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When did church become about having authority over people? Oh that's right, the Romans.
But Jesus called them to himself [and] said, “You know that the rulers of the Gentiles lord it over them, and those in high positions exercise authority over them. It will not be like this among you! But whoever wants to become great among you must be your servant, and whoever wants to be most prominent among you must be your slave— just as the Son of Man did not come to be served, but to serve, and to give his life [as] a ransom for many.” Matthew 20:25-28
R
These forums can be so toxic! Sometimes I think I'm a fool for exposing myself to this crap.
It's like you've completely ignored where you were shown in the Bible that some do in fact have authority over the body. Just because being in authority does not mean lording it over someone does not mean there is no authoritative leadership in the church.
It's like you've completely ignored where you were shown in the Bible that some do in fact have authority over the body. Just because being in authority does not mean lording it over someone does not mean there is no authoritative leadership in the church.
I agree it's not that important. And I have no problems trusting men to lead. I remember from Genesis 3 that God put a special enmity between the woman and the serpent. The devil is the source of hatred toward women not men. He would drive us apart and have us fighting each other instead of him. I'd rather let this subject drop than fall out over it.
R
So, in conclusion, we can not really know what the Bible means.
I guess when you can't defend an argument you frustrate and twist it to the point the words of the Bible are meaningless.
I'm sorry, but you are exactly why I will not sit under a woman pastor. This is pure rubbish. I know women who even agree that it seems women pastors are noted for their unBiblical teachings. They're going to be in mis-truth way more than they're going to be in truth. That's why I think they become pastors. They have an agenda to teach what they want to be truth. And they seize and usurp the man's authority in teaching to fulfill that agenda. That's not a commentary on women. That's a commentary on rebellious women. They don't go into the ministry to teach what men teach. They go into the ministry to teach what they, a woman, wants to teach.
Sorry if you're offended, but that's the way I see it. You're a rebel.
I guess when you can't defend an argument you frustrate and twist it to the point the words of the Bible are meaningless.
I'm sorry, but you are exactly why I will not sit under a woman pastor. This is pure rubbish. I know women who even agree that it seems women pastors are noted for their unBiblical teachings. They're going to be in mis-truth way more than they're going to be in truth. That's why I think they become pastors. They have an agenda to teach what they want to be truth. And they seize and usurp the man's authority in teaching to fulfill that agenda. That's not a commentary on women. That's a commentary on rebellious women. They don't go into the ministry to teach what men teach. They go into the ministry to teach what they, a woman, wants to teach.
Sorry if you're offended, but that's the way I see it. You're a rebel.
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I'm defending my right not to be excluded from teaching on the basis of my sex. Or not to be limited to teaching only children & other women. And not to be continually goaded with a couple of verses of scripture taken out of their first-century church context. If I have more knowledge and/or experience in a subject or field than you do, I teach you, not the other way around. Regardless of my sex. If God called me to do that and you tried to stop me, we part company. I wouldn't stay in a church that tried to restrict my growth.
That is ridiculous as you know.
Thayer writes:
G831αὐθεντέω, ἀυθέντω; (a Biblical and ecclesiastical word; from αὐθέντης contracted from αὐτοέντης, and this from αὐτός and ἔντεα arms (others, ἑντης, cf. Hesychius συνεντης συνεργός; cf. Lobeck, Technol., p. 121); hence,
a. according to earlier usage, one who with his own hand kills either others or himself.
b.in later Greek writings one who does a thing himself the author" (τῆς πράξεως, Polybius 23, 14, 2, etc.); one who acts on his own authority, autocratic, equivalent to αὐτοκράτωρ an absolute master; cf. Lobeck ad Phryn., p. 120 (also as above; cf. Winers Grammar, § 2, 1 c.)); to govern one, exercise dominion over one: τινς, 1Ti_2:12.
According to Antiquity (Polybius 23, 14, 2, etc.)"one who does a thing himself; the author" or "one who acts on his own authority, autocratic".
