Are Women Not Allowed to Preach in Every Case?

[garee]

This book did a great job to look at the cultural background back then and why Paul had to stop things. Sadly enough this famous verse has been applied to every generation of these last two centuries and in many churches. Paul was talking to all the churches in that town I believe, not to all the world. Sometimes we need to look deeper and I believe the book "What's with Paul and women" from Jon Zens does that. Just like Paul for wrote several times (Rom.1:8. Col. 1:6 and 1:23) that the gospel had been preached to all the world in his time we just cannot always apply things. I always wondered how this was possible but then found that the the word for world is the same that Augustus used during the audit and he only owned the Roman empire so that's why some translations have used the words civilized world. While the Word was written for us, not everything was written to us, so audience relevance and time lines are very important. Not just context. Every generation again and again tries to apply everything right left and centre to themselves when they read scripture while many parts of history do not always apply to us. We can learn from it for sure. Think of Paul's thorn which has been abused and referred to his enemies, as the term comes back twice in the OT. Or the term "this generation" that applied in all instances it appears to Jesus direct audience back then and not to us, including Luke 17:25 where it says that "He (Jesus) has to be rejected and suffer much by this generation". The word "today" is not always our day either for example in Genesis 47:26 where it says:" Joseph made a law concerning the land in Egypt which is still in force today: One-fifth [of the produce] belongs to Pharaoh" Anyway, here is the book. Hope it blesses someone. God bless. https://www.amazon.com/Whats-Paul-Women-Jon-Zens/dp/0976522292

I would see that a little differently, you could say the opposite .

Both sides of the new ceremonial law .Mans head uncovered with woman's hair covered and the bread and blood of grapes as one demonstration to the world . . . should be looked at. A beautiful gospel picture the bride of Christ

Some confuse the ceremonial laws "a sign to the whole world" as a cultural foundation or background and therefore destroy the intended purpose like the "time of reformation". A time set aside as a parable. Kings as pagan representative in Israel a abomination of desolation. It was made desolate, destroyed when the veil was rent from the top to the bottom (70 feet)

He gave them that had no faith over to do that which they should not of in their jealousy of the surrounding pagan nations that do walk by sight .(no faith coming as it is written)

The pagan form of government. . . its law of men. Laws of the kings, princes and fathers fell when Jesus said; "it is finished". The promise of Joel at Pentecost. God bringing, moving prophets to declare His gospel as a kingdom of priest .Men and woman from all nations, naming His bride, Christian . . . . . "residents of the heavenly city named after her husband . . God having fulfilled the shadows of most of the old testament prophesies .He designed the new (1 Corinthians 11) . The gospel wedding invitation to the whole world. It is all but faded away .There are a few places that do honor the tradition of the unveiling at the wedding supper . The tradition of God. Not of Paul .

It is not a tradition accredited to those moved to perform as self edification. (signs and wonder seekers) It is the representative glory of the hidden glory a living hope.

When Aaron sons offered strange fire (adding a personal touch self-edification) .They were destroyed, but the ceremonial clothing left intact no smell of death . There is some value in the new ceremonial laws. The wedding invitation. Come before the last day door is closed.

Matthew 22 And Jesus answered and spake unto them again by parables, and said, The kingdom of heaven is like unto a certain king, which made a marriage for his son, And sent forth his servants to call them that were bidden to the wedding: and they would not come. ...

 

[garee]

Jesus is a good student, watching what the father did. Jesus is also the good teacher.


John 1: 14 The Word

Unseen

became flesh

Seen

and lived among us. We saw his glory, such glory as of the one and only Son of the Father, full of grace and truth.

Yes according to the unseen eternal not the temporal . Jesus said his own flesh it profits for nothing.

 

[Dan_473]

Yes according to the unseen eternal not the temporal . Jesus said his own flesh it profits for nothing.

I believe you are interpreting that verse incorrectly. Here's a translation that makes it more clear, imo.

"The Spirit alone gives eternal life. Human effort accomplishes nothing."

https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=John+6&version=NLT

 

[garee]

I believe you are interpreting that verse incorrectly. Here's a translation that makes it more clear, imo.

"The Spirit alone gives eternal life. Human effort accomplishes nothing."

https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=John+6&version=NLT

Saying the same thing. Jesus said of His own flesh it profits for nothing, zero. Its the unseen eternal that alone can ..

We do not know Christ after the rudiments of this world (see, smell, feel hear) .They the invisible things of him (things of faith) They can direct us towards him if we mix the unseen understanding faithfully. .

2 Corinthians 4:18 While we look not at the things which are seen, but at the things which are not seen: for the things which are seen are temporal; but the things which are not seen are eternal.

Romans 1: 20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:

 

[Dan_473]

Saying the same thing

I disagree that the two translations are saying the same thing.

Flesh is something material: meat, muscle, bone.

Human effort is an abstract concept.


There is value Jesus' flesh.

John 6: 51 The bread which I will give for the life of the world is my flesh.

 

[TheLearner]

I think we need to circumvent what preaching is first. If what we mean by preaching is an every week Sunday service message in a church, then that is understandably not permissible by the bible.

