atheists

[letti]

I will agree with you saying that part of one becoming atheist because of anger for God is not really it.I'f they truly don't.believe that is different.My son believes and says he just does not care.He says he does not see the point in it.This hurts me but he is determined in his point of view.I can only pray for him since all other efforts so far are not working.

 

[letti]

Also,I can tell you my son says he is angry with God and that is why he doesn't care.Sad to me.

 

[megaman125]

Some might still be trying to convince themselves, you’re right. As Christians like to point out, the penalty of being wrong is eternal damnation – at least, that is the fear. In the early years of my atheism I spent a lot of time assuring myself I wasn’t wrong.

That seems rather odd to me, from both the Christian and atheist perspective. From the Christian perspective, there's no need to fear hell since we're not going there. (Paraphrasing 1 John 4, specifically verse 18)

Just don’t make the mistake of assuming all atheists are like me.

Oh of course not. In fact, I'd be more likely to put you in the 1% of atheists, the ones that I love talking with. Atheists like that seem to be so few and far between.

No, it lends no support to the Christian claim that the Bible is true, it is only evidence that certain people fear it might be true.

Granted. It's not like I would actually use that as an argument in favor of Christianity, just a quirky inconsistency among atheists I like to point out.

My goodness! No, I have never possessed violent tendencies. I can’t identify with that.

Well that's good. I wouldn't want anyone to be like I was when I was an atheist.

Indeed, undesirable for sure! With all due respect, I would suggest that these emotions were simply part of your personality, and were not a result of your atheism. Perhaps your belief in God does help you to control those emotions. Christianity might act like a soothing tonic for you.

And from having lived me life, I'd say you're sorta on the right track with this idea, but not quite. I had some thing about myself that literally changed overnight when I had a group of people lay hands on me and pray for evil spirits to be cast out in the name of Jesus. I wouldn't say those past emotions were part of my atheism though (I'd just say atheism wasn't offering me any soloutions), nor would I say Christianity is just merely a soothing tonic, considering that some of the things that got changed about me were things I never wanted or intended to change.

I really don’t believe that people become atheists because they are essentially angry with God.

Actually, I do know a few Christians that stopped believing and went over to atheism for a while after they had some tramatic event happen (ex. losing a parent while they were a teenager). You could make a case that they weren't really atheists, but since we don't know everything about another person's life, we wouldn't be able to make a solid conclusion either way.

 

[SweetSavour]

Also,I can tell you my son says he is angry with God and that is why he doesn't care.Sad to me.

Angry at God?

Among many other ad hominem style arguments, apologists often assert that atheists are actually angry at God.

While a very small number of atheists claim to have deconverted based on being angry at God, a person who remains angry at God is not an atheist. To be angry at something, you must believe in it. This indicates a basic misunderstanding about the meaning of the word "atheist." On the other hand, it may simply be a veiled attempt to invoke the notion that there are no atheists.

 

[Cycel]

Behavior wise - there's a sin that the atheists love and don't want to confess it as a sin. I hate to bring this into the discussion, but homosexuality seems to be a great example of this. Or getting drunk, or having sex before marriage.

Thanks for your thoughtful responses, Megaman.

If you could see me I have a bit of a grin. I am guilty of two of those, but not the first.

Why would these behaviours be evidence that Christians become atheists so they can partake in these activities? My guess, and I have no data on this, but I suspect far more Christians engage in these activities than ever become atheists. In my case I committed both these activities long after I became an atheist. Truth be told I got drunk for the first time in my 40s (my marriage went south and I couldn't quite handle it).

As for key questions - I would start with something like this. Say that we gave you enough evidence where you would say, "Ok, I have enough evidence, and I believe God exists." My question to you would be, would you worship God? Why or why not?

If you were able to persuade me that God was real, then yes. I believe I would worship him.

I am sure some atheists might give you a smart alec response. I am more interested in having a proper discussion.

Well, I'm not sure I really believe that atheists truely think that.

