Are we sinners?

[crossnote]

Now who are the pharisees?

Luk 18:10-14 Two men went up into the temple to pray; the one a Pharisee, and the other a publican. (11) The Pharisee stood and prayed thus with himself, God, I thank thee, that I am not as other men are, extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even as this publican. (12) I fast twice in the week, I give tithes of all that I possess. (13) And the publican, standing afar off, would not lift up so much as his eyes unto heaven, but smote upon his breast, saying, God be merciful to me a sinner. (14) I tell you, this man went down to his house justified rather than the other: for every one that exalteth himself shall be abased; and he that humbleth himself shall be exalted.


Yup, I identify with that guy...a sinner.

 

[crossnote]

It is written that we are to work out our own salvation with fear and trembling. Work does suggest that we have to do something....right?

Right,. for it is God who works in us both to will and to do His good pleasure.
Still, we struggle with the flesh until that day.

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

So you just generalize every single person who doesn't believe like you. And say they love with a fake love. Because they say I love you and hug each other?? Paul HIMSELF says greet each other with a holy kiss! And I know PLENTY of people who have given their lives every single day for Christ who ACT for Him. And they believe they are FULLY SAVED. And they know their identity in Christ. Which is "New Grace" as you categorize it. I've found the most loving, active, powerful Christians are those who know how loved they are and how saved they are. And those who don't are well, confused. They see people through the same lens that they believe Christ sees them through.

C.

I knew someone was going to say this.

 

[Grace777x70]

This is what was said...don't pervert her words...did you miss the " that grace will TEACH us to live righteously and soberly in this present world part?"....and that we walk in His love and grace..the walk means to live His life out of us...context man!..context..sheeesh

God took care of that too when He said that grace will TEACH us to live soberly righteously and godly in this present world. It all ties together. We can't do it ourselves so He even did this for us as we walk in His love and grace.

No but saying 'we do nothing 'cause Christ does it all' is. I guess I could say it is suspended animation theology

 

[popeye]

It is written that we are to work out our own salvation with fear and trembling. Work does suggest that we have to do something....right?

Well heb 3 and 4 is the believers rest.
We are in perpetual sabboth so to speak.
Salvation is free,work free,and undeserved.

BUT,BUT,BUT, FREEDOM IS WORK.

Ole lester roloff said it best

'all religions say DO'

' christianity says DONE'

 

[Grace777x70]

Yep..good scripture....work out what is already inside of you!...verse after that is how it is done..by GOD working in you both to give you the will and the "do"..capability.....that's another sneaky term for the grace of Christ..shhhh don't tell anyone..

It is written that we are to work out our own salvation with fear and trembling. Work does suggest that we have to do something....right?

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

It is written that we are to work out our own salvation with fear and trembling. Work does suggest that we have to do something....right?

That would be the obvious sense of the wording. New Gracers fear and tremble that they will actually do something. That's unbelief, yano. :wink:

 

[crossnote]

This is what was said...don't pervert her words...did you miss the " that grace will TEACH us to live righteously and soberly in this present world part?"....and that we walk in His love and grace..the walk means to live His life out of us...context man!..context..sheeesh

God took care of that too when He said that grace will TEACH us to live soberly righteously and godly in this present world. It all ties together. We can't do it ourselves so He even did this for us as we walk in His love and grace.

Maybe you should address her, because what I first brought out was the struggle we have with the flesh...it is not a cakewalk...or do you walk on water?

 

[Sirk]

Idk...I guess I've always considered faith to be an action verb.

 

[Grace777x70]

..and then after you acknowledge you were a sinner needing a Savior..did you find one?..we should all find it in Christ....then we get a new nature..a new creation..the new man ...stuff changes when Christ comes to us!..just sayin'..

Now who are the pharisees?

Luk 18:10-14 Two men went up into the temple to pray; the one a Pharisee, and the other a publican. (11) The Pharisee stood and prayed thus with himself, God, I thank thee, that I am not as other men are, extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even as this publican. (12) I fast twice in the week, I give tithes of all that I possess. (13) And the publican, standing afar off, would not lift up so much as his eyes unto heaven, but smote upon his breast, saying, God be merciful to me a sinner. (14) I tell you, this man went down to his house justified rather than the other: for every one that exalteth himself shall be abased; and he that humbleth himself shall be exalted.


