Apostles

[cv5]

The Lord then gave of Himself in 5 ministry areas - Apostle, prophet, teacher, shepherd and evangelist. (Eph. 4: 11)

Could be 4 fold ministry.

Pastor/teacher.

Not a big deal one way or another IMO.

Eph 4:11
And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;

 

[Karlon]

So apostles is listed as an office of the church or ministry in the bible. That means more than just the 12 and Paul. So where are their epistles. It's the primary job of apostles to have epistles. I personally think there are more books to the scriptures and often read the apocryphal books. If it's an office of the church then it wasn't limited to a few. I really don't want to argue if there are apostles today as I tend to believe the Bible is the perfect or complete that fulfilled all that. But we could have more writers before. There are a lot of these books on Google books usually as a set. The Greek matches new testament greek.

apostle means one who is sent with a commission. it may be "fun" for someone to read the apocryphal but it is not Holy Spirit inspired which means it doesn't belong in God's Bible. know that the books of the Bible are scripture because they gave evidence of revelation, were uniquely used by the H.S., contain evidence of apostolicity & are inspired. when the church collected the 66 books into the canon, it didn't make the books scripture, they were scripture the moment the Holy Spirit authored them.

 

[Nehemiah6]

My understanding is that the reconciliation is just like the 12 tribes - there are actually 14 total names counted among them, but whenever they are numbered, two are omitted - depending on how the numbering calls for counting.

And that is a determination made by God Himself. Twelve is the number of divine government, therefore Christ promised that the 12 apostles would sit on 12 thrones judging the 12 tribes of Israel. Similarly there are 12 x 2 = 24 elders who surround the throne of God in Heaven. Numbers have significance to God, who is the Supreme Mathematician. Even nature is designed with mathematics as seen in the design of fractals and many other natural phenomena.

Getting back to apostles and prophets, they are presently embedded in Scripture through their writings. Yet there are some today who are insisting on calling themselves apostles and prophets. These are all false.

 

[Marilyn]

1. agree -- because he meets the qualification of having been called and appointed directly by Christ in the flesh. the caveat in point 9 may apply; it 'depends on how we count'
2. agree with caveat, see point 9
3. 'of note among the apostles' doesn't necessarily mean they were considered apostles, but perhaps only they were respected by the apostles -- see also point 9
4. as above
5. agree with caveat, see point 9
6. the words in 3:5 & 4:1 are 'servants' or 'ministers' and 'stewards' -- not apostles
7. 1 Thessalonians 1:1 gives no title to the people listed; 2:6 doesn't necessarily refer to all the people in 1:1 as being apostles - could be Paul alone with that authority & those with him sharing it by virtue of being his compatriots -- see also point 9
8. as above
9. the verse says "fellow worker, fellow soldier.. messenger and minister" -- the word 'apostle' is the same word as 'messenger' -but Christ speaks of "the 12" as particular, which is why we **sometimes** use the transliteration "apostle" instead of just always saying "messenger." thus context determines whether someone should be seen as an Apostle ((capital A)) or an apostle = messenger ((lowercase a)) -- c.f.e. 1 Corinthians 8:23 "if our brothers are inquired about, they are messengers (apostoloi) of the church.. " -- here "our brothers" could apply to literally anyone that believes the gospel. are all apostles? emphatically, no ((1 Cor. 12:29)). but all who receive the message are messengers themselves. clearly there is a distinction between "apostle" in the sense of the 12 that became 11 and to which at least one other was added to their number to replace him, and between "apostle" in the general sense of anyone who carries the message of the good news of the gospel.
10. Titus 1:5 makes no mention of the word apostle/messenger

Hi ph,

Thank you for looking into what I posted and giving such a detailed reply.

3 & 4. `of note among,` eminent among the Apostles.

6. `stewards of the mysteries of God,` (1 Cor. 4: 1) `mystery....revealed by the Spirit to His Apostles and prophets...` (Eph. 3: 3 - 5)

7 & 8. The word `we` is constant throughout.

9. `apostolos,` (Gk) Apostle.

