ask Word of Faith! WOF

[wanderer6059]

According to the scripture, YOU do not have the ability to ALWAYS ask for the right things.

We are fallen creatures, and we are incapable of ALWAYS asking for the right things.
Our own hearts are deceitful... meaning we can sometimes deceive ourselves.
Jeremiah 17:9 "The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?"

And even when we DO ask for the right things... God may CHOOSE to withhold a good thing, because he has some higher purpose.

id like examples of this in scripture not just you opinion.

 

[maxwel]

Can you give the time frame of that? Was it earlier in his walk or later?

This is in the Book of Romans.

This is written NEAR the END OF PAUL'S LIFE...
LONG after Paul's conversion on the road to Damascus.

At this point in time, Paul had been a full time missionary for many years, and he was "sanctified enough", apparently, that God honored him with writing many New Testament books, including THIS book, the Book of Romans.

But even at this point in his life, long after his conversion, near the end of his life, after years as a great missionary... Paul tells us that he still struggles with sin.

 

[maxwel]

Alright guys, you win for now... you've thoroughly exhausted me.
: )

Perhaps we'll pick it up again later.

God Bless,

 

[CeileDe]

This is in the Book of Romans.

This is written near the END OF PAUL'S LIFE...
LONG after Paul's conversion on the road to Damascus.

At this point in time, Paul had been a full time missionary for many years, and he was "sanctified enough", apparently, that God honored him with writing many New Testament books, including THIS book, the Book of Romans.

But even at this point in his life, long after his conversion, near the end of his life, after years as a great missionary... Paul tells us that he still struggles with sin.

Struggling with sin doesn't necessarily mean he committed sin. Sin is at our doorstep daily, it is what we do that matters. Either we turn to sin or turn away from it.

 

[wanderer6059]

Paul makes it very clear that even AFTER being saved, and becoming a NEW CREATURE, he still struggled with sin.

Paul did not always have right thoughts, and he did not always do right things.

After you are saved you still sin at times, and still have bad thoughts at times, and still, therefore, make bad choices.


You never reach a point where you are SO PERFECT that you NO LONGER NEED GOD ACTING AS A WISE PARENT.
We still sin, and make wrong choices, after we are saved.
Therefore God, as a wise parent, CANNOT just give us everything we ask for.


Here Paul is talking about his continual struggle with sin, and how he sometimes still sins, and does the wrong things:
Rom 7:15 For that which I do I allow not: for what I would, that do I not; but what I hate, that do I.
Rom 7:16 If then I do that which I would not, I consent unto the law that it is good.
Rom 7:17 Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
Rom 7:18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not.
Rom 7:19 For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do.
Rom 7:20 Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
Rom 7:21 I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me.
Rom 7:22 For I delight in the law of God after the inward man:
Rom 7:23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.

our Spirit at conversion is instantly renewed by the blood of Jesus and seen by God as perfect. what paul is speaking of is the flesh that will never be made whole till the day we rise again, and the mind that must be renewed daily

 

[CeileDe]

Alright guys, you win for now... you've thoroughly exhausted me.
: )

Perhaps we'll pick it up again later.

God Bless,

God Bless Maxwel. Have a blessed weekend.

 

[wanderer6059]

This is in the Book of Romans.

This is written NEAR the END OF PAUL'S LIFE...
LONG after Paul's conversion on the road to Damascus.

At this point in time, Paul had been a full time missionary for many years, and he was "sanctified enough", apparently, that God honored him with writing many New Testament books, including THIS book, the Book of Romans.

But even at this point in his life, long after his conversion, near the end of his life, after years as a great missionary... Paul tells us that he still struggles with sin.

he also taught a lot on how to master it and what it took, just cause he struggled doesn't meen he consumed it...

 

[wanderer6059]

Alright guys, you win for now... you've thoroughly exhausted me.
: )

Perhaps we'll pick it up again later.

God Bless,

i hope you can respond to some of my post when you come back brother!

 

[HisHolly]

I know it's in Romans. To say you know beyond what is written, that he indeed sinned until death, is your assumption alone. Every other writing shows we can be Christ like..

This is in the Book of Romans.

