Behavior wise - there's a sin that the atheists love and don't want to confess it as a sin. I hate to bring this into the discussion, but homosexuality seems to be a great example of this. Or getting drunk, or having sex before marriage.
Thanks for your thoughtful responses, Megaman.
If you could see me I have a bit of a grin. I am guilty of two of those, but not the first.
Why would these behaviours be evidence that Christians become atheists so they can partake in these activities? My guess, and I have no data on this, but I suspect far more Christians engage in these activities than ever become atheists. In my case I committed both these activities long after I became an atheist. Truth be told I got drunk for the first time in my 40s (my marriage went south and I couldn't quite handle it).
megaman125 said:
As for key questions - I would start with something like this. Say that we gave you enough evidence where you would say, "Ok, I have enough evidence, and I believe God exists." My question to you would be, would you worship God? Why or why not?
If you were able to persuade me that God was real, then yes. I believe I would worship him.
I am sure some atheists might give you a smart alec response. I am more interested in having a proper discussion.
megaman125 said:
Well, I'm not sure I really believe that atheists truely think that.
They do think that, actually. If God doesn't really exist the idea of him had to come from somewhere. Atheists assume human created him, not as J.K. Rolling created Harry Potter, but as the Greeks created Zeus. I say that knowing that some Christians think Zeus was actually a demon, but I use this analogy as an atheist who thinks most Christians simply believe Zeus never existed.
megaman125 said:
Perhaps I just borrow from my views from when I was an atheist and project those onto other atheists too much.
I do that all that time which is why I will sometimes add, "I think."
megaman125 said:
For instance, when I was an atheist and was taught the big bang, I didn't believe it. I found it more rational to believe that the universe has a creator (in some form or another) than to believe the universe does not have a creator at all.
I continued to believe in ghosts for about 10 years after I became an atheist. I do know one atheist who does not believe in evolution. Don't ask me to explain his hypothesis -- it is very odd. I am not convinced of the Big Bang myself. I am partial to Fred Hoyle's Steady State hypothesis. Oh, Hoyle derisively called the opposition to his hypothesis the Big Bang, and the name it stuck.
megaman125 said:
I do tend to extend this to others in the sense that I don't believe anyone really thinks it's rational to believe the universe has no creator.
We can talk about that more. I'm starting to run out of time for posting.
megaman125 said:
Perhaps you're right, maybe I should look at some atheist testimonies and maybe I can get a better sense of why they're atheists.
It's interesting, if nothing else. What surprised me was that only a very small number sounded similar to my experience. I guess I was expecting most to think like me. I have only ever came across one atheist whose reason for losing belief was pretty much identical to mine.
megaman125 said:
I do have a few conclusions I've come to thus far, some of which I deem to be more plausable than not.
1. Atheists don't believe in God because of "science." (I don't deem this one to be that plausable, but still slightly plausable enough that I will acknowledge it)
That's not far off the mark for some. Richard Dawkins says his belief in God fell away after he learned about evolution, but he's the only one I can recall naming that specifically.
megaman125 said:
2. Atheists don't believe in God because God didn't give them that new bike they wanted when they were a kid. This one can come in a lot of varieties, but it's basically them not getting what they want from God on their demand, as if God is supposed to be some kind of wish granting genie. This view of God and not getting what they want can very easily be linked to pride.
There you go with pride again.
You know, I think you may be on to something here, at least for some people, but making it a bike trivializes it. It's more likely, 'I will believe if you cure my child of cancer.'
megaman125 said:
3. Atheists had a bad experience in their lives, or maybe even were hurt by someone at church, and as a result, left the church and turned from God.
That's possible too (I have more to add but am out of time).
megaman125 said:
4. There's a sin they like and don't want to confess that it's a sin because they don't believe it should be. In other words, they believe God is wrong about what should/shouldn't be a sin and they are right. This is the pride I've been talking about.
In my own experience and understanding from those I've talked with, I don't think this one is very likely; but who knows, maybe some have thought that way.
megaman125 said:
If there are other reasons, please share some of them with me, or link me to some testimonies you think would be good for me to read. Please note, I do not consider the "God is evil" argument to be plausable, hence I didn't list it above.
But it is not how you feel; what matters is what compels others. What you think might not turn anyone from God, might in fact be just such a motivator. The Canadian journalist, Gordon Sinclair (now deceased), made this assertion on television. I heard him, and it stunned me, because he was the first public personality who I ever heard to acknowledge being an atheist. You can't rule anything out.
megaman125 said:
Fair point, but I think we're talking about 2 slightly different things. You say they don't become atheists because of pride, but that's not quite what I'm talking about. I'm saying they won't make the transition from atheist to Christian because of pride and how they don't want to confess their sins (see #4 on my list above).
Right, sinning doesn't produce atheists. If that were so, then we'd all be atheists because we're all sinners. However, there is a difference between how Christians treat their sin and how atheists treat/view it.
Will have to chat more later. I am interested in these ideas but I am out of time.