10. Does the work of an Apostle - appointing elders.

 

[Aaron56]

Barnabas was an apostle, so too Timothy and Silvanus. They were not the 12 Apostles of the Lamb but they were apostles. The Holy Spirit does only what He receives from the Son. Barnabas was commissioned by the Spirit and confirmed by the laying on of hands of teachers and prophets. I can deduce that Timothy and Silvanus were likewise commissioned. To be true to the scriptures, apostles, today, are likewise commissioned.

 

[ThyKingdomComeSoon]

Judas did exactly as he was destined to do -

John 17:12
none of them is lost except the son of perdition, that the Scripture might be fulfilled.

i don't think "failed" is correct terminology

I am french speaking so I do sometimes use improper words,

Blessings,

 

[CS1]

How can Paul make 13, when both Judas and Matthias are excluded? THERE ARE ONLY TWELVE APOSTLES OF THE LAMB.

Even Paul said he was least of them 1cor chapter 15

 

[CS1]

Rom16:7
Greet Andronicus and Junia, my fellow Jews who have been in prison with me. They are outstanding among the apostles, and they were in Christ before I was.

Eph 2:20

20 built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, with Christ Jesus himself as the chief cornerstone.

1cor 12:28
28 And God has placed in the church first of all apostles, second prophets, third teachers, then miracles, then gifts of healing, of helping, of guidance, and of different kinds of tongues.

Gifts of Christ, known as the "didōmi " which HE gave to the church

Eph 4:11

11 So Christ himself gave the apostles, the prophets, the evangelists, the pastors and teachers,


it is not a title. It is an office by which one does the work of, i.e., prophet, (a)postle, Evangelist, pastor/teacher, all are valid for today.

 

[JonathanBentley]

It's kinda cultic how everyone thinks the number 12 is special, even getting rid of Matthias. I always hated when people used that argument. There were 13 apostles and more since the Bible never said only these 12. In fact you have no scripture that limits apostles to the twelve. If God offers the list of ministries then obviously he didn't just say twelve only. I do believe the Bible is divinely put together but why not read the other works of that time. Other people have writings that qualify. And for the record I wasn't talking about the apocrypha. There are much better works.

 

[Marilyn]

It's kinda cultic how everyone thinks the number 12 is special, even getting rid of Matthias. I always hated when people used that argument. There were 13 apostles and more since the Bible never said only these 12. In fact you have no scripture that limits apostles to the twelve. If God offers the list of ministries then obviously he didn't just say twelve only. I do believe the Bible is divinely put together but why not read the other works of that time. Other people have writings that qualify. And for the record I wasn't talking about the apocrypha. There are much better works.

Hi JB,

The 12 Apostles of the Lamb were to WITNESS of the Lord`s life, death, resurrection and ascension. (Acts 1: 22) They will rule over the 12 tribes of Israel from the NJ. (Matt. 19: 28, Rev. 21: 14)

The ascension Apostles are those the Lord, the Head of the Body gave to His Body to equip them for the work of the ministries. (Eph. 4: 11 & 12)

Good to know the distinction.

 

[jb]

In the New Testament we see the chief apostle, our Lord Jesus Christ, Heb 1v2, 3v1; then there are the twelve apostles who had a unique position, and were chosen by Christ after a night of prayer. Mk 3v13-19, Lk.6v12-16, Mt 10v1-5, Acts 1v13,26. After the apostasy of Judas, the remaining eleven apostles taught others their hallowed memories of Christ's life, glory, and His public and private teaching, they also enjoyed additional special revelation and outstanding personal spiritual experiences. See Acts 1v1-4, for Christ's 40 days of ministry to them after His resurrection. It is interesting to note how many brothers were in the twelve, Simon Peter and his brother Andrew; James and his brother John; Philip seems to have been Bartholomew's brother, otherwise known as Nathanael, Lk 6v14 with Jn 1v43-51; James the son of Alphaeus could have been the brother of Matthew as well as the brother of Judas, not Iscariot. Tradition says that James the son of Alphaeus was brother to Matthew, Simon Zealotes, and Judas, not Iscariot. Lk 6v16. Families, who have learned to live together and love one another, can be really used by God; they are a strong unit for God, if they keep close to Him.