Yup, I identify with that guy...a sinner.

 

[Cee]

I agree! It goes far beyond privilege, but the point is to be clear on the difference between freedom and religion.

As far as your battle between flesh and Spirit. I do NOT agree. First off we are crucified to the world. And we died and are now reborn in Christ. The battle as you call it is simply knowing who we now are in Christ and God's goodness and kindness. As we see Him we are transformed in Him. It's not because we have a "sin nature". This is just wrong thinking... I'll show you.

In response to the Scripture you posted here's one a few verses below it.

Gal 5:24And those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires.

Paul isn't telling them they need to fight against the flesh, he's telling them flesh is crucified so don't "work", but let the "fruit" of the Spirit be seen. Here you might need some more...

Romans 6:2
By no means! We are those who have died to sin; how can we live in it any longer?

Romans 6:6
For we know that our old self was crucified with him so that the body ruled by sin might be done away with, that we should no longer be slaves to sin--


Colossians 3:3
For you died, and your life is now hidden with Christ in God.

Galatians 2:20
I have been crucified with Christ and I no longer live, but Christ lives in me. The life I now live in the body, I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave himself for me.

We are dead to sin! But now alive to God! The "battle" is between the ears...

Ephesians 4:20But that is not the way you learned Christ!— 21assuming that you have heard about him and were taught in him, as the truth is in Jesus, 22to put off your old self,[SUP]f[/SUP] which belongs to your former manner of life and is corrupt through deceitful desires, 23and to be renewed in the spirit of your minds, 24and to put on the new self, created after the likeness of God in true righteousness and holiness.

So we renew the spirit of our minds by taking off the old man (lies) and putting on the new man (truth). We are a new creation! The old is gone and the new is here (2 Co 5). And this new self is CREATED in righteousness and holiness. There is no battle of the flesh, it's crucified, the battle is in people believing who they already are.

But there's good news! As we "repent/renew our minds" we prove His will to the world!

Romans 12:2 And do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind, so that you may prove what the will of God is, that which is good and acceptable and perfect.

Romans 6:7 for he who has died is freed from sin.

As your eyes are opened to it you'll see the pattern in Scripture. It says see this bad thing you're doing? That's not who you are! Remember we said earlier: put off old (lies) and put on new (truth)

Examples...


Romans 6:11 Even so consider yourselves to be dead to sin, but alive to God in Christ Jesus


1 Co 6:9Or do you not know that the unrighteous[SUP]b[/SUP] will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: neither the sexually immoral, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor men who practice homosexuality,[SUP]c[/SUP] 10nor thieves, nor the greedy, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God. 11And such were some of you. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God.

We are saints not sinners now! We are children of God!

Ephesians 5:8 for at one time you were darkness, but now you are light in the Lord. Walk as children of light

Hebrews 6:9 Though we speak in this way, yet in your case, beloved, we feel sure of better things—things that belong to salvation.

2 Co 13:5Test yourselves to see if you are in the faith; examine yourselves! Or do you not recognize this about yourselves, that Jesus Christ is in you-- unless indeed you fail the test?

You can see the pattern, old man (this isn't you), new man (this is you), so do this (because this is who you now are). As we walk in this pattern for ourselves we start to see who we truly are and then we do the things that sons of God are called to do! Pressing forward to the upward calling of Christ while forgetting the things of the past!

Ezekiel 36:26
I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit in you; I will remove from you your heart of stone and give you a heart of flesh.

Off and on... this is who you are! Children of light so walk in light! Not children of darkness! And now we are not simply human! We are a NEW CREATION! When we say I'm just human, we are actually carnally minded! But we have been given the mind of Christ! Put off fleshly mind (lies) put on new mind (truth).

1 Co 3:3 You are still worldly. For since there is jealousy and quarreling among you, are you not worldly? Are you not acting like mere humans?

Paul actually is in disbelief at the idea that we act like normal humans! I say we agree! We are fully and completely saved, justified, sanctified, translated into His marvelous light, empowered by the Holy Spirit, with brand new hearts, bearing the Name of Christ, as His Body in the Earth as He is the Head and the Spirit is the Mind. And love does not sin.

C.

Actually it goes beyond 'privilege'... loving God and neighbor is part of our new nature...

Rom 5:5 And hope maketh not ashamed; because the love of God is shed abroad in our hearts by the Holy Ghost which is given unto us.

But what is overlooked, even denied, is that there is the battle between our new nature and the flesh (selfish nature)...

Gal 5:16-17 This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh. (17) For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would.

So even though we are not under the law that doesn't mean we no longer give in at times to the flesh (hence, sin).

 

[crossnote]

..and then after you acknowledge you were a sinner needing a Savior..did you find one?..we should all find it in Christ....then we get a new nature..a new creation..the new man ...stuff changes when Christ comes to us!..just sayin'..

Yes I did, and He is saving me as well (sanctification)/. This does not preclude struggle/sin/doubts etc etc.

 

[Grace777x70]

..and we believe that Mickey Mouse is going to be in heaven too....lol...I just love all the foolish things that people come up with about believing in the grace of Christ and in His finished work...having ears to hear..but never hear...crazy talk..lol

That would be the obvious sense of the wording. New Gracers fear and tremble that they will actually do something. That's unbelief, yano. :wink:

 

[Grace777x70]

Of course it doesn't preclude struggles with sin..LOL..the stuff you guys "read" into things is hilarious!

Yes I did, and He is saving me as well (sanctification)/. This does not preclude struggle/sin/doubts etc etc.

 

[Sirk]

"I show my faith by what I do". Do..being the operative word.

Have I changed the subject? If I have I apologize.

 

[crossnote]

I agree! It goes far beyond privilege, but the point is to be clear on the difference between freedom and religion.

As far as your battle between flesh and Spirit. I do NOT agree. First off we are crucified to the world. And we died and are now reborn in Christ. The battle as you call it is simply knowing who we now are in Christ and God's goodness and kindness. As we see Him we are transformed in Him. It's not because we have a "sin nature". This is just wrong thinking... I'll show you.

In response to the Scripture you posted here's one a few verses below it.

Gal 5:24And those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires.

Paul isn't telling them they need to fight against the flesh, he's telling them flesh is crucified so don't "work", but let the "fruit" of the Spirit be seen. Here you might need some more...

Romans 6:2
By no means! We are those who have died to sin; how can we live in it any longer?

Romans 6:6
For we know that our old self was crucified with him so that the body ruled by sin might be done away with, that we should no longer be slaves to sin--


Colossians 3:3
For you died, and your life is now hidden with Christ in God.

Galatians 2:20
I have been crucified with Christ and I no longer live, but Christ lives in me. The life I now live in the body, I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave himself for me.

We are dead to sin! But now alive to God! The "battle" is between the ears...

Ephesians 4:20But that is not the way you learned Christ!— 21assuming that you have heard about him and were taught in him, as the truth is in Jesus, 22to put off your old self,[SUP]f[/SUP] which belongs to your former manner of life and is corrupt through deceitful desires, 23and to be renewed in the spirit of your minds, 24and to put on the new self, created after the likeness of God in true righteousness and holiness.

So we renew the spirit of our minds by taking off the old man (lies) and putting on the new man (truth). We are a new creation! The old is gone and the new is here (2 Co 5). And this new self is CREATED in righteousness and holiness. There is no battle of the flesh, it's crucified, the battle is in people believing who they already are.

But there's good news! As we "repent/renew our minds" we prove His will to the world!

Romans 12:2 And do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind, so that you may prove what the will of God is, that which is good and acceptable and perfect.

Romans 6:7 for he who has died is freed from sin.

As your eyes are opened to it you'll see the pattern in Scripture. It says see this bad thing you're doing? That's not who you are! Remember we said earlier: put off old (lies) and put on new (truth)

Examples...


Romans 6:11 Even so consider yourselves to be dead to sin, but alive to God in Christ Jesus


1 Co 6:9Or do you not know that the unrighteous[SUP]b[/SUP] will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: neither the sexually immoral, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor men who practice homosexuality,[SUP]c[/SUP] 10nor thieves, nor the greedy, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God. 11And such were some of you. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God.

We are saints not sinners now! We are children of God!

Ephesians 5:8 for at one time you were darkness, but now you are light in the Lord. Walk as children of light

Hebrews 6:9 Though we speak in this way, yet in your case, beloved, we feel sure of better things—things that belong to salvation.

2 Co 13:5Test yourselves to see if you are in the faith; examine yourselves! Or do you not recognize this about yourselves, that Jesus Christ is in you-- unless indeed you fail the test?

You can see the pattern, old man (this isn't you), new man (this is you), so do this (because this is who you now are). As we walk in this pattern for ourselves we start to see who we truly are and then we do the things that sons of God are called to do! Pressing forward to the upward calling of Christ while forgetting the things of the past!

Ezekiel 36:26
I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit in you; I will remove from you your heart of stone and give you a heart of flesh.

Off and on... this is who you are! Children of light so walk in light! Not children of darkness! And now we are not simply human! We are a NEW CREATION! When we say I'm just human, we are actually carnally minded! But we have been given the mind of Christ! Put off fleshly mind (lies) put on new mind (truth).

1 Co 3:3 You are still worldly. For since there is jealousy and quarreling among you, are you not worldly? Are you not acting like mere humans?

Paul actually is in disbelief at the idea that we act like normal humans! I say we agree! We are fully and completely saved, justified, sanctified, translated into His marvelous light, empowered by the Holy Spirit, with brand new hearts, bearing the Name of Christ, as His Body in the Earth as He is the Head and the Spirit is the Mind. And love does not sin.

C.

So you have arrived with no struggles, no more sinning etc? That's my point.

 

[popeye]

Ok guys grace is "all encompassing" concerning salvation.

But to preach that to mature believers is pablum at best.

Grace dimension effects our talk our doctrine,our view,our attitude, but only in the sense that it bleeds over into other dimensions.

Our walk has BATTLE ARMOR,DEMONS,TEMPTATION,STORMS OF LIFE......

Just a teaching on grace or a misunderstanding of applied grace is not going to cut it.

 

[crossnote]

Of course it doesn't preclude struggles with sin..LOL..the stuff you guys "read" into things is hilarious!

OK, fine, now take it up with Lynn.

 

[Cee]

It is written that we are to work out our own salvation with fear and trembling. Work does suggest that we have to do something....right?

Hey brother don't forget the verse after it! That's what our "work" is...

Phil 2:12Therefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, so now, not only as in my presence but much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling, 13for it is God who works in you, both to will and to work for his good pleasure.

He is the Vine and we are the Branches. As we abide in Him. Fruit comes naturally. Works are labeled as flesh, but fruit comes by the Spirit.
James of course uses the term "works" because people were saying that they were saved by their belief, but not by their works. Which is true, but we also need to know that belief creates works because we are a new creation. Simply put: faith works. But it doesn't work from our effort to transform ourselves, but actually we are transformed from glory to glory.

2 Co 3:17Now the Lord is the Spirit, and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty. 18But we all, with unveiled face, beholding as in a mirror the glory of the Lord, are being transformed into the same image from glory to glory, just as from the Lord, the Spirit.

As we see His glory (which is His goodness, remember Moses asked to see His glory, and He had His goodness pass before Moses) then we are transformed as beholding a mirror, we actually see ourselves in Him! And this is what transforms us and produces fruit. As we abide in Him.

C.

 

[Grace777x70]

GRACE is everything....I can't believe you even wrote that......out of the living from grace in us all else flows...

...grow in the grace and knowledge of our Lord and Savior.

Ok guys grace is "all encompassing" concerning salvation.

But to preach that to mature believers is pablum at best.

Grace dimension effects our talk our doctrine,our view,our attitude, but only in the sense that it bleeds over into other dimensions.

Our walk has BATTLE ARMOR,DEMONS,TEMPTATION,STORMS OF LIFE......

Just a teaching on grace or a misunderstanding of applied grace is not going to cut it.