I believe woman can preach depending on the circumstance. If only what we mean by preach is giving the message of the gospel to a group which may or may not include men. If a woman from the Medieval era is about to be killed by hanging by a bunch of pagans, I believe before she dies, she has the right to give the people (men, women, and children) killing her the message of Christ and therefore preach the gospel. This audience could be, in fact, a group of brainwashed Christians (Catholics killing Protestants, or Protestants killing Catholics). These are just extreme examples but nevertheless possible and justifiable.

Titus 2:3-5 ESV / 87 helpful votes Helpful Not Helpful
Older women likewise are to be reverent in behavior, not slanderers or slaves to much wine. They are to teach what is good, and so train the young women to love their husbands and children, to be self-controlled, pure, working at home, kind, and submissive to their own husbands, that the word of God may not be reviled.

One needs to look at the culture of the Bible when applying Scriptural principles to the modern world.
Education of Women back then and today is a big issue.

 

[garee]

I disagree that the two translations are saying the same thing.

Flesh is something material: meat, muscle, bone.

Human effort is an abstract concept.


There is value Jesus' flesh.

John 6: 51 The bread which I will give for the life of the world is my flesh.

As a promised temporal demonstration it does profit . But not according to the unseen work of the Father and Son .In that way looking at the corruptible flesh that Jesus inherited from his mother. It does not aid in the power that comes from the hearing of faith. Hearing another's understanding.

The Father unseen pours out the wrath of mankind on the flesh. Weakened the Son cries out and is strengthened by the breath of the Father. His words are Spirit and life giving. .This continues for three days and nights set aside as holy, holy, holy.

Flesh signified as sinful was needed to show the demonstration .It perform what the letter of the law "death" could not . Create new spirit life that will never die .

It helps reconciling the metaphorical phrase; "eat my flesh and drink my blood" .We search for the spirutl understanding in those parables having the tools needed we can look for. How we can drink the blood of men and not violate the law not to drink. . . . . it must be poured out.

The fleshly demonstration surely did profit as sign to the whole world .I would call it the wedding invitation to all the nations. . But like those in John 6 who were informed of. . . drink the blood of men, they walked away in unbelief (no faith) no faith.

Reminded me of a parable or proverb . revealing as one of the better things that accompanny salvation is he gives the honor a desire to seek out his approval.

Proverbs 25:2 It is the glory of God to conceal a thing: but the honour of kings is to search out a matter.

As a kingdom of priest we can search out that which he does conceal from the temporal things seen .

Flesh needed, yes.

Profit no.

We walk by faith.

Spirit of holiness.

Not flesh of holiness.

Romans 1:3-5 King James Version (KJV) Concerning his Son Jesus Christ our Lord, which was made of the seed of David according to the flesh; And declared to be the Son of God with power, according to the spirit of holiness, by the resurrection from the dead: By whom we have received grace and apostleship, for obedience to the faith among all nations, for his name:

 

[garee]

Titus 2:3-5 ESV / 87 helpful votes Helpful Not Helpful
Older women likewise are to be reverent in behavior, not slanderers or slaves to much wine. They are to teach what is good, and so train the young women to love their husbands and children, to be self-controlled, pure, working at home, kind, and submissive to their own husbands, that the word of God may not be reviled.

One needs to look at the culture of the Bible when applying Scriptural principles to the modern world.
Education of Women back then and today is a big issue.

The fruit of the new spirit working in that older woman teaches the younger. That her and her husband's two fold ministry might be virtuous . One that rules together and not one that lords it over another.

We can plant the born again seed .The mutual Spirit of Christ that indwells the believer he does the teaching and the reminding of what he previously taught. He whose name is Jealous will no share his teaching authority with man seen . Like in the garden .You shall surely die.

Call no man on earth Teacher or Father one is our Lord and master in heaven .

 

[Dino246]

The fruit of the new spirit working in that older woman teaches the younger. That her and her husband's two fold ministry might be virtuous .

That's incorrect, because it assumes that the older woman is married. That verse says nothing whatsoever about the older women working with their husbands. Your view would make widows and spinsters useless, in contrast to Paul who gives them important and God-ordained purpose in the Church.

 

[Dino246]

Saying the same thing. Jesus said of His own flesh it profits for nothing, zero. Its the unseen eternal that alone can ..

We do not know Christ after the rudiments of this world (see, smell, feel hear) .They the invisible things of him (things of faith) They can direct us towards him if we mix the unseen understanding faithfully. .

2 Corinthians 4:18 While we look not at the things which are seen, but at the things which are not seen: for the things which are seen are temporal; but the things which are not seen are eternal.

Romans 1: 20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:

You continually stress that Jesus' flesh profits nothing, but you also continually ignore the context in which Jesus spoke those words.

 

[Dan_473]

As a promised temporal demonstration it does profit .

I disagree that the "for life of the world" is a temporal demonstration.

In that way looking at the corruptible flesh that Jesus inherited from his mother.

Mary could only have contributed the female part of the genetics of Jesus. The male part would have had to have come miraculously from God in some fashion.