The BDAG agrees:
αὐθεντέω (s. αὐθέντης; Philod., Rhet. II p. 133, 14 Sudh.; Jo. Lydus, Mag. 3, 42; Moeris p. 54; cp. Phryn. 120 Lob.; Hesychius; Thom. Mag. p. 18, 8; schol. in Aeschyl., Eum. 42; BGU 1208, 38 [27 B.C.]; s. Lampe s.v.) to assume a stance of independent authority, give orders to, dictate to w. gen. of pers. (Ptolem., Apotel. 3, 14, 10 Boll-B.; Cat. Cod. Astr. VIII/1 p. 177, 7; B-D-F §177) ἀνδρός, w. διδάσκειν, 1 Ti 2:12 (practically = ‘tell a man what to do’ [Jerusalem Bible]; Mich. Glykas [XII A.D.] 270, 10 αἱ γυναῖκες αὐθεντοῦσι τ. ἀνδρῶν. According to Diod. S. 1, 27, 2 there was a well-documented law in Egypt: κυριεύειν τὴν γυναῖκα τἀνδρός, cp. Soph., OC 337–41; GKnight III, NTS 30, ’84, 143–57; LWilshire, ibid. 34, ’88, 120–34).—DELG s.v. αὐθέντης. M-M
Bauer states "to assume a stance of independent authority, give orders to, dictate to." Sums it it up with "1 Ti 2:12 (practically = ‘tell a man what to do’"
Thayer writes:
G831αὐθεντέω, ἀυθέντω; (a Biblical and ecclesiastical word; from αὐθέντης contracted from αὐτοέντης, and this from αὐτός and ἔντεα arms (others, ἑντης, cf. Hesychius συνεντης συνεργός; cf. Lobeck, Technol., p. 121); hence,
a. according to earlier usage, one who with his own hand kills either others or himself.
b.in later Greek writings one who does a thing himself the author" (τῆς πράξεως, Polybius 23, 14, 2, etc.); one who acts on his own authority, autocratic, equivalent to αὐτοκράτωρ an absolute master; cf. Lobeck ad Phryn., p. 120 (also as above; cf. Winers Grammar, § 2, 1 c.)); to govern one, exercise dominion over one: τινς, 1Ti_2:12.
According to Antiquity (Polybius 23, 14, 2, etc.)"one who does a thing himself; the author" or "one who acts on his own authority, autocratic".
The BDAG agrees:
αὐθεντέω (s. αὐθέντης; Philod., Rhet. II p. 133, 14 Sudh.; Jo. Lydus, Mag. 3, 42; Moeris p. 54; cp. Phryn. 120 Lob.; Hesychius; Thom. Mag. p. 18, 8; schol. in Aeschyl., Eum. 42; BGU 1208, 38 [27 B.C.]; s. Lampe s.v.) to assume a stance of independent authority, give orders to, dictate to w. gen. of pers. (Ptolem., Apotel. 3, 14, 10 Boll-B.; Cat. Cod. Astr. VIII/1 p. 177, 7; B-D-F §177) ἀνδρός, w. διδάσκειν, 1 Ti 2:12 (practically = ‘tell a man what to do’ [Jerusalem Bible]; Mich. Glykas [XII A.D.] 270, 10 αἱ γυναῖκες αὐθεντοῦσι τ. ἀνδρῶν. According to Diod. S. 1, 27, 2 there was a well-documented law in Egypt: κυριεύειν τὴν γυναῖκα τἀνδρός, cp. Soph., OC 337–41; GKnight III, NTS 30, ’84, 143–57; LWilshire, ibid. 34, ’88, 120–34).—DELG s.v. αὐθέντης. M-M
Bauer states "to assume a stance of independent authority, give orders to, dictate to." Sums it it up with "1 Ti 2:12 (practically = ‘tell a man what to do’"
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ESV
And he gave the apostles, the prophets, the evangelists, the shepherds and teachers,
HCSB
And He personally gave some to be apostles, some prophets, some evangelists, some pastors and teachers,
KJV
And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;
MEV
He gave some to be apostles, prophets, evangelists, pastors, and teachers,
NASB
And He gave some as apostles, and some as prophets, and some as evangelists, and some as pastors and teachers,
NIV
So Christ himself gave the apostles, the prophets, the evangelists, the pastors and teachers,
Hmmm... not seeing "office" anywhere... nor any cognate of "office"...
Ralph, like loyaldisciple, you have erred in assuming that certain words are in the relevant Scripture verses and seem to have based your argument on that assumption. I encourage you to read the Scripture more carefully lest you continue in your error.
Scripture knows nothing of an "office" of pastor. It's simply a gifting from the Lord, "for the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ". There isn't a single verse of Scripture that precludes women from receiving and operating in that gifting.
And he gave the apostles, the prophets, the evangelists, the shepherds and teachers,
HCSB
And He personally gave some to be apostles, some prophets, some evangelists, some pastors and teachers,
KJV
And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;
MEV
He gave some to be apostles, prophets, evangelists, pastors, and teachers,
NASB
And He gave some as apostles, and some as prophets, and some as evangelists, and some as pastors and teachers,
NIV
So Christ himself gave the apostles, the prophets, the evangelists, the pastors and teachers,
Hmmm... not seeing "office" anywhere... nor any cognate of "office"...