This is written near the END OF PAUL'S LIFE...
LONG after Paul's conversion on the road to Damascus.

At this point in time, Paul had been a full time missionary for many years, and he was "sanctified enough", apparently, that God honored him with writing many New Testament books, including THIS book, the Book of Romans.

But even at this point in his life, long after his conversion, near the end of his life, after years as a great missionary... Paul tells us that he still struggles with sin.

 

[wanderer6059]

The wof I experienced tried desperately to fit everything into an equation or template that you could use to have needs of any sort fulfilled. This is the wof passed down from Hagin and Copeland.

thats not true brother, i go to Hagins school, ask me what is taught. i will tell you and you will see that what you have heard is wrong. we are not all nuts and its not un-biblical.

 

[HisHolly]

Do enjoy the remainder of your day!!

Alright guys, you win for now... you've thoroughly exhausted me.
: )

Perhaps we'll pick it up again later.

God Bless,

 

[bluto]

thats not true brother, i go to Hagins school, ask me what is taught. i will tell you and you will see that what you have heard is wrong. we are not all nuts and its not un-biblical.

So wanderer, have you seen any of the following videos of wof teachers and preachers? Secondly, do you know the history of wof teachings and who was instramental in starting the wof movement? Largest Audio/Video library of Pentecostal Manifestation Heresy in the world!

IN GOD THE SON,
bluto

 

[wanderer6059]

I never said that "He absolutely won't do something."

I said that God does as HE pleases, and does as HE wills.

He answers our prayers according to HIS will,and according to what HE believes is best.

As a parent, would you give your children EVERYTHING they ask for?
- Would you give you children candy for breakfast?
- Would you let your children stay up all night when they have school in the morning?
- Would you let your children go to bed without brushing their teeth?
- Would you let your children smoke cigarettes, or drink vodka, or stay out all night... or just do anything weird that popped into their heads?
OF COURSE YOU WOULDN'T !!!

God is a good parent.
God is the BEST parent.
Just as YOU would never give your children everything they ask for... neither would God.

I never said that "He absolutely will do something."

I said that God does as HE pleases, and does as HE wills.

He answers our prayers according to HIS will,and according to what HE says in the Word.

As a parent, would you give your children EVERYTHING you said you would, if they ask for it?
- Would you give you children food for breakfast if they asked?
- Would you let your children sleep sound when they have school in the morning if the asked for it?
- Would you let your children go to without a bed if they asked for it?
- Would you let your children spread you good name, help a friend, provide for those in need. and would you not help them do it when they ask you to?
OF COURSE YOU WOULD !!!

God is a good parent.
God is the BEST parent.
Just as YOU would give your children everything they ask for that is good... how much more will God. He gave His blood for you, you think if you ask He wont provide the simple needs of life!

 

[Angela53510]

i'm so sorry sister, i ask for forgiveness just for the group i am part of that has hurt you, but we are not all like that.

the healing class im in teaches that there are two streams to healing the supernatural, and the natural. they teach that it is not just about your faith, and it is a battle! that you fight against the enemy. you build scripture and you fight a war. yes some people are blessed and are healed instantly, i have a friend whos mom walked out of her wheel chair. but i went through a war with my mom, we saw the cancer ravage her, but we stood our ground and fought with Gods word, and after 3 long years we won our war.

if you would like to talk about WoF i am open, thought it might be easier to Pm than to do it here lol

I obviously did not give enough background on my encounters with the Word Faith, leading you to misunderstand me.

My friend who was originally a Pentecostal, at a very hard time in her life (her husband started sleeping around, then left her for another woman!) started getting involved with WoF. Since we were good friends, she gave me all the books she had been studying. This was back in about 1984-85.

I started with Kenyon, then moved onto Hagin, and then Copeland. Lots of Copeland, which is where my friend settled and got ordained. Of course, there are now newer people involved as leaders in this heresy, but I have not spend a lot of time studying them. My friend had been a mentor, when I was a young Christian, at first I did not realize how badly deceived she was. I talked this whole heresy over with another friend, who was a Catholic. Now, I have no use at all for the RCC, but she was wise in this regard. She had also been through the WF - given books, in her case, so her husband would stop drinking, sleeping around and get saved. It never happened.

She warned me to look at the other side and study the verses in these books in context. This was my first introduction to context. I still was not convinced the doctrine was wrong. But, on the other hand, I really had nothing wrong going on in my life, good jobs, marriage, wonderful family and no financial problems. So I never had to apply anything to my life.

Then, I got sick. Really sick. Really, really sick! And I couldn't get a diagnosis, because I was sero-negative, and the first 3 doctors seemed to be dreadfully uninformed about the fact that 30% of all people with RA are sero-negative. It was then, these two old friends, who had gotten totally wrapped up in Word Faith came back into my life, and were putting me down because I was not healed. We moved away to another province, but I kept in touch with both friends. That is when I heard of their health problems, and one friend died, because she refused treatment, and the other got medical treatment and is doing well.

In seminary, we did not actually study the Word Faith heresy. We seemed to keep to older, more established heresies. But I did learn the original languages, and good hermeneutics or Bible interpretation. Whenever this heresy came up in a forum, I would look deeper and deeper into why it was so wrong, and in fact evil, because of not just how emotionally damaged I was by the cruel remarks, but because my friend died, rather than get the offered help for her cancer.

Then a new friend, got sucked into Word Faith heresy, mainly from internet videos. Another friend and I spent a lot of time working with her, praying with and for her. I finally got the pamphlet "The Disease of the Health and Wealth Gospels" by Gordon D. Fee. He is one of the top Greek scholars in the world, and a life time Pentecostal. He carefully breaks down the lies and deceit in the Word Faith movement. I would suggest it would be a good pamphlet for you to read, and to start learning where the terrible errors in Bible interpretation the Word Faith movement lie.

So, thanks for your apology, but after 30 years of being aware of this heresy, you really have nothing to teach me! In fact, we really do need to get back into the Scriptures, perhaps in another thread, and I will show you exactly where your teachers have gone fatally wrong. The Greek and Hebrew are important, but the errors are easy to understand without more than a basic understanding of the original languages.

I would love to discuss the Bible verses, the basic ones that show how and why this is a heresy. However, I have nothing to lose, and I would like to do it publicly. That way, others who have been sucked into this lie from the devil, or have left the WoF movement, discouraged and despairing, can find out the Bible case against this terrible doctrine, from the pit of hell!

 

[wanderer6059]

So wanderer, have you seen any of the following videos of wof teachers and preachers? Secondly, do you know the history of wof teachings and who was instramental in starting the wof movement? Largest Audio/Video library of Pentecostal Manifestation Heresy in the world!

IN GOD THE SON,
bluto

i know the mistakes of our past, i know we have caused a lot of pain. but i see the path we are on, and it is the right direction, it is focused now and i see the will of God in it brother. some may still walk the wrong ways but i know my footsteps, i seek His will, i know i am human like them and will make my own mistakes brother, but no... no denomination is perfect, if you said yours im sure it has its own past.

 

[Grace777x70]

Originally Posted by CharlieGrown

The wof I experienced tried desperately to fit everything into an equation or template that you could use to have needs of any sort fulfilled. This is the wof passed down from Hagin and Copeland.

thats not true brother, i go to Hagins school, ask me what is taught. i will tell you and you will see that what you have heard is wrong. we are not all nuts and its not un-biblical.

I think some have interpreted some things as being an equation and some other teachers may have presented it that way and not articulated things in a more concise manner too.

I will say that I have listened to hundreds of hours in the 80's and 90's from Hagin and personally heard him teach many times and he was anointed to teach on faith and how to be led by the Holy Spirit. ( I have listened to very little teaching from Copeland so I have no idea what he taught back then or even now )

I think where things got off is when we started to only think of faith in terms of "getting things", instead now the emphasis is on believing the works of Christ - like He is our righteousness.

There was also very little teaching on the grace of God or the actual gospel back in those times and I have to agree with a lot of the folks here in that there was a lot of condemnation - perhaps not from all teachers but the prevailing attitude back then was condemnation.

I believe God is changing that now and marrying the faith truths and how to be led by the Spirit of God truths that were taught to help us to believe in the finished works of Christ - like He is our righteousness - that we are a new creation in Christ.