 

[p_rehbein]

Yes, that would be a very literal reading of the scriptures!

And if an abused wife or child comes to you, be sure to tell them to return and submit.

But when a particular interpretation ends up going against that which is good and pure and beautiful, then it's time to use a different interpretation!

Have to understand sarcasm when you read it

 

[p_rehbein]

The Bible does not directly address either the question of a woman teaching teen boys or of when a boy becomes a man. In the Old Testament, 20 years old was considered old enough to serve in the military and to be counted in the census (Numbers 1:3)—so, young men of 20 years were considered adults. In the Mishnah the age of moral and religious responsibility was set at 13. But nowhere does the Bible specifically identify 20 or 18 or 13 or any other age as the age at which a boy becomes a man.

The Bible is clear that the formal position of “teacher” in a church must be occupied by a male if adult males are among the students. The Bible is less clear about when a boy becomes a man. Generally speaking, most churches that hold to complementarianism have male teachers in classes for junior high and high school if boys are in those classes. This seems to be a good policy to follow, as it avoids any possible violation of the Bible’s command concerning women shepherding men in the church. However, this does not preclude women from discipling, encouraging, rebuking, and providing guidance to young men. “Follow me as I follow Christ” is something every Christian is to emulate (1 Corinthians 11:1).

 

[tantalon]

There are no qualifications for women leadership roles in the Church, except one: see Titus 2: 3,4. Teacher roles such as pastors, elders or deacons are not to be occupied by women as taught by Paul in 1 Tim: 11,12. But strong willed women want those positions of leadership over men, and will twist scripture to get them. I have noted at Bible studies that I have attended, that women usually outnumber the men for attendance and zeal, and will step up to the plate if asked. But the Word says no, to all such behaviours for leadership or titles.

 

[zzzzJASON]

Welcome to CC, Jason...
The person to whom you responded posts comments consistently replete with spelling errors. Spare yourself the grief. Some people care and want to learn, while others don't.

Thanks Dino. sorry , I think I was having a bad day.

 

[Pilgrimshope]

I think we need to circumvent what preaching is first. If what we mean by preaching is an every week Sunday service message in a church, then that is understandably not permissible by the bible.

I believe woman can preach depending on the circumstance. If only what we mean by preach is giving the message of the gospel to a group which may or may not include men. If a woman from the Medieval era is about to be killed by hanging by a bunch of pagans, I believe before she dies, she has the right to give the people (men, women, and children) killing her the message of Christ and therefore preach the gospel. This audience could be, in fact, a group of brainwashed Christians (Catholics killing Protestants, or Protestants killing Catholics). These are just extreme examples but nevertheless possible and justifiable.

Mary was the first sent to preach the resurrection and ascension of Jesus Christ , to the men and women who left before she did

“Then the disciples went away again unto their own home.

But Mary stood without at the sepulchre weeping: and as she wept, she stooped down, and looked into the sepulchre,

…Jesus saith unto her, Mary. She turned herself, and saith unto him, Rabboni; which is to say, Master.

Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.”
‭‭John‬ ‭20:10-11, 16-17‬ ‭KJV‬‬

I am glad I share your view because I’ve known a few women in my life who have taught me thkngs I needed to know before I ever began having an interest in studying myself

every Christian is called to witness the gospel is my firm belief and gifts were poured upon men and women

“And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams:”
‭‭Acts‬ ‭2:17‬ ‭KJV‬‬

 

[Katia]

I think we need to circumvent what preaching is first. If what we mean by preaching is an every week Sunday service message in a church, then that is understandably not permissible by the bible.

I believe woman can preach depending on the circumstance. If only what we mean by preach is giving the message of the gospel to a group which may or may not include men. If a woman from the Medieval era is about to be killed by hanging by a bunch of pagans, I believe before she dies, she has the right to give the people (men, women, and children) killing her the message of Christ and therefore preach the gospel. This audience could be, in fact, a group of brainwashed Christians (Catholics killing Protestants, or Protestants killing Catholics). These are just extreme examples but nevertheless possible and justifiable.

I think the Doctrine of not allowing women to preach is Paul's invention, and he was a sexist.

 

[Dino246]

I think the Doctrine of not allowing women to preach is Paul's invention, and he was a sexist.

I disagree that Paul was sexist. I believe that his writings have been badly misinterpreted by sexists though.

 

[CS1]

I think the Doctrine of not allowing women to preach is Paul's invention, and he was a sexist.

he was not sexist as that is a secular humanistic term. Was it Paul or God who said women have to obey their Husband and placed him over the women? Paul was just saying as He received HIS revelation from Christ in context to a woman having authority over the Church. Yes, they can preach. And women are very good preacher many of them I have met and listen too. Being gifted in preaching is given to women too as the Holy Spirit enables them to do.

 

[Katia]

I disagree that Paul was sexist. I believe that his writings have been badly misinterpreted by sexists though.

Well, there is that school of thought that Genesis 3:16, and any scripture that follows that mentions women is evidence of God's continuing punishment. Eve did not willfully sin, she was deceived.