Ralph, like loyaldisciple, you have erred in assuming that certain words are in the relevant Scripture verses and seem to have based your argument on that assumption. I encourage you to read the Scripture more carefully lest you continue in your error.
Scripture knows nothing of an "office" of pastor. It's simply a gifting from the Lord, "for the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ". There isn't a single verse of Scripture that precludes women from receiving and operating in that gifting.
There are plenty of male pastors and teachers teaching unbiblical things.
The Apostle John even writes about a rebellious male leader, Diotrephes, in the church "spreading malicious nonsense."
I wrote to the church, but Diotrephes, who loves to be first, will not welcome us. So when I come, I will call attention to what he is doing, spreading malicious nonsense about us. Not satisfied with that, he even refuses to welcome other believers. He also stops those who want to do so and puts them out of the church. 3 John 1:9-10
A lot of men become pastors because they have an agenda and what to teach what THEY want to teach rather than what the Bible actually teaches.
There are plenty of rebellious men in the pulpit. The news is full of examples.
A lot of people don't trust male pastors either. They think that male pastors are mainly pimps in the pulpit and they avoid churches altogether.
The Apostle John even writes about a rebellious male leader, Diotrephes, in the church "spreading malicious nonsense."
I wrote to the church, but Diotrephes, who loves to be first, will not welcome us. So when I come, I will call attention to what he is doing, spreading malicious nonsense about us. Not satisfied with that, he even refuses to welcome other believers. He also stops those who want to do so and puts them out of the church. 3 John 1:9-10
A lot of men become pastors because they have an agenda and what to teach what THEY want to teach rather than what the Bible actually teaches.
There are plenty of rebellious men in the pulpit. The news is full of examples.
A lot of people don't trust male pastors either. They think that male pastors are mainly pimps in the pulpit and they avoid churches altogether.
congrats! this thread has reached 100 pages!
oops! i shouldn't speak because there are men present. teehee!
oops! i shouldn't speak because there are men present. teehee!
Because the same Paul (inspired by the same Holy Spirit) who said that women should conduct themselves properly in church, also said that there is no male or female in Christ Jesus.
Being a representative authority as the Holy Spirit lords it over is what makes up Christianity. We all have the power of the authority of God in us, its not of us
God is not served by human lips as a will he has no needs .
The leadership is always in respect to two working together in submission to one another. A cord of three is not easily broken Just as the father and the Son were as one the same Spirit, with the family affairs the office is two fold plus children .
(but if a man knoweth not how to rule his own house, how shall he take care of the church of God?)
They working together must first prove themselves a faithful. The office did not just fall randomly..It is not in respect to one neither male or female
Faithful is the saying, If a man seeketh the office of a bishop, he desireth a good work. The bishop therefore must be without reproach, the husband of one wife, temperate, sober-minded, orderly, given to hospitality, apt to teach; no brawler, no striker; but gentle, not contentious, no lover of money; one that ruleth well his own house, having his children in subjection with all gravity; (but if a man knoweth not how to rule his own house, how shall he take care of the church of God?) not a novice, lest being puffed up he fall into the condemnation of the devil. Moreover he must have good testimony from them that are without; lest he fall into reproach and the snare of the devil. Deacons in like manner must be grave, not double-tongued, not given to much wine, not greedy of filthy lucre; holding the mystery of the faith in a pure conscience. And let these also first be proved; then let them serve as deacons, if they be blameless. Women in like manner must be grave, not slanderers, temperate, faithful in all things. Let deacons be husbands of one wife, ruling their children and their own houses well. For they that have served well as deacons gain to themselves a good standing, and great boldness in the faith which is in Christ Jesus1Ti 3:1-13
Even Moses and his wife needed help of other couples that proved themselves. The father in law .was inspired how to reduce stress when teaching family principles from the scriptures.No singles allowed.
And it came to pass on the morrow, that Moses sat to judge the people: and the people stood by Moses from the morning unto the evening.And when Moses' father in law saw all that he did to the people, he said, What is this thing that thou doest to the people? why sittest thou thyself alone, and all the people stand by thee from morning unto even?
And Moses said unto his father in law, Because the people come unto me to enquire of God: When they have a matter, they come unto me; and I judge between one and another, and I do make them know the statutes of God, and his laws.