There are other apostles besides the original twelve mentioned in the New Testament, Matthias, Acts 1v26; Paul and Barnabus, 1Cor 9v5,6, Acts 14v4,14, Gal 2v9; Apollos, 1Cor 4v6-9; Timothy and Silas, 1Thess 1v1, 2v6. “Messengers” in Greek can sometimes mean “apostles,” Epaphroditus and Titus could have been apostles, the word for “messenger” in Phil 2v25 is “apostolos,” and “messengers” in 2Cor 8v23 is “apostoloi,” it could mean that Titus and Epaphroditus were “sent-ones” of the churches as distinct from the “sent-ones” of God, but they could have been apostles for God as well as men. James the Lord's half brother, also became an apostle. Gal 1v19, 2v6, James 1v1. It is also possible that Andronicus and Junia were apostles, they had been Christians before Paul, and had suffered imprisonment with him it seems from the words “fellow-prisoners.” Rom 16v7. “Of note among the apostles” could mean “highly esteemed among the apostles,” but it probably more likely that they were “distinguished among the apostles,” or literally, “stamped, marked, bearing a mark, among the apostles.” They had by their suffering for Christ certainly fulfilled an essential qualification for apostleship. 1Cor 4v9-13. If Junia was an apostle, it could mean that there was one woman apostle.

 

[cv5]

Similarly there are 12 x 2 = 24 elders who surround the throne of God in Heaven.

12 (# of governmental order) x 2 (higher level)

 

[cv5]

And that is a determination made by God Himself. Twelve is the number of divine government, therefore Christ promised that the 12 apostles would sit on 12 thrones judging the 12 tribes of Israel. Similarly there are 12 x 2 = 24 elders who surround the throne of God in Heaven. Numbers have significance to God, who is the Supreme Mathematician. Even nature is designed with mathematics as seen in the design of fractals and many other natural phenomena.

Getting back to apostles and prophets, they are presently embedded in Scripture through their writings. Yet there are some today who are insisting on calling themselves apostles and prophets. These are all false.

I happened to decide to take a gander and stroll into an "Apostolic Church" once a long long time ago.

The main takeaway was that they were habitually and continuously calling each other "apostle Joe" and "apostle Pete".
The whole escapade was bizarre and I beat a hasty retreat. Frankly, I recognized the disturbingly predominant fleshly hypocrisy instantaneously. All in all......no bueno.

 

[Aaron56]

I happened to decide to take a gander and stroll into an "Apostolic Church" once a long long time ago.

The main takeaway was that they were habitually and continuously calling each other "apostle Joe" and "apostle Pete".
The whole escapade was bizarre and I beat a hasty retreat. Frankly, I recognized the disturbingly predominant fleshly hypocrisy instantaneously. All in all......no bueno.

It seems any label men put on a church makes them beholden to the label.

In the Bible, it is clear that the church has a variety of gifts and that all gifts are necessary, like all parts of a body are necessary for the whole. Prophetic churches will "666" you to death; apostolic churches will have an over-inflated sense of value; churches run by pastors will sacrifice truth for the sake of inclusion, etc.

No, man, it's just the church in (fill in the location). We are not to be known by our predecessors or a particular martyr we venerate. We are to be known for the unity in the Spirit we have with Christ and the Father, and with each other.

 

[Pilgrimshope]

Precious friends, this may help solve some Confusion?:

God's Word Of Truth, Rightly Divided = representations of 12 and ONE!:

God’s Complete Number TWELVE represents:

TWELVE "baptismS," TWELVE tribes of Israel (As A Nation!),
TWELVE apostles who will rule in the "Prophesied" Kingdom
With CHRIST!, on TWELVE thrones on the earth!

(Genesis 49:28; Isaiah 9:7, 32:1; Matthew 19:28;
Luke 22:30; James 1:1! cp Rev 21:9-14-21)

In Addition, the Old Testament (for your review at your leisure)
has plenty of 'Twelves' for earthly Israel = wells Exo_15:27; pillars
Exo_24:4; stones Exo_28:21, 39:14; rods Num_17:2,6, etc..

