Are Catholics saved?

[greatkraw]

dscherck:

I agree that honor is due to Mary, as she was the one woman picked out of all the women in Israel. Not only that but she was one of the few people of the Bible who embraced the call of God on her life without stumbling in unbelief. Many of the people in the Bible did not initially believe right away like she did. Because of Jewish culture, she also went through life being called the "mother of the illegitimate child" for most of her life, and was still able to live as God intended and without offense.

I think the big issue between Protestants and Catholics is that Catholics pray to Mary. There does not seem to be any Biblical support for praying to anyone except God(Father, Jesus, and Holy Spirit). When a Protestant walks into a Catholic mass and people are praying to Mary or one of the saints, it is bothersome enough that many can't stay for the whole service.

Protestants do have a lot of reverence for the Bible and this one point seems to cross the line for us. I love hanging around Catholics, and believe that many Catholics are saved and are going to heaven because they have relationship with and have put their faith in Jesus. I have also seen God healing people and the Holy Spirit moving mightily in many Catholic charismatic meetings. It is just that the theological differences are just so different, some of which the Protestant church considers heretical.

I was baptized a Catholic when I was really young, but later received Jesus into my life by my own decision when I was in college at a non-denominational evangelical church. If I had chosen to remain a Catholic, would God still have pursued me and drawn me to Him? Of course. But I believe, God guided me down this path and had me read the Bible for myself. Once I read it, I saw what I consider to be valid points that go against some of the traditions of the Catholic church.

Do I think all Catholics should become Protestant? Of course not. I know that many Catholics are part of the Catholic church because it is the will of God for their life. The Catholic church needs future influences and leaders just as any other church needs them. I believe that God is definitely moving in the Catholic church and that He is raising up future influencers and leaders that will move the church into everything He intended the Church to be.

Rev 2:8 And unto the angel of the church in Thyatira write; These things saith the Son of God, who hath his eyes like unto a flame of fire, and his feet are like fine brass;
19 I know thy works, and charity, and service, and faith, and thy patience, and thy works; and the last to be more than the first. 20 Notwithstanding I have a few things against thee, because thou sufferest that woman Jezebel, which calleth herself a prophetess, to teach and to seduce my servants to commit fornication, and to eat things sacrificed unto idols. 21 And I gave her space to repent of her fornication; and she repented not. 22 Behold, I will cast her into a bed, and them that commit adultery with her into great tribulation, except they repent of their deeds. 23 And I will kill her children with death; and all the churches shall know that I am he which searcheth the reins and hearts: and I will give unto every one of you according to your works. 24 But unto you I say, and unto the rest in Thyatira, as many as have not this doctrine, and which have not known the depths of Satan, as they speak; I will put upon you none other burden. 25 But that which ye have already hold fast till I come. 26 And he that overcometh, and keepeth my works unto the end, to him will I give power over the nations: 27 And he shall rule them with a rod of iron; as the vessels of a potter shall they be broken to shivers: even as I received of my Father. 28 And I will give him the morning star. 29 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches.

Thyatira means "continuing sacrifice"
This is what Catholicism does with the mass. The sacrifice of Christ never ends.

 

[Maddog]

Thyatira means "continuing sacrifice"
This is what Catholicism does with the mass. The sacrifice of Christ never ends.

Or, more accurately, it's the 're-presentation' of Christ's sacrifice. In Mass, the sacrifice is mystically this self same once for all sacrifce at Calvary.

Christ's sacrifice is not merely a past event, it is eternal and it is right that we celebrate it as such, since it is the means by which salvation has been made possible for us all. It is little wonder that the angelic refrain in heaven (Revelation 5:12) are singing 'worthy is the Lamb that was slain' (though a more accurate rendering of the Greek is 'worthy is the Lamb, the slaughtered/butchered One').

 

[greatkraw]

Or, more accurately, it's the 're-presentation' of Christ's sacrifice. In Mass, the sacrifice is mystically this self same once for all sacrifce at Calvary.

Christ's sacrifice is not merely a past event, it is eternal and it is right that we celebrate it as such, since it is the means by which salvation has been made possible for us all. It is little wonder that the angelic refrain in heaven (Revelation 5:12) are singing 'worthy is the Lamb that was slain' (though a more accurate rendering of the Greek is 'worthy is the Lamb, the slaughtered/butchered One').

yes maddog

in the greek it is the aorist tense ie once only for ever

that is why the crosses in protestant churches are empty

 

[Maddog]

yes maddog

in the greek it is the aorist tense ie once only for ever

The event occured once at a fixed point in time, yes, but those in heaven are beyond the realm of time yet they still celebrate the crucifixion. As I understand it, it is in this same mystical, eternal sense that Catholics understand the sacrifice (though I invite any Catholics to jump in if I'm misrepresenting anything).

 

[greatkraw]

The event occured once at a fixed point in time, yes, but those in heaven are beyond the realm of time yet they still celebrate the crucifixion. As I understand it, it is in this same mystical, eternal sense that Catholics understand the sacrifice (though I invite any Catholics to jump in if I'm misrepresenting anything).

how about celebrating the resurrecton?

 

[Maddog]

how about celebrating the resurrecton?

Of course the Resurrection is wholly important, but it is the crucifixion in which God's love for us is fully manifested. It is basically the most important thing ever, and the pinnacle of Christian soteriology.

 

[miktre]

He saw fit to give us a way to know that we are forgiven through the ministry of His duly selected priests.

Wonder why so many of them turn out to be child molesters?

 

[miktre]

[SIZE=+2]Infant Baptism[/SIZE]
​

Infant Baptism is one of the most critical doctrines of the Catholic church:

"Born with a fallen human nature and tainted by original sin, children also have need of the new birth in Baptism to be freed from the power of darkness and brought into the realm of the freedom of the children of God, to which all men are called. The sheer gratuitousness of the grace of salvation is particularly manifest in infant Baptism. The Church and the parents would deny a child the priceless grace of becoming a child of God were they not to confer Baptism shortly after birth." Pg. 319, #1250​

The Catechism tells us where this cornerstone doctrine originated:

"The practice of infant Baptism is an immemorial tradition of the Church. There is explicit testimony to this practice from the second century on..." Pg. 319, #1252 (Emphasis author's)​

Here, the Catechism admits that this doctrine is not based upon Scripture. It is a man-made tradition. Paul's warning might fit well here:

"Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ." Colossians 2:8​

Baptism in the Bible​

What makes this practice especially disturbing is that the Bible does not record a single occurance of an infant being baptized. On the contrary, every mention of baptism involves people old enough to hear and receive the gospel.
Jesus was an adult when he was baptized:

"... Jesus, when he was baptized, went up straightway out of the water..." Matthew 3:16​

Throughout the Bible, baptism always followed salvation. The Ethiopian eunuch who was led to salvation by Philip was an adult when baptized:

"... they went down both into the water, both Philip and the eunuch; and he baptized him." Acts 8:38​

Others were baptized after they believed:

"And Crispus, the chief ruler of the synagogue, believed on the Lord with all his house; and many of the Corinthians hearing believed, and were baptized." Acts 18:8​

After people heeded John the Baptist's message to "repent," they were:

"... baptized of him in Jordan, confessing their sins." Matthew 3:6​

Obviously, newborn infants can not repent, believe or confess their sins. Therefore, they are never qualified to be scripturally baptized.

The Philippian jailer​

When the Philippian jailer who guarded the Apostle Paul asked, "What must I do to be saved?" (Acts 16:30), Paul answered, "Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ (v. 31)." After the jailer believed, Paul baptized him (v. 33).
When Peter preached in Acts, chapter two:

"... they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls." Acts 2:41​

When Philip preached to the people of Samaria, men and women were baptized, but no infants were baptized:

"But when they believed Philip preaching the things concerning the kingdom of God, and the name of Jesus Christ, they were baptized, both men and women." Acts 8:12​

If God's Word is so explicit that only those old enough to hear and receive God's Word should be baptized, then why does Catholicism demand that newborn infants be baptized? Is it to bring people into bondage to the church from shortly after their birth? You must settle this question in your own heart.

Conclusion​

When you were baptized as an infant, were you really baptized, or did you just have some water sprinkled on you? It all depends on which side you will believe in - the Word of God or the traditions of men. Please keep in mind the words Jesus spoke to the religious leaders of His day:
"Full well ye reject the commandment of God, that ye may keep your own tradition." Mark 7:9

 

[Harley_Angel]

Wonder why so many of them turn out to be child molesters?

Well, Catholics make up approximately 18% of the world's population, which equals about 1.3 billion people. If only 1% of them were child molesters that's 13,000,000 child molesters. Now, think of how many cases have been brought against the Catholics, and you'll see there is a suprisingly low number compared to the potential. If stuff like that happened all the time, we wouldn't hear about it. You don't hear about every single car accident, because they happen all the time, but I don't think a plane has gone down without there being super coverage of it. We must take into account the entire scope of things instead of just stereotyping billions of people on the actions of a couple.

 

[charisenexcelcis]

Wonder why so many of them turn out to be child molesters?