And Moses' father in law said unto him, The thing that thou doest is not good. Thou wilt surely wear away, both thou, and this people that is with thee: for this thing is too heavy for thee; thou art not able to perform it thyself alone.Hearken now unto my voice, I will give thee counsel, and God shall be with thee: Be thou for the people to God-ward, that thou mayest bring the causes unto God:And thou shalt teach them ordinances and laws, and shalt shew them the way wherein they must walk, and the work that they must do.Moreover thou shalt provide out of all the people able men, such as fear God, men of truth, hating covetousness; and place such over them, to be rulers of thousands, and rulers of hundreds, rulers of fifties, and rulers of tens:And let them judge the people at all seasons: and it shall be, that every great matter they shall bring unto thee, but every small matter they shall judge: so shall it be easier for thyself, and they shall bear the burden with thee Exo 18:22
God is not served by human lips as a will he has no needs .
The leadership is always in respect to two working together in submission to one another. A cord of three is not easily broken Just as the father and the Son were as one the same Spirit, with the family affairs the office is two fold plus children .
(but if a man knoweth not how to rule his own house, how shall he take care of the church of God?)
They working together must first prove themselves a faithful. The office did not just fall randomly..It is not in respect to one neither male or female
Faithful is the saying, If a man seeketh the office of a bishop, he desireth a good work. The bishop therefore must be without reproach, the husband of one wife, temperate, sober-minded, orderly, given to hospitality, apt to teach; no brawler, no striker; but gentle, not contentious, no lover of money; one that ruleth well his own house, having his children in subjection with all gravity; (but if a man knoweth not how to rule his own house, how shall he take care of the church of God?) not a novice, lest being puffed up he fall into the condemnation of the devil. Moreover he must have good testimony from them that are without; lest he fall into reproach and the snare of the devil. Deacons in like manner must be grave, not double-tongued, not given to much wine, not greedy of filthy lucre; holding the mystery of the faith in a pure conscience. And let these also first be proved; then let them serve as deacons, if they be blameless. Women in like manner must be grave, not slanderers, temperate, faithful in all things. Let deacons be husbands of one wife, ruling their children and their own houses well. For they that have served well as deacons gain to themselves a good standing, and great boldness in the faith which is in Christ Jesus1Ti 3:1-13
Even Moses and his wife needed help of other couples that proved themselves. The father in law .was inspired how to reduce stress when teaching family principles from the scriptures.No singles allowed.
And it came to pass on the morrow, that Moses sat to judge the people: and the people stood by Moses from the morning unto the evening.And when Moses' father in law saw all that he did to the people, he said, What is this thing that thou doest to the people? why sittest thou thyself alone, and all the people stand by thee from morning unto even?
And Moses said unto his father in law, Because the people come unto me to enquire of God: When they have a matter, they come unto me; and I judge between one and another, and I do make them know the statutes of God, and his laws.
And Moses' father in law said unto him, The thing that thou doest is not good. Thou wilt surely wear away, both thou, and this people that is with thee: for this thing is too heavy for thee; thou art not able to perform it thyself alone.Hearken now unto my voice, I will give thee counsel, and God shall be with thee: Be thou for the people to God-ward, that thou mayest bring the causes unto God:And thou shalt teach them ordinances and laws, and shalt shew them the way wherein they must walk, and the work that they must do.Moreover thou shalt provide out of all the people able men, such as fear God, men of truth, hating covetousness; and place such over them, to be rulers of thousands, and rulers of hundreds, rulers of fifties, and rulers of tens:And let them judge the people at all seasons: and it shall be, that every great matter they shall bring unto thee, but every small matter they shall judge: so shall it be easier for thyself, and they shall bear the burden with thee Exo 18:22
Yes and rightly so When Adam heard the voice of God not to eat he added... and don't touch it or you wil die.
Because the Holy Spirit measures rebelion by that which we hold in our heart to even look at a woman with lust today or woman lusting after men is enough to declare one guily .Adam took that away when he added ....don't touch it or you wil die. Adam who was there took on the silence role both fell in the twinking of an eye
Gen 3:2 And the woman said unto the serpent, Of the fruit of the trees of the garden we may eat:
Gen 3:3 but of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, God hath said, Ye shall not eat of it, neither shall ye touch it, lest ye die.
Because the Holy Spirit measures rebelion by that which we hold in our heart to even look at a woman with lust today or woman lusting after men is enough to declare one guily .Adam took that away when he added ....don't touch it or you wil die. Adam who was there took on the silence role both fell in the twinking of an eye
Gen 3:2 And the woman said unto the serpent, Of the fruit of the trees of the garden we may eat:
Gen 3:3 but of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, God hath said, Ye shall not eat of it, neither shall ye touch it, lest ye die.
L
Every aspect of life deals with an authority and command structure. In everything there must be chosen a leader. God has chosen man to be the leader in society and in the preaching of His word. Anyone believing in this is following the will of God and anyone opposing this clearly written command is opposing the will of God.