That we are beloved children, blessed and blameless in the Father's sight. That we are one spirit with the Lord in Christ now. That we have died and our life is hidden with Christ in God now.

 

[CeileDe]

I obviously did not give enough background on my encounters with the Word Faith, leading you to misunderstand me.

My friend who was originally a Pentecostal, at a very hard time in her life (her husband started sleeping around, then left her for another woman!) started getting involved with WoF. Since we were good friends, she gave me all the books she had been studying. This was back in about 1984-85.

I started with Kenyon, then moved onto Hagin, and then Copeland. Lots of Copeland, which is where my friend settled and got ordained. Of course, there are now newer people involved as leaders in this heresy, but I have not spend a lot of time studying them. My friend had been a mentor, when I was a young Christian, at first I did not realize how badly deceived she was. I talked this whole heresy over with another friend, who was a Catholic. Now, I have no use at all for the RCC, but she was wise in this regard. She had also been through the WF - given books, in her case, so her husband would stop drinking, sleeping around and get saved. It never happened.

She warned me to look at the other side and study the verses in these books in context. This was my first introduction to context. I still was not convinced the doctrine was wrong. But, on the other hand, I really had nothing wrong going on in my life, good jobs, marriage, wonderful family and no financial problems. So I never had to apply anything to my life.

Then, I got sick. Really sick. Really, really sick! And I couldn't get a diagnosis, because I was sero-negative, and the first 3 doctors seemed to be dreadfully uninformed about the fact that 30% of all people with RA are sero-negative. It was then, these two old friends, who had gotten totally wrapped up in Word Faith came back into my life, and were putting me down because I was not healed. We moved away to another province, but I kept in touch with both friends. That is when I heard of their health problems, and one friend died, because she refused treatment, and the other got medical treatment and is doing well.

In seminary, we did not actually study the Word Faith heresy. We seemed to keep to older, more established heresies. But I did learn the original languages, and good hermeneutics or Bible interpretation. Whenever this heresy came up in a forum, I would look deeper and deeper into why it was so wrong, and in fact evil, because of not just how emotionally damaged I was by the cruel remarks, but because my friend died, rather than get the offered help for her cancer.

Then a new friend, got sucked into Word Faith heresy, mainly from internet videos. Another friend and I spent a lot of time working with her, praying with and for her. I finally got the pamphlet "The Disease of the Health and Wealth Gospels" by Gordon D. Fee. He is one of the top Greek scholars in the world, and a life time Pentecostal. He carefully breaks down the lies and deceit in the Word Faith movement. I would suggest it would be a good pamphlet for you to read, and to start learning where the terrible errors in Bible interpretation the Word Faith movement lie.

So, thanks for your apology, but after 30 years of being aware of this heresy, you really have nothing to teach me! In fact, we really do need to get back into the Scriptures, perhaps in another thread, and I will show you exactly where your teachers have gone fatally wrong. The Greek and Hebrew are important, but the errors are easy to understand without more than a basic understanding of the original languages.

I would love to discuss the Bible verses, the basic ones that show how and why this is a heresy. However, I have nothing to lose, and I would like to do it publicly. That way, others who have been sucked into this lie from the devil, or have left the WoF movement, discouraged and despairing, can find out the Bible case against this terrible doctrine, from the pit of hell!

I love you sister but I 100% disagree with you that we need to learn Hebrew or Greek to understand scripture. It is awesome that you have spent time doing this but it isn't necessary And I disagree with the use of the heresy word. Is it heresy to want to be healed and believe that God will heal you? Is it heresy to believe that God will bring someone out of poverty or help them with a bill? I just don't get why so many throw the heresy word around so much.

 

[wanderer6059]

I obviously did not give enough background on my encounters with the Word Faith, leading you to misunderstand me.

My friend who was originally a Pentecostal, at a very hard time in her life (her husband started sleeping around, then left her for another woman!) started getting involved with WoF. Since we were good friends, she gave me all the books she had been studying. This was back in about 1984-85.

