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Cahtym was banned for her abusive remarks and bashing Christian beliefs. You can call that hypocrisy if you want but I call it wisdom. You arguments were narrow minded filled with animus. Cathym's arguments were pedestrian at best. Even posting "Hitler was a Catholic and killed million.." is a hate filled childish argument filled with the venom of intolerance and bigotry. Stalin was an atheist and killed 4 million more than Hitler, does that prove atheism is evil? Certainly not. Nor would I ever use such a simplistic argument to bash all atheists.
So Cathym, please understand this. You threw acid in our faces and we are to politely take it? Of course not, but then you brand us all as hypocrites for getting angry. Cathym, I for one am pleased you were banned as you completely deserved it.
So Cathym, please understand this. You threw acid in our faces and we are to politely take it? Of course not, but then you brand us all as hypocrites for getting angry. Cathym, I for one am pleased you were banned as you completely deserved it.
To be fair, I do agree with what he said about dogmatism and getting so caught up in details that you miss the forest for the trees.
Zone, hi. I read your post, and I understand, fairly, the specifics of what God considers 'good', however, I also carