Are we sinners?

[Joidevivre]

(((((((((((HUGS))))-((((HUGS)))))-((((HUGS)))-((((HUGS)))))-(((((HUGS))))))))))))
COMING FROM NEW YORK SISTER JOIDEVIVRE!!! MUCH LOVE COMING YOUR WAY!!!!!!!

Nothing fake about this! Your hugs actually went into the room around me. And I think I might have heard your voice in the distance.

But wait a min.... can you really define this feeling in your heart? Is there a possibility that there is hyper/grace involved? Maybe we should let others on the thread give their subjective definitions? Or not subjective.

What I am learning even from this posting, is that it is might only be pure and real to the one to which it is given. Isn't this somewhere in the bible?

 

[popeye]

Hey brother don't forget the verse after it! That's what our "work" is...

Phil 2:12Therefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, so now, not only as in my presence but much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling, 13for it is God who works in you, both to will and to work for his good pleasure.

He is the Vine and we are the Branches. As we abide in Him. Fruit comes naturally. Works are labeled as flesh, but fruit comes by the Spirit.
James of course uses the term "works" because people were saying that they were saved by their belief, but not by their works. Which is true, but we also need to know that belief creates works because we are a new creation. Simply put: faith works. But it doesn't work from our effort to transform ourselves, but actually we are transformed from glory to glory.

2 Co 3:17Now the Lord is the Spirit, and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty. 18But we all, with unveiled face, beholding as in a mirror the glory of the Lord, are being transformed into the same image from glory to glory, just as from the Lord, the Spirit.

As we see His glory (which is His goodness, remember Moses asked to see His glory, and He had His goodness pass before Moses) then we are transformed as beholding a mirror, we actually see ourselves in Him! And this is what transforms us and produces fruit. As we abide in Him.

C.

I can see you have parked on the mountintop.

So have I !!!!!

The valleys come when you least expect it.

All I can say is .........they will come.


They are the hammer
We are the lump,that needs the hammer

 

[Sirk]

Hey brother don't forget the verse after it! That's what our "work" is...

Phil 2:12Therefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, so now, not only as in my presence but much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling, 13for it is God who works in you, both to will and to work for his good pleasure.

He is the Vine and we are the Branches. As we abide in Him. Fruit comes naturally. Works are labeled as flesh, but fruit comes by the Spirit.
James of course uses the term "works" because people were saying that they were saved by their belief, but not by their works. Which is true, but we also need to know that belief creates works because we are a new creation. Simply put: faith works. But it doesn't work from our effort to transform ourselves, but actually we are transformed from glory to glory.

2 Co 3:17Now the Lord is the Spirit, and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty. 18But we all, with unveiled face, beholding as in a mirror the glory of the Lord, are being transformed into the same image from glory to glory, just as from the Lord, the Spirit.

As we see His glory (which is His goodness, remember Moses asked to see His glory, and He had His goodness pass before Moses) then we are transformed as beholding a mirror, we actually see ourselves in Him! And this is what transforms us and produces fruit. As we abide in Him.

C.

I hear you man. Good scripture. I still have to put one foot in front of the other and sometimes serving Jesus is painful and a decision has to be made to take the comfortable route or the painful route. Sometimes when we choose the painful route it is all the more pleasurable to God.

 

[popeye]

Nothing fake about this! Your hugs actually went into the room around me. And I think I might have heard your voice in the distance.

But wait a min.... can you really define this feeling in your heart? Is there a possibility that there is hyper/grace involved? Maybe we should let others on the thread give their subjective definitions? Or not subjective.

What I am learning even from this posting, is that it is might only be pure and real to the one to which it is given. Isn't this somewhere in the bible?

That was me actually.

I blew you a kiss.

 

[Cee]

I've helped people get free from addictions, panic attacks, and seen many people healed. So I understand where you're coming from... Paul tells us that God didn't give us a spirit of fear, but one of power, love, and a sound mind. Why does he say this? Because fear is not of God, what I am doing here, is telling people the truth! But the reason people don't experience this is because Truth is a Person. The reason why people struggle with addictions is generally a problem with intimacy. They don't know their feelings, emotions, etc. So they get intimacy from a substance and then it enslaves them, but once you show them how to get their needs met in God the desire for addictions goes away and so does the desire for sin.