They do think that, actually. If God doesn't really exist the idea of him had to come from somewhere. Atheists assume human created him, not as J.K. Rolling created Harry Potter, but as the Greeks created Zeus. I say that knowing that some Christians think Zeus was actually a demon, but I use this analogy as an atheist who thinks most Christians simply believe Zeus never existed.

Perhaps I just borrow from my views from when I was an atheist and project those onto other atheists too much.

I do that all that time which is why I will sometimes add, "I think."

For instance, when I was an atheist and was taught the big bang, I didn't believe it. I found it more rational to believe that the universe has a creator (in some form or another) than to believe the universe does not have a creator at all.

I continued to believe in ghosts for about 10 years after I became an atheist. I do know one atheist who does not believe in evolution. Don't ask me to explain his hypothesis -- it is very odd. I am not convinced of the Big Bang myself. I am partial to Fred Hoyle's Steady State hypothesis. Oh, Hoyle derisively called the opposition to his hypothesis the Big Bang, and the name it stuck.

I do tend to extend this to others in the sense that I don't believe anyone really thinks it's rational to believe the universe has no creator.

We can talk about that more. I'm starting to run out of time for posting.

Perhaps you're right, maybe I should look at some atheist testimonies and maybe I can get a better sense of why they're atheists.

It's interesting, if nothing else. What surprised me was that only a very small number sounded similar to my experience. I guess I was expecting most to think like me. I have only ever came across one atheist whose reason for losing belief was pretty much identical to mine.

I do have a few conclusions I've come to thus far, some of which I deem to be more plausable than not.

1. Atheists don't believe in God because of "science." (I don't deem this one to be that plausable, but still slightly plausable enough that I will acknowledge it)

That's not far off the mark for some. Richard Dawkins says his belief in God fell away after he learned about evolution, but he's the only one I can recall naming that specifically.

2. Atheists don't believe in God because God didn't give them that new bike they wanted when they were a kid. This one can come in a lot of varieties, but it's basically them not getting what they want from God on their demand, as if God is supposed to be some kind of wish granting genie. This view of God and not getting what they want can very easily be linked to pride.

There you go with pride again.

You know, I think you may be on to something here, at least for some people, but making it a bike trivializes it. It's more likely, 'I will believe if you cure my child of cancer.'

3. Atheists had a bad experience in their lives, or maybe even were hurt by someone at church, and as a result, left the church and turned from God.

That's possible too (I have more to add but am out of time).

4. There's a sin they like and don't want to confess that it's a sin because they don't believe it should be. In other words, they believe God is wrong about what should/shouldn't be a sin and they are right. This is the pride I've been talking about.

In my own experience and understanding from those I've talked with, I don't think this one is very likely; but who knows, maybe some have thought that way.

If there are other reasons, please share some of them with me, or link me to some testimonies you think would be good for me to read. Please note, I do not consider the "God is evil" argument to be plausable, hence I didn't list it above.

But it is not how you feel; what matters is what compels others. What you think might not turn anyone from God, might in fact be just such a motivator. The Canadian journalist, Gordon Sinclair (now deceased), made this assertion on television. I heard him, and it stunned me, because he was the first public personality who I ever heard to acknowledge being an atheist. You can't rule anything out.

Fair point, but I think we're talking about 2 slightly different things. You say they don't become atheists because of pride, but that's not quite what I'm talking about. I'm saying they won't make the transition from atheist to Christian because of pride and how they don't want to confess their sins (see #4 on my list above).

Right, sinning doesn't produce atheists. If that were so, then we'd all be atheists because we're all sinners. However, there is a difference between how Christians treat their sin and how atheists treat/view it.

Will have to chat more later. I am interested in these ideas but I am out of time.

 

[Starcrash]

Keep in mind the Bible also says not to cast the pearls before the swine. I also hold the opinion (which may or may not be accurate), that when it comes to the group I classify as the 99%, I don't believe there's anything I could say that could "push them further away from God," because I don't believe that's a thing for these people. I believe they're as far away from God as they want to me. (Again, that's just my opinion.)