I started with Kenyon, then moved onto Hagin, and then Copeland. Lots of Copeland, which is where my friend settled and got ordained. Of course, there are now newer people involved as leaders in this heresy, but I have not spend a lot of time studying them. My friend had been a mentor, when I was a young Christian, at first I did not realize how badly deceived she was. I talked this whole heresy over with another friend, who was a Catholic. Now, I have no use at all for the RCC, but she was wise in this regard. She had also been through the WF - given books, in her case, so her husband would stop drinking, sleeping around and get saved. It never happened.

She warned me to look at the other side and study the verses in these books in context. This was my first introduction to context. I still was not convinced the doctrine was wrong. But, on the other hand, I really had nothing wrong going on in my life, good jobs, marriage, wonderful family and no financial problems. So I never had to apply anything to my life.

Then, I got sick. Really sick. Really, really sick! And I couldn't get a diagnosis, because I was sero-negative, and the first 3 doctors seemed to be dreadfully uninformed about the fact that 30% of all people with RA are sero-negative. It was then, these two old friends, who had gotten totally wrapped up in Word Faith came back into my life, and were putting me down because I was not healed. We moved away to another province, but I kept in touch with both friends. That is when I heard of their health problems, and one friend died, because she refused treatment, and the other got medical treatment and is doing well.

In seminary, we did not actually study the Word Faith heresy. We seemed to keep to older, more established heresies. But I did learn the original languages, and good hermeneutics or Bible interpretation. Whenever this heresy came up in a forum, I would look deeper and deeper into why it was so wrong, and in fact evil, because of not just how emotionally damaged I was by the cruel remarks, but because my friend died, rather than get the offered help for her cancer.

Then a new friend, got sucked into Word Faith heresy, mainly from internet videos. Another friend and I spent a lot of time working with her, praying with and for her. I finally got the pamphlet "The Disease of the Health and Wealth Gospels" by Gordon D. Fee. He is one of the top Greek scholars in the world, and a life time Pentecostal. He carefully breaks down the lies and deceit in the Word Faith movement. I would suggest it would be a good pamphlet for you to read, and to start learning where the terrible errors in Bible interpretation the Word Faith movement lie.

So, thanks for your apology, but after 30 years of being aware of this heresy, you really have nothing to teach me! In fact, we really do need to get back into the Scriptures, perhaps in another thread, and I will show you exactly where your teachers have gone fatally wrong. The Greek and Hebrew are important, but the errors are easy to understand without more than a basic understanding of the original languages.

I would love to discuss the Bible verses, the basic ones that show how and why this is a heresy. However, I have nothing to lose, and I would like to do it publicly. That way, others who have been sucked into this lie from the devil, or have left the WoF movement, discouraged and despairing, can find out the Bible case against this terrible doctrine, from the pit of hell!

ok sister, i would love to. could you tell me where the WoF takes scripter out of context on Healing, Necessity being met, Confession, Faith, and the Word in general out of context?

 

[kaylagrl]

again ignorance assuming what i believe, you should ask me, or heck ask me to justify what i believe, dont just wright me off.

Ok,
lets try this again. You believe WOF. Right? And WOF has a set of beliefs. So are you WOF or are you saying you disagree with them. I dont need you to defend it,we know what WOF believes,you'd just be restating that.

 

[Grace777x70]

Whenever we as people have had a bad experience with something - we will be very passionate about avoiding it and thus calling everything to do with it as evil.

Try to convince someone that was abused by a minister when they were young that God is for them - and they will be violently against God because they equate the bad experience with God.

These types of things always will bring some emotion and if we have had a bad experience then there may be some bitterness and malice that is still with us when the topic comes up. I know I have had it before in other areas and it is just the flesh acting up and we are yielding to it.

In the same token - we are allowed to have different thoughts and beliefs on some subjects and healing is a non-essential. I agree that to call the whole thing as heresy is not very wise as it does not qualify for heresy. It is merely a difference of opinion.

Sometimes in things like these we need to allow the other to have their own opinion without de-meaning them or maligning them.

We can agree to disagree and still be respectful of the others involved. This scripture below would work perfectly in these types of situations.

Romans 14:22 (NASB)
[SUP]22 [/SUP] The faith which you have, have as your own conviction before God. Happy is he who does not condemn himself in what he approves.