One of the questions I have people ask Holy Spirit is, God what do I believe this sin is giving me that You're not? Once they know this they can begin to receive from Him what they believe they need from the world. This goes into other Scriptures, but one of them is not to love the world. It's a twisted desire when we are meeting our need for God in things, people, addictions, etc. It's actually the promises of God that let us escape from the corruption in the world.

So I am sharing the promises of God and that other stuff gets handled in the process. I used to struggle with addictions and panic attacks myself. When I discovered God is the Prince of Peace, the Kingdom of God is Peace, and Peace is to reign in my heart and mind, I went after panic and fear armed with my inheritance of peace.

One other thing I'd like to stress is - I'm not making this up - I am showing all the Scriptures. In fact I am going above and beyond the call of duty to show Scriptures so those who are interested can make disciples themselves.

Jesus is the one who said the truth shall make you free. I just believe it. If people sin it's because they don't know the truth (in an experiential way) this goes back to "rhema" which is the active, living, word of God that makes Scripture life! But if they struggle then yes we are there, some people do sin yes, they don't know who they are, or their identity, or the goodness/kindness of God. Heck, most people sin because they think God is watching them with a magnifying glass so they feel more like an orphan than a son. And orphans don't feel approved, accepted, or loved - so they get it from other places. Let's break this pattern.

C.

Well,sort of.
There are believers struggling with addictions.

Under some of what has been said here,they just need a healthier understanding of grace.

Paul said if any sins he has an advocate with the father,jesus christ.

IOW,we have a LAWYER.

Is any sick? Let him call for the elders of the church........AND THE PRAYER OF FAITH.........AND THEIR SINS WILL BE FORGIVEN.


"............and the sin that so easily besets us....."

If you are going to paint a picture that "grace covers all",you better qualify it with "grace is AVAILABLE to all",because if you are on the road to freedom,and enjoying a level of freedom,the enemy will "prove" that position.

Grace is a paid for salvation.

Ignoring the other dimensions,or accountability,is almost as bad as a legalist,pharisee.

Paul saw the danger in his statement .

Rom 6 What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?2 God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?
3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?
4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
5 For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:
6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.
7 For he that is dead is freed from sin.

so,if I want to be free,my level of freedom is a by product of resurrected life FROM A CRUCIFICTION.

 

[Grace777x70]

Amen..and that's when the anchor we have in Christ will hold us solid... as it says in Isaiah ..there is grace and love in the wilderness..

I can see you have parked on the mountintop.

So have I !!!!!

The valleys come when you least expect it.

All I can say is .........they will come.

 

[Blain]

Well if we were to take the scriptures at face value they say that in Christ we are righteous and clean made royalty and kings and priests, however we still sin because we live in a fleshly body but does that make us a sinner? I think a sinner is one who sins and is in bondage one who has no redemption one who does not have the blood of Christ washed over them.

If I may be truly honest I have been talking to God about my internal struggle, I have never had a high opinion of myself and I feel lost inside I don't know who I am in him what he sees when he looks at me what he says when he speaks of me am I someone he boasts about often or am I someone who is sort of good and boasts about occasionally.

We all have an identity in Christ and some find this identity easier than others, when I look at myself it's not in a good way and I feel like God feels sees and thinks me the exact opposite of how I do but I don't know how to see what he sees. I sin I screw up but does that make me a sinner? I don't think it does and honestly to sin no more as Jesus said to the prostitute doesn't mean we won't screw up but rather strive to not sin strive to live as Jesus did to put out sights and our thoughts on heavenly things not earthly whatever the eyes of our hearts are locked on that is what we will form into

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

Ok guys grace is "all encompassing" concerning salvation.

But to preach that to mature believers is pablum at best.

Grace dimension effects our talk our doctrine,our view,our attitude, but only in the sense that it bleeds over into other dimensions.

Our walk has BATTLE ARMOR,DEMONS,TEMPTATION,STORMS OF LIFE......

Just a teaching on grace or a misunderstanding of applied grace is not going to cut it.

To the neo-gnostics, grace is everything. Irenaeus again on the gnostics:

And committing many other abominations and impieties, [the gnostics] run us down (who from the fear of God guard against sinning even in thought or word) as utterly contemptible and ignorant persons, while they highly exalt themselves, and claim to be perfect, and the elect seed. For they declare that we simply receive grace for use [in sanctification], wherefore also it will again be taken away from us; but that they themselves have grace as their own special possession, which has descended from above by means of an unspeakable and indescribable conjunction; and on this account more will be given them.