I think it works the other way. Based upon my work at the prison, pedophiles look for situations in which they will be entrusted with children. The priesthood of the Catholic church is even more attractive because of celibacy--less questions raised. Nevertheless, the vast majority of Catholic priest look at pedophilia as we do--an abomination before God. Pedophiles, particularly the preditors, will look for work as pastors, EMTs, teachers, daycare workers, scout leaders, etc.
I think more difficult to understand is the Roman Catholic church's handling of the pedophile cases that have come up.

 

[dothackzero]

Sorry, I brought the topic up...

 

[miktre]

Well, Catholics make up approximately 18% of the world's population, which equals about 1.3 billion people. If only 1% of them were child molesters that's 13,000,000 child molesters. Now, think of how many cases have been brought against the Catholics, and you'll see there is a suprisingly low number compared to the potential. If stuff like that happened all the time, we wouldn't hear about it. You don't hear about every single car accident, because they happen all the time, but I don't think a plane has gone down without there being super coverage of it. We must take into account the entire scope of things instead of just stereotyping billions of people on the actions of a couple.

There are approximately 46000 Catholic priests in the United States of which 4,400 have been CAUGHT victimizing children. Isn't that like around 9%? Considering the ones that didn't get caught roughly 1 in 10 catholic priests in the US victimize children. Only a fool would leave their child with a catholic priest. Then they shuffle the priests around so they can victimize children in another town. So tell me why I would want to go to these "priests" that are chosen by men to confess my sins?

 

[miktre]

Sorry, I brought the topic up...

Why? The child molesting epidemic in the catholic church should be addressed.

 

[dothackzero]

Why? The child molesting epidemic in the catholic church should be addressed.

I was just talking about the fighting this topic is causing.

 

[pickles]

Why? The child molesting epidemic in the catholic church should be addressed.

This crime is not isolated only to the catholic church. I know many that have been victems in many mainstreem christian churches.
It was people in the catholic church that continued to cover the crime though and it was wide spread.
But one could argue that it was because of how large the catholic church is.
Tme and time again I have seen on the news or heard of this also in other churches.
Sin is not just for one faith, those that commit this crime are in all aspects of churches and life.
I think we all need to be carefull that we do not assign sin to just one group or religion.
God bless, pickles

 

[kujo313]

Why is it that when Catholics honour Our Lord's mother, we're called idolaters, but when Protestants denigrate her, they're honouring Jesus somehow? Why can't we recognize that she is worthy of honour because she is the mother of Our Lord God Jesus Christ? Tell me, is it not in the Scriptures that "All generations will call me blessed." ? Did Our Lord not perform the miracle at the wedding in Cana at her bequest even though He said, "my time is not yet come."? That seems a bit influential. And did Our Lord not entrust say to us, "Behold your mother." at the cross? Was she not there at every step of His journey? What is wrong with emulating someone who tells us to "Do whatever he tells you." ? What is wrong with honouring the woman who gave birth to Our Saviour? What is wrong with following the examples of the angels and calling her blessed? When we honour her, we honour the one who made her blessed.

And yet, to some, she is a burden. To some, she is an idol. But to us, she is the one whom the angels called blessed, who tells us to "do whatever he tells us to do." We love Jesus, when we accepted Him into our hearts, we accepted ALL of Him, including accepting His mother as our own.

"Honour" tends to go too far with Catholics:

- Asking "her" to do anything when Jesus clearly told us to ask God in His name.
- Counting on "her" for salvation.
- Heeding "her" words and commands (rosary, scapular, etc.)

Admiring her, yes. Anything after that is going too far.

 

[greatkraw]

the pedofilia issue has some connection with the celibacy of the priesthood - it has only been a dogma of the organisation for just over 1000 years - for more than 900 years before that celibacy was not required

 

[charisenexcelcis]

Of course the Resurrection is wholly important, but it is the crucifixion in which God's love for us is fully manifested. It is basically the most important thing ever, and the pinnacle of Christian soteriology.

This may sum up the central point of the disagreement on the Lord's Supper. I see the resurrection as the most important thing ever and you see the crucifiction. when you celebrate the Lord's supper, you celebrate the crucifiction. When I celebrate the Lord's supper, I also celebrate the second coming of the Resurrected One.

 

[livingbygrace]

This may sum up the central point of the disagreement on the Lord's Supper. I see the resurrection as the most important thing ever and you see the crucifiction. when you celebrate the Lord's supper, you celebrate the crucifiction. When I celebrate the Lord's supper, I also celebrate the second coming of the Resurrected One.

Are many Protestants saved?

 

[charisenexcelcis]

Are many Protestants saved?

OK. This is one of the most unusual questions I have recieved. I take it you already have an opinion, but I'll go ahead. Yes, I believe that there are many saved Protestants. How about you?