of influence. An apostle's influence is trans-local. So, an apostle who is an elder would care of the saints in his local church but, when he is sent as an apostle (or asked to visit another area,) he would help the elders in that area care for the saints.
He also works with the prophets to deliver the word the Lord is speaking in the moment. The prophets are given the word and the apostles are gifted with the administration of that word (if administration is required). As an elder he would do this locally. As an apostle, he would help the elders elsewhere with the administration.
These are simply just examples and certainly not an exhaustive list.
Furthermore, maturity is not necessarily a function of age. Some old believers need milk because they are yet unable to receive a mature message. This is why Paul encouraged Timothy to not let others despise him for his youth but gave instruction to "be an example to the believers in word, in conduct, in love, in spirit, in faith, in purity."
As far as an apostle's mission...
Establishing elders in an area is clearly seen in the record. Given their level of responsibility apostles are often elders, too. An elder is responsible for the care of the saints in their area of influence. An apostle's influence is trans-local. So, an apostle who is an elder would care of the saints in his local church but, when he is sent as an apostle (or asked to visit another area,) he would help the elders in that area care for the saints.
He also works with the prophets to deliver the word the Lord is speaking in the moment. The prophets are given the word and the apostles are gifted with the administration of that word (if administration is required). As an elder he would do this locally. As an apostle, he would help the elders elsewhere with the administration.
These are simply just examples and certainly not an exhaustive list.
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Higher honour - clearly differentiates, that's why I used the term 'Apostles were used loosely' when referred to others. Clearly evidence as to how they were chosen no such evidence/revelations related to others being Apostles / Prophets. With respect your examples don’t provide evidence, more opinion to justify. I don’t think we can really take this further - all the best.
I just found this thread so I am currently trying to catch up but I just had to respond to this as I think it was the confirmation I had been waiting for.
Lately for reasons unknown God has made the number 24 a main focus that along with the 12 tribes and also the 24 elders in revelation. and in particular of the tribes he wants me to focus on the tribe of levi
So far I have done some reasearch on these things and there are certainly a lot of connections I found but he is only giving me pieces at a time and I don't really have all the info or know exactly how to organize it which is weird because that normally is not to much of an issue with me but this is something new and he is trying to say something from it all
Lately for reasons unknown God has made the number 24 a main focus that along with the 12 tribes and also the 24 elders in revelation. and in particular of the tribes he wants me to focus on the tribe of levi
So far I have done some reasearch on these things and there are certainly a lot of connections I found but he is only giving me pieces at a time and I don't really have all the info or know exactly how to organize it which is weird because that normally is not to much of an issue with me but this is something new and he is trying to say something from it all
I believe there are more, certainly Paul alludes to letters which we do not have.
I believe there was a purge, when the church chose [wickedly in my view] to sideline the Millennial doctrine and replace it with Amillennialism, just knowing the way people do things tells me they would have purged as much of the references to the Millennial age out as they dared ... you have to really dig for truth regarding the 1, 000 years.
If you don't believe the Mill you will scarcely see it in the NT if you do believe then you see it everywhere in connection with other doctrines.
However
If they still exist they are hidden in some vault in the Vatican, if they are gone they are gone.
We must make do and be satisfied with the scriptures we have, we have plenty, plenty. Enough for all our needs spiritually, physically and mentally. Don't go off into apocrypha.
To give an example of seeing the Mill in Paul's writings he talks about the whole creation groaning in travail and longing to be released from it's bondage to decay at the revelation of the sons of God. That only makes sense if you believe in the Mill.
I believe there was a purge, when the church chose [wickedly in my view] to sideline the Millennial doctrine and replace it with Amillennialism, just knowing the way people do things tells me they would have purged as much of the references to the Millennial age out as they dared ... you have to really dig for truth regarding the 1, 000 years.
If you don't believe the Mill you will scarcely see it in the NT if you do believe then you see it everywhere in connection with other doctrines.
However
If they still exist they are hidden in some vault in the Vatican, if they are gone they are gone.
We must make do and be satisfied with the scriptures we have, we have plenty, plenty. Enough for all our needs spiritually, physically and mentally. Don't go off into apocrypha.
To give an example of seeing the Mill in Paul's writings he talks about the whole creation groaning in travail and longing to be released from it's bondage to decay at the revelation of the sons of God. That only makes sense if you believe in the Mill.
Hi Jonathan,
I was brought up with apostles, and they have been given by the ascended Lord, Head of His Body to reveal Christ to us. That is in character, and His purposes as written in God`s word. By the Holy Spirit we need more clarification as over the years much error has come in, thus the need for truth.
I was brought up with apostles, and they have been given by the ascended Lord, Head of His Body to reveal Christ to us. That is in character, and His purposes as written in God`s word. By the Holy Spirit we need more clarification as over the years much error has come in, thus the need for truth.
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Or do Much More with God's Preserved Word Of Truth! i.e.:
) Trust in It (Psalm 119:42)
) does your heart 'Stand in Awe' Of It (Psalm 119:161)?
) Speak of It (Psalm 119:172)...
...And Much More!:
Handling The Word Of Life!
Amen?
) Trust in It (Psalm 119:42)
) does your heart 'Stand in Awe' Of It (Psalm 119:161)?
) Speak of It (Psalm 119:172)...
...And Much More!:
Handling The Word Of Life!
Amen?