-
Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.
If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!
To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.
R
Which of these 28 translations accurately represent the Greek? (Click link)
1 Timothy 2:12 I do not permit a woman to teach or to assume authority over a man; she must be quiet.
1 Timothy 2:12 I do not permit a woman to teach or to assume authority over a man; she must be quiet.
[FONT="]Mathew 20:25-28
Jesus called them together and said, “You know that the rulers of the Gentiles lord it over them, and their high officials exercise authority over them.[/FONT][FONT="] [/FONT][FONT="]26 Not so with you. Instead, whoever wants to become great among you must be your servant,[/FONT][FONT="] [/FONT][FONT="]27 and whoever wants to be first must be your slave—[/FONT][FONT="] [/FONT][FONT="]28 just as the Son of Man did not come to be served, but to serve, and to give his life as a ransom for many.”[/FONT]
Jesus called them together and said, “You know that the rulers of the Gentiles lord it over them, and their high officials exercise authority over them.[/FONT][FONT="] [/FONT][FONT="]26 Not so with you. Instead, whoever wants to become great among you must be your servant,[/FONT][FONT="] [/FONT][FONT="]27 and whoever wants to be first must be your slave—[/FONT][FONT="] [/FONT][FONT="]28 just as the Son of Man did not come to be served, but to serve, and to give his life as a ransom for many.”[/FONT]
Thanks for the Testimony!
Years ago we had Lab/husky. Best dog I ever had. She was a rescue which came with a surprise 2 1/2 months later. 8 of the 9 puppies went back to the Humane society. They were theirs since she got serviced there; so to speak. So Coco and Midnight had the run of the house until we got home.
So sits my chair with all it's accessories. All my reference books and bibles neatly stacked at it's side for my convenience. 20 or so; which usually ended up before me as I laid on the floor in devotion studying the Word of GOD.
Coming home one evening from work entering into the living to a not so pleasant surprise. There in the middle of the floor piled up rather symmetrically were all my collection the only ones that were not tore apart if memory serves me correctly was my KJV Bible, A Strongs, and a Clear Word translation with it's corner chewed off. As if they started into it and it did not set well with them. In retrospect I felt the same way when I was chewing on it in my Devotional time.
All translations have issues my friend. The KJV is difficult for quit a few due to the time it was written. I was weaned on it and for the most part it is the main version in my devotional life. But when digging deeper I prefer Interlinears and literal translations like J. P. Greens. (links provided)
Once again thanks for the testimony I really enjoyed it!
Years ago we had Lab/husky. Best dog I ever had. She was a rescue which came with a surprise 2 1/2 months later. 8 of the 9 puppies went back to the Humane society. They were theirs since she got serviced there; so to speak. So Coco and Midnight had the run of the house until we got home.
So sits my chair with all it's accessories. All my reference books and bibles neatly stacked at it's side for my convenience. 20 or so; which usually ended up before me as I laid on the floor in devotion studying the Word of GOD.
Coming home one evening from work entering into the living to a not so pleasant surprise. There in the middle of the floor piled up rather symmetrically were all my collection the only ones that were not tore apart if memory serves me correctly was my KJV Bible, A Strongs, and a Clear Word translation with it's corner chewed off. As if they started into it and it did not set well with them. In retrospect I felt the same way when I was chewing on it in my Devotional time.
All translations have issues my friend. The KJV is difficult for quit a few due to the time it was written. I was weaned on it and for the most part it is the main version in my devotional life. But when digging deeper I prefer Interlinears and literal translations like J. P. Greens. (links provided)
Once again thanks for the testimony I really enjoyed it!
None of them really convey the meaning of αὐθεντέω. I wouldn't allow a man in a church to act this way towards me.
37.21 αὐθεντέω: to control in a domineering manner—‘to control, to domineer.’ γυναικὶ οὐκ ἐπιτρέπω … αὐθεντεῖν ἀνδρός ‘I do not allow women … to dominate men’ 1 Tm 2.12. ‘To control in a domineering manner’ is often expressed idiomatically, for example, ‘to shout orders at,’ ‘to act like a chief toward,’ or ‘to bark at.’
Louw, J. P., & Nida, E. A. (1996, c1989). Greek-English lexicon of the New Testament : Based on semantic domains (electronic ed. of the 2nd edition.) (1:473). New York: United Bible societies.
Louw, J. P., & Nida, E. A. (1996, c1989). Greek-English lexicon of the New Testament : Based on semantic domains (electronic ed. of the 2nd edition.) (1:473). New York: United Bible societies.
Umm, let's see!
None of them!
If you want to read a Greek exegesis of this passage from 1 Tim. 2:8-15, try Word Biblical Commentary #46 Pastoral Epistles, by William D. Mounce. He was my Greek professor. Pages 94 to 149.
Mounce notes on page 126, that
"The translation of "authentein" is the crux of the passage. Authentein is difficult to define."
In fact, a good deal of the people he quotes say this word means "to domineer." I have no problem with that translation, because it is wrong for one Christian to domineer another, men or women. The trouble is, because of an issue with this word, the reverse has happened through the church, where men dominate women, and other men, for that matter!
"The question of the meaning of the word "authentein" is not insignificant. If it means "to exercise authority over" [which breaks the rules grammar,] then Paul is prohibiting any type of authoritative teaching that places a women over a man. [Over is added, my addition!] If it means "to domineer" in a negative sense, then it is preventing a certain type of authoritative teaching, one that is administered in a negative, domineering, coercive way, thus leaving the door open for women to exercise teaching authority in a proper way over men." pg. 128
Of course there is much, much more, quotes and discussions of each word, and lots more on authentein. For instance, he quotes HS Baldwin and his survey of every known use of both didaskilos (teaching) and authentein, in existence.
In the end, despite all the difficulties, Mounce decides to side with roles and authentein meaning "exercise authority" while acknowledging it is an extremely difficult matter. I then talked to him a bunch in class about this, respectfully, and he agreed while I might be right, he has chosen the other side. Now, I respect him and his choices, but even he acknowledges the whole discussion of women in authority rests on one word "authentein" which is found no where else in the Bible, and at least 2 meanings in secular sources, being either "exercise authority" or "to domineer."
So, do you really think after all the research, both reading Greek commentaries, and actually talking with a Greek professor in class about the translational issues and biases, that posting some English translations are going to make me change my mind?
As I said, let's exegete the Greek! Oh wait, you can't! You have to rely on a bunch of English translation from men who have been brought up from childhood to not only believe in the divine right of men, but the divine right of kings. And how more complementarian men, brought up with this presupposition continue to reinforce this issue in English translations.
I always remember my theology prof in seminary. He had been a missionary in China, for many years, and spoke Mandarin fluently. In a nearby city, a Chinese woman, a graduate of the seminary was planting Mandarin churches like mad. He was asked to supervise the churches, because of his understanding of the language and culture. He was shocked, when he found only women preaching. When he asked about it, they said, "The men don't want to, and feel the women talk better, and know the bible better." He came to the conclusion that he had been culturally biased, especially after trying to interest the men in preaching, and they would not. So, the women continued to preach, and the churches continued to grow!
So, these verses really are cultural, and the translational issues are many. So, I will read you the final conclusion that Bill Mounce gives in the Word Biblical Commentary on this loaded passage.
"The good news of the kingdom, is that it does not matter what function a person performs. What matters is repentance from sin, entrance into the kingdom, and living out one's salvation as a regenerated human being of equal worth with all members of the same body, regardless of role. With this, all biblical egalitarians and complimentarians can agree!" pg. 148.
Please, no more posting English versions, I am well read on the topic, and I have discussed this whole issue extensively with one of the top Greek translators on the planet, and we agreed to disagree! I will do the same with you, except of course, you are not agreeing to disagree, as my Greek professor did, and so respectfully, considering I was the student, and he is someone who has studied the Bible and Greek since childhood, his father having also been a Greek commentator.
Got it? No English!
[Square brackets my commentary.]
None of them!
If you want to read a Greek exegesis of this passage from 1 Tim. 2:8-15, try Word Biblical Commentary #46 Pastoral Epistles, by William D. Mounce. He was my Greek professor. Pages 94 to 149.
Mounce notes on page 126, that
"The translation of "authentein" is the crux of the passage. Authentein is difficult to define."
In fact, a good deal of the people he quotes say this word means "to domineer." I have no problem with that translation, because it is wrong for one Christian to domineer another, men or women. The trouble is, because of an issue with this word, the reverse has happened through the church, where men dominate women, and other men, for that matter!
"The question of the meaning of the word "authentein" is not insignificant. If it means "to exercise authority over" [which breaks the rules grammar,] then Paul is prohibiting any type of authoritative teaching that places a women over a man. [Over is added, my addition!] If it means "to domineer" in a negative sense, then it is preventing a certain type of authoritative teaching, one that is administered in a negative, domineering, coercive way, thus leaving the door open for women to exercise teaching authority in a proper way over men." pg. 128
Of course there is much, much more, quotes and discussions of each word, and lots more on authentein. For instance, he quotes HS Baldwin and his survey of every known use of both didaskilos (teaching) and authentein, in existence.
In the end, despite all the difficulties, Mounce decides to side with roles and authentein meaning "exercise authority" while acknowledging it is an extremely difficult matter. I then talked to him a bunch in class about this, respectfully, and he agreed while I might be right, he has chosen the other side. Now, I respect him and his choices, but even he acknowledges the whole discussion of women in authority rests on one word "authentein" which is found no where else in the Bible, and at least 2 meanings in secular sources, being either "exercise authority" or "to domineer."