As for treating them how I want to be treated. If I came on here way back when I was an atheist, I would have loved it for someone to speak to me boldly, and even a bit harsh. It would certainly be memorable, and they might have even gotten me so fired up that I'd be daring enough to take a challenge such as "go to a Christian church, or find a group of Christians, and ask them to lay hands on you and pray to have evil spirits cast out in the name of Jesus Christ," just to try and prove them wrong. But maybe that's just my style, which may or may not work for others, and that's ok.

Refuting parts of the bible with other parts of the bible doesn't make us atheists see that "the bible is right", but rather that the "bible is self-refuting" or (at best) "the bible is confusing". But I like the proverb about casting pearls before swine... atheists often use a quote by Thomas Paine (a historical American atheist) that says a very similar thing: "To argue with a man who has renounced the use and authority of reason... is like administering medicine to the dead...." In either case, we're talking about arguing with someone who won't change his or her mind, not about whether or not you should argue ever. Reasonable people can hold useful discussions. Just because you think you're talking to "swine" doesn't mean that you should sling mud, because that will just make you look like "swine" yourself. Offering pearls of wisdom will make it obvious that you prefer pearls, and perhaps you'll get them in return.

But your reply was nice. No name-calling or attempts to be hurtful, which made it productive (in my opinion).

 

[SweetSavour]

If you were able to persuade me that God was real, then yes. I believe I would worship him.

Why would you worship something just because it exists? Honestly, requiring worship means that
one must have less than desirable personality traits like being very insecure or full of yourself.
Just like the dictator in North Korea.

Honestly, why does God need worship anyway? He's God.

So, Cycel, mere existence means worthy of worship? Huh?

 

[megaman125]

Refuting parts of the bible with other parts of the bible doesn't make us atheists see that "the bible is right", but rather that the "bible is self-refuting" or (at best) "the bible is confusing". But I like the proverb about casting pearls before swine... atheists often use a quote by Thomas Paine (a historical American atheist) that says a very similar thing: "To argue with a man who has renounced the use and authority of reason... is like administering medicine to the dead...." In either case, we're talking about arguing with someone who won't change his or her mind, not about whether or not you should argue ever. Reasonable people can hold useful discussions. Just because you think you're talking to "swine" doesn't mean that you should sling mud, because that will just make you look like "swine" yourself. Offering pearls of wisdom will make it obvious that you prefer pearls, and perhaps you'll get them in return.

But your reply was nice. No name-calling or attempts to be hurtful, which made it productive (in my opinion).

Not sure how you can draw a conclusion that the Bible is self-refuting when two people quote the Bible as a rebuke to each other. Heck, Satan quoted Scripture, and Jesus responded by doing the same, and it doesn't make the Bible "self-refuting" in any way. (see Luke 4) All it means is that people can twist and misuse the Bible. And that's not a concept that's exclusive to the Bible. You can see people misquoting others, twisting other people's words all the time. And for the record, I didn't contest that I wasn't being the kindest towards atheists.

 

[megaman125]

Why would these behaviours be evidence that Christians become atheists so they can partake in these activities? My guess, and I have no data on this, but I suspect far more Christians engage in these activities than ever become atheists. In my case I committed both these activities long after I became an atheist. Truth be told I got drunk for the first time in my 40s (my marriage went south and I couldn't quite handle it).

It's not the behavoir or just doing the sin once, but their response and attitude towards it. This relates to what I was talking about at the end of my other post, about how they view/treat their sin (or how Christian's are supposed to treat it). If a person does not view their sin as a sin, and does not confess it as a sin and ask for forgiveness, that's a huge indication of a pride issue. Heck, pride factored right into the first sin of mankind, with Adam and Eve. They listened to the deceiver, questioned God's word, and because of their pride, thought that they knew better than God and it was ok to do what God told them not to.