 

[popeye]

I've helped people get free from addictions, panic attacks, and seen many people healed. So I understand where you're coming from... Paul tells us that God didn't give us a spirit of fear, but one of power, love, and a sound mind. Why does he say this? Because fear is not of God, what I am doing here, is telling people the truth! But the reason people don't experience this is because Truth is a Person. The reason why people struggle with addictions is generally a problem with intimacy. They don't know their feelings, emotions, etc. So they get intimacy from a substance and then it enslaves them, but once you show them how to get their needs met in God the desire for addictions goes away and so does the desire for sin.

One of the questions I have people ask Holy Spirit is, God what do I believe this sin is giving me that You're not? Once they know this they can begin to receive from Him what they believe they need from the world. This goes into other Scriptures, but one of them is not to love the world. It's a twisted desire when we are meeting our need for God in things, people, addictions, etc. It's actually the promises of God that let us escape from the corruption in the world.

So I am sharing the promises of God and that other stuff gets handled in the process. I used to struggle with addictions and panic attacks myself. When I discovered God is the Prince of Peace, the Kingdom of God is Peace, and Peace is to reign in my heart and mind, I went after panic and fear armed with my inheritance of peace.

C.

Been in this walk a while.

If believers will do what paul said "pick up electric chair daily",go ahead and divorce this world,d i e,give their WHOLE LIFE to jesus,the rest is easy.

Yes we get more of his presence,grace,anointing,freedom,and on,and on.

But we receive in proportion to what we surrender.


Grace to me,as a mature saint (ok,ok,not so mature),is loving EVERYONE,ESPECIALLY THE UNLOVABLE,as God looks at them and loves them.

 

[Grace777x70]

There are 2 aspects to grace.

1) acceptance grace - which has nothing to do with our behavior - as seen with the woman caught in adultery. Our Lord beautifully says " I do not condemn you". It is in knowing you are not condemned that releases the other aspect of grace.

2) now, go and sin no more - this is empowering grace. Empowering grace enables you to be who the Father sees you are in Christ now.


The religious mindset says to the woman caught in adultery - 'Do not sin and we will not condemn you." The grace of God speaks of better things!

Knowing that we are not condemned in Christ "releases" the life of the empowering grace to transform us. It's all about Christ! It's His fruit being manifested in us!

Acceptance grace which is not based on our behavior needs to be cemented in our hearts before empowering grace is able to be manifested.


What believers in a self-effort/self-performance D.I.Y. holiness/righteousness based gospel have a very hard time with is the "acceptance grace" part...this just drives them nuts...and I understand why..it is scandalous!

 

[popeye]

I actually do not think the REAL GOSPEL has ever been preached,because if you preach "resurrection life" ,the cliche part of that sounds so "christianny".

But resurrection REQUIRES A DEATH.

We have only PARTIALLY embraced this.

 

[Grace777x70]

Yes!..I agree 100%

it's in the "knowing" that your old man is dead - that is when you can see the new man of the heart..the new creation in Christ..and then we can live from thatidentity..not the identity of the "old man"..

I think with you that is the missing part..telling people you died too and you were on that cross with Jesus!

Teach us about how we are dead! I love that...with that knowledge we can start to understand the gospel of grace.

I actually do not think the REAL GOSPEL has ever been preached,because if you preach "resurrection life" ,the cliche part of that sounds so "christianny".

But resurrection REQUIRES A DEATH.

We have only PARTIALLY embraced this.

 

[popeye]

There are 2 aspects to grace.

1) acceptance grace - which has nothing to do with our behavior - as seen with the woman caught in adultery. Our Lord beautifully says " I do not condemn you". It is in knowing you are not condemned that releases the other aspect of grace.

2) now, go and sin no more - this is empowering grace. Empowering grace enables you to be who the Father sees you are in Christ now.


The religious mindset says to the woman caught in adultery - 'Do not sin and we will not condemn you." The grace of God speaks of better things!

Knowing that we are not condemned in Christ "releases" the life of the empowering grace to transform us. It's all about Christ! It's His fruit being manifested in us!

Acceptance grace which is not based on our behavior needs to be cemented in our hearts before empowering grace is able to be manifested.


What believers in a self-effort/self-performance D.I.Y. holiness/righteousness based gospel have a very hard time with is the "acceptance grace" part...this just drives them nuts...and I understand why..it is scandalous!

Ok,I see this differently,but i understand your point.

This is my position.

A friend loves you in spite of your faults

A father loves you to the point of giving his life for you.

A coach loves you too much to leave you like he found you.

God is kinda all the above.

 

[Cee]

So you have arrived with no struggles, no more sinning etc? That's my point.

I get your point, but I believe what Paul says. As far as where I am, I am always growing in understanding of who I am in Christ from glory to glory, but I preach a gospel of power not powerlessness. Paul himself says that he is dead to sin. I am dead to sin. I am a child of light. It doesn't say I am a child of darkness. Stop calling yourself a sinner.

2 Co 5:18Now all these things are from God, who reconciled us to Himself through Christ and gave us the ministry of reconciliation, 19namely, that God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself, not counting their trespasses against them, and He has committed to us the word of reconciliation. 20Therefore, we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God were making an appeal through us; we beg you on behalf of Christ, be reconciled to God. 21For our sake he made him to be sin who knew no sin, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God.

He died so you could be His righteousness. If He's not counting our trespasses against us who are we to? The more you agree with who the Word of God says you are the more you will see it in your life! Or how else do you think renewing of the mind comes? I have yet to find a Scripture from Paul that says...

1. You are sinners (he actually says the opposite)
2. You will always sin (he actually says the opposite)
3. You are still being sanctified (he actually says we are justified, sanctified, and glorified)
4. The gospel didn't completely make you new, you're still kinda broken.

So stop teaching it! You are a new creation!

C.

 

[oldthennew]

if this could only be True for the many!Q!

 

[Euphemia]

Once a person is born into the family of God (indwelt by the Holy Spirit) should we still consider ourselves sinners?

Not if you identify yourself as a new creature in Christ.

2 Corinthians 5:17
This means that anyone who belongs to Christ has become a new person. The old life is gone; a new life has begun!


.

 

[Cee]

Every single letter by Paul which is written for MATURE believers has prayers for grace to be multiplied! It is GRACE that empowers you to do all the things you mention. Not your "human will". Or were you started by the Spirit to now be perfected by the FLESH? Mature believers don't care about topics other than His love and grace. Tradition says John would come into meetings in the Early Church days and simply sit there and say love one another, just love one another. Please don't diminish grace it is absolutely critical. And it's not just for salvation. Salvation is where it starts. Because once we understand God loves us our ministry begins. Because we are not trying to get acceptance and approval because we know we are His son in whom He is well pleased. Now we can focus on the world and not on our "trials, storms of life, etc." But on theirs!

C.

Ok guys grace is "all encompassing" concerning salvation.

But to preach that to mature believers is pablum at best.

Grace dimension effects our talk our doctrine,our view,our attitude, but only in the sense that it bleeds over into other dimensions.

Our walk has BATTLE ARMOR,DEMONS,TEMPTATION,STORMS OF LIFE......

Just a teaching on grace or a misunderstanding of applied grace is not going to cut it.

 

[oldthennew]

Paul's experience is monumental for all of us -
if it weren't for him and the way his humanity is expressed for all of us,
then I think I would be without Hope, because our Father gave him to us
so that we may identity with all of our ugliness.....

we have the choice to be honest and true about ourselves, a trial to say the least -
it is one of the most hardest things that will ever be asked of us -
we must always remember the scripture that tells us that, 'the heart is deceitful above all things,
and desperately wicked, who can it'?????

 

[Grace777x70]

Amen!...it's in the acceptance that love grows..

acceptance grace is very hard for us humans to grasp because it is against everything in this world that we are taught...and to make it worse..it is against what the Old Covenant is saying.

So, when we mix up the covenants.....we get a messed up gospel...and this is one of the reasons so many Christians have left the organized church..they can't live the religious life and they don't want to be a hypocrite..and others are caught in sin and they don't know how to be free....the gospel of the grace of Christ is the only answer.

Grace is everything..from the understanding and living from this flows all other things..

Ephesians 2:7 (NASB)
[SUP]7 [/SUP] so that in the ages to come He might show the surpassing riches of His grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus.

Ok,I see this differently,but i understand your point.

This is my position.

A friend loves you in spite of your faults

A father loves you to the point of giving his life for you.

A coach loves you too much to leave you like he found you.

God is kinda all the above.

 

[Grace777x70]

It looks like this is turning into a New Creation in Christ believing thread as the poll now has the saints over the sinners..lol..just having some fun..