Furthermore, Also compare God's Heavenly Jerusalem (the bride,
The Lamb's wife) awaiting (the New Heavens and) the descending
to The New EARTH, Which Has:

"Twelve gates, and at the gates Twelve angels, and names written
thereon, which are the names of the Twelve tribes of the children
of Israel:..."
+
...the wall of the city had Twelve foundations, and in them the names
of the Twelve apostles of the Lamb...the foundations of the wall of the
city were garnished with all manner of precious stones. The first...the
Twelfth, an amethyst. And the Twelve gates were Twelve pearls"
(Rev 21:9-14-21):

God's Context Of His Prophecy/Covenants/Law Program/Purpose

Rightly Divided (2 Timothy 2:15) From “Things That Differ” (online)

God's Other Context Of His "Revelation Of The Mystery"/ Grace Program/Purpose:

"There is ONE Body, and ONE Spirit, Even as ye are called in ONE
hope of your calling; ONE LORD, ONE Faith, ONE Baptism, ONE God
and Father of all, Who Is Above all, and through all, and In you all!”
(Ephesians 4:3-6!)

i.e.:

Paul, ONE Individual apostle, Both Roman and Hebrew, represents
Reconciliation, By GRACE, of Both Jew and Gentile, as “Individuals”

Spiritually Baptized (And "spiritually United!"), By:
ONE Baptism! (1 Corinthians 12:13 cp Ephesians 4:5!),

Into ONE Body, In Heaven!...

... [ By The Deadly, But Amazingly Wonderful Cross! ] Of Christ, The
Risen And Glorified Saviour, The ONE And Only Head Of His Church!!
(Acts 22:27-28; Philippians 3:5; 1 Corinthians 12:13)
(Ephesians 2:11-16, 4:1-6!, 5:30!)

Grace, Peace, And JOY In Christ, And In His Word Of Truth, Rightly
Divided (+ I and II).
+
RICH Blessings

m sorry but all that would do is cause confusion

 

[Marilyn]

I happened to decide to take a gander and stroll into an "Apostolic Church" once a long long time ago.

The main takeaway was that they were habitually and continuously calling each other "apostle Joe" and "apostle Pete".
The whole escapade was bizarre and I beat a hasty retreat. Frankly, I recognized the disturbingly predominant fleshly hypocrisy instantaneously. All in all......no bueno.

Hi cv5,

Many groups use that name now. The movement from the Welsh revival I was brought up is NEVER used the name apostle to others. They all were `pastors` `elders,` and humble men.

Marilyn.

 

[Marilyn]

12 (# of governmental order) x 2 (higher level)

I agree and the difference is that the 12 Apostles of the Lamb are Kings, whereas the 24 Elders representing the Body of Christ, are Kingpriests - the 2 offices. And that is the order of Melchizedek as we know. Only in the highest can those 2 offices function from.

 

[Needevidence]

There are only 12 'true' apostles - Rev 21:14 The wall of the city had twelve foundations bearing the names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb. Many used it as a loose term to imply those who are followers - but not in the true sense / or they were attempting to decieve. Warning in Rev 2:1-3 relates to false apostles who go to Ephesus - '....you have tested those who claim to be apostles but are not, and have found them false.....'

 

[FredVB]

But Paul makes 13 and no gate in new Jerusalem.

There were the twelve apostles over the church who originally were seated in Jerusalem, including Matthias who met the requirements for that. A few others were called apostles but were not in that same position, we know both Paul and Barnabas were called apostles.

The twelve were over the church though certainly not all wrote epistles. Some including James the brother of the apostle John did not live long enough, the number was reduced from twelve soon enough. The only epistles we are sure of being from apostles among the originally twelve are the ones from Peter and John. The James who wrote the epistle with his name was over the church in his life here, he was one of the brothers of Jesus, and was recognized as one who had been with Jesus when he walked in this world. Jude was also on of the brothers who grew up with Jesus. There is wide disagreement about who wrote the epistle to the Hebrews now, though when it was received it must have been known. I really, really, doubt it was Paul, though. The language shows otherwise.

Where would the twelve have been in the scenes of Revelation, if they were not among the twenty four elders on thrones? I think that representation was including them, along with twelve other individuals important to God for that.

 

[GRACE_ambassador]

There are only 12 'true' apostles - Rev 21:14...

Precious friend, A Very Warm Welcome To Chat.

Please Be Very RICHLY Encouraged And Edified In
The LORD JESUS CHRIST, And His Word Of Truth, Rightly
Divided (+ I and II).

Grace, Peace, And JOY!… + RICH Blessings