If you were able to persuade me that God was real, then yes. I believe I would worship him.

I am sure some atheists might give you a smart alec response. I am more interested in having a proper discussion.

Usually I don't get a smart alec response from that question. More people will say "No, because God is evil" or "No, because I don't believe he's worthy of worship."

Since you said yes to the question, that sorta stops the direction I was going with that (can't say I was expecting you to say no though). Usually, I'll present a challenge to those who say no, but that challenge isn't relevant for you, or at least, I don't have nearly enough info to determine if that challenge would be for you.

I continued to believe in ghosts for about 10 years after I became an atheist. I do know one atheist who does not believe in evolution. Don't ask me to explain his hypothesis -- it is very odd. I am not convinced of the Big Bang myself. I am partial to Fred Hoyle's Steady State hypothesis. Oh, Hoyle derisively called the opposition to his hypothesis the Big Bang, and the name it stuck.

Yeah, I've met a couple atheists that deny the big bang, or evolution. They are indeed rare, but they're out there.

That's not far off the mark for some. Richard Dawkins says his belief in God fell away after he learned about evolution, but he's the only one I can recall naming that specifically.

Well, here's part of why I don't buy into the whole "I don't believe in God because science..." There is a Christian perspective to all the "science" claims that allegedly disprove the Bible. It may not be a popular view, and it may not get the peer review stamp from the evolutionists, but it is there and it is a perspective some (including myself) believe.

You know, I think you may be on to something here, at least for some people, but making it a bike trivializes it. It's more likely, 'I will believe if you cure my child of cancer.'

Yeah, the bike thing trivializes it, but I was going for the selfish demands perspective.

But it is not how you feel; what matters is what compels others. What you think might not turn anyone from God, might in fact be just such a motivator. The Canadian journalist, Gordon Sinclair (now deceased), made this assertion on television. I heard him, and it stunned me, because he was the first public personality who I ever heard to acknowledge being an atheist. You can't rule anything out.

That's an interesting thought.

Will have to chat more later. I am interested in these ideas but I am out of time.

Yeah, I like chatting with you. We should start up our own topic, because we're kinda just drifting away from the other discussions here and kinda going off on our own. I say let's move over to the Miscellaneous forum, that's usually where I frequent on this site. I'll let you make the topic when you're ready, as you're sorta the one in the driver's seat for where we're going.

 

[letti]

I never said my sons anger states his is atheist,he said he believes in GOD and does not about GOD.He said MOM you love God but I just don't care.You misunderstood me SweetSavour.

 

[letti]

So,I can't even type correctly right now,once again he believes in God,but does not care and admits anger towards God.

 

[letti]

I am in no way asserting the false claim against me,SweetSavour I never said Atheist Belief stems from anger towards God.

 

[Imperfect]

Angry at God?

Among many other ad hominem style arguments, apologists often assert that atheists are actually angry at God.

While a very small number of atheists claim to have deconverted based on being angry at God, a person who remains angry at God is not an atheist. To be angry at something, you must believe in it. This indicates a basic misunderstanding about the meaning of the word "atheist." On the other hand, it may simply be a veiled attempt to invoke the notion that there are no atheists.

but we are talking about atheists here.

i cant even count how many times i heard and / or saw an atheist time and time again, blame God for tragedies, unfortunate events, murders, killings, rapes, kidnappings, etc. etc.

these same atheists show much anger and blame toward God, but then turn around and say Hes not real.


this is fact. real life experiences.

 

[letti]

Not being truly convinced isn't that the same as disbelief.Well,I can say this much concerning some people that are atheist,now remember the key Word ''SOME ATHEISTS" make the claim they once believed in God.I knew such a person once,now it is my belief that this often happens to those not truly convinced of the belief in God to begin with.I'f belief is strong faith is then this won't happen.Usually it takes them turning from God while maintaining only a maybe attitude not totally convinced completely.Circumstances arise that add to the doubt they already have ,to convince them that the doubts they feel must mean God is not real.

 

[letti]

The person I once knew was full of anger.Saying if God was real why this and why that.I said freewill that is why.

 

[APebbleThrown]

but we are talking about atheists here.

i cant even count how many times i heard and / or saw an atheist time and time again, blame God for tragedies, unfortunate events, murders, killings, rapes, kidnappings, etc. etc.

these same atheists show much anger and blame toward God, but then turn around and say Hes not real.


this is fact. real life experiences.

Yeah I've never made sense of that approach, to blame god for those things would be to acknowledge his existence.

I do bring up evils an atrocities, but in the context of "well if you believe that, then how do you feel about (insert atrocity here)"

It's the grey area that gets me, the unexplainable things. Like I said in another thread where I said he's more than willing to cure someones tooth ache but isn't willing to cure a 5 year old child with AIDS. Now I ain't attempting to bring that discussion into this thread at all. But if those testimonies are true about how he helps out in minor ways then there's all the more reason to ask why he isn't doing the major things. If proof slapped me in the face tomorrow and there was no doubt he was real then I still wouldn't have total faith in his abilities becaue i cant see anything he's done on a large scale that has helped rhe millions suffering around the world. And that's not me trying to be clever or controversial or offensive. I'm just calling it as I see it.

 

[VanIsland]

@megaman125



I’m not sure about others, but what I want or prefer has no bearing on what is or is not true. Sure, the idea of a paradise after I die on this world sounds great & I can see the comfort people have believing in it. But preference has no bearing on it being true. Either something is demonstrated as true or false (or it is unresolvable) based on the evidence we have.

 

[VanIsland]

@megaman125



"Behavior wise - there's a sin that the atheists love and don't want to confess it as a sin.” --> atheists are not a united group. The only thing that all atheists have in common is that they don’t believe in any gods (and the conviction and certainty behind that varies from atheist to atheist). Similarly you as a theist do not represent all theists. A muslim, Hindu, etc would probably claim you are a poor representative because theism is not a united group.

"homosexuality seems to be a great example of this” --> I see nothing wrong with it as it is a natural phenomenon throughout the animal kingdom. Now Natural does not necessarily imply it is moral. If you can provide a reason for me to consider it immoral that goes beyond cultural taboos, personal opinion, etc. I’m all ears. Furthermore, Just because I see nothing wrong doesn’t mean I participate. I’m heterosexual.

"Getting drunk” --> Waste of money, bad for your health, altogether an unpleasant experience. Save up, buy a nice single malt and enjoy it in moderation.

"having sex before marriage.” --> I see this as a personal choice. I know atheists who are celibate, I know some that are active and I know some who are waiting till marriage.

"If there are other reasons (for being an atheist), please share some of them with me” --> I hold myself to a high ethical standard and value my personal integiry. I cannot accept your religion as true because it has not been demonstrated as true. The same is said for the idea of a god in general. I am an atheist, but if we want to be really technical, I am an agnostic atheist.

 

[VanIsland]

@letti



"it is my belief that this often happens to those not truly convinced of the belief in God to begin with.” --> its entirely possible that some individuals who make the claim “I was a christian” were not fully convinced; but it would be fallacious to suggest that all atheists were unconvinced. I, for example, was a christian. I was fully convinced and for a time in my life, my faith and perceived relationship with god was the most important thing to me. I thought I would always be a christian, I never even considered the possibility of any alternative view being correct.

 

[megaman125]

@megaman125



I’m not sure about others, but what I want or prefer has no bearing on what is or is not true. Sure, the idea of a paradise after I die on this world sounds great & I can see the comfort people have believing in it. But preference has no bearing on it being true. Either something is demonstrated as true or false (or it is unresolvable) based on the evidence we have.

Oh if I had a dime for every time I've heard that...

Also, don't think that Christians only believe the Bible becuase they just hope heaven exists because it sounds nice. To think that's the only reason people believe the Bible is very ignorant.