So, do you really think after all the research, both reading Greek commentaries, and actually talking with a Greek professor in class about the translational issues and biases, that posting some English translations are going to make me change my mind?
As I said, let's exegete the Greek! Oh wait, you can't! You have to rely on a bunch of English translation from men who have been brought up from childhood to not only believe in the divine right of men, but the divine right of kings. And how more complementarian men, brought up with this presupposition continue to reinforce this issue in English translations.
I always remember my theology prof in seminary. He had been a missionary in China, for many years, and spoke Mandarin fluently. In a nearby city, a Chinese woman, a graduate of the seminary was planting Mandarin churches like mad. He was asked to supervise the churches, because of his understanding of the language and culture. He was shocked, when he found only women preaching. When he asked about it, they said, "The men don't want to, and feel the women talk better, and know the bible better." He came to the conclusion that he had been culturally biased, especially after trying to interest the men in preaching, and they would not. So, the women continued to preach, and the churches continued to grow!
So, these verses really are cultural, and the translational issues are many. So, I will read you the final conclusion that Bill Mounce gives in the Word Biblical Commentary on this loaded passage.
"The good news of the kingdom, is that it does not matter what function a person performs. What matters is repentance from sin, entrance into the kingdom, and living out one's salvation as a regenerated human being of equal worth with all members of the same body, regardless of role. With this, all biblical egalitarians and complimentarians can agree!" pg. 148.
Please, no more posting English versions, I am well read on the topic, and I have discussed this whole issue extensively with one of the top Greek translators on the planet, and we agreed to disagree! I will do the same with you, except of course, you are not agreeing to disagree, as my Greek professor did, and so respectfully, considering I was the student, and he is someone who has studied the Bible and Greek since childhood, his father having also been a Greek commentator.
Got it? No English!
[Square brackets my commentary.]
R
Wonderful.
Now, how does this make it so women can be in authority over men in the church?
Peter shows us that those who are in authority over the congregation entrusted to them not lord it over them, so we know the matter of 'lording it over another' is not a matter of having authority over another vs. not having authority over another.
Now, how does this make it so women can be in authority over men in the church?
Peter shows us that those who are in authority over the congregation entrusted to them not lord it over them, so we know the matter of 'lording it over another' is not a matter of having authority over another vs. not having authority over another.
They weren't consistent. Starting in verse eight with the thought they translated ἄνδρας men rather than husband. Verse 5 is good place to start. It says, "For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus."(1Ti 2:5 KJV)
Men in this verse is ἀνθρώπων. Which is not gender specific and means mankind; manfaced. So the context is humanity is it not?
Nothing in the immediate context even hints that Paul through the Spirit went from speaking about mankind. Men and women in general; to the subject being wives and husbands.
Unless I am missing something. What see you brother?
Anyone please feel free to chime in. Not that anyone needs permission...lol
Men in this verse is ἀνθρώπων. Which is not gender specific and means mankind; manfaced. So the context is humanity is it not?
Nothing in the immediate context even hints that Paul through the Spirit went from speaking about mankind. Men and women in general; to the subject being wives and husbands.
Unless I am missing something. What see you brother?
Anyone please feel free to chime in. Not that anyone needs permission...lol
History has always been my subject.
You'll notice that discussion of historical context (and language) in these matters has been thoroughly resisted by the more extreme male power-trippers because it blows their position to smithereens. It's the preferred method to dismiss information and accuse others of denying scripture and disobeying God. They puff themselves up and cry "It's God's command!" with all manner of [presumed] "authority". I'm not sure it would be possible to "teach" anything to people with that attitude....... even if we were allowed to
You'll notice that discussion of historical context (and language) in these matters has been thoroughly resisted by the more extreme male power-trippers because it blows their position to smithereens. It's the preferred method to dismiss information and accuse others of denying scripture and disobeying God. They puff themselves up and cry "It's God's command!" with all manner of [presumed] "authority". I'm not sure it would be possible to "teach" anything to people with that attitude....... even if we were allowed to
J
there are also those that refuse to look at scripture that completely blow up their micky mouse doctrines.
Paul is such a great teacher, it is such a shame that because of the way he writes, some people cant handle it and it carries them way off into left field. you have to have common sense to read Paul. here is a good rule of thumb to follow with Paul, if something he teaches can not be confirmed anywhere else in scripture, you are without out a doubt misunderstanding Paul. how many places outside the Pauline literature do we find no women teachers, the answer would be ZERO. if the answer is zero its usually a good indicator to stop beating the dead horse.
Paul is such a great teacher, it is such a shame that because of the way he writes, some people cant handle it and it carries them way off into left field. you have to have common sense to read Paul. here is a good rule of thumb to follow with Paul, if something he teaches can not be confirmed anywhere else in scripture, you are without out a doubt misunderstanding Paul. how many places outside the Pauline literature do we find no women teachers, the answer would be ZERO. if the answer is zero its usually a good indicator to stop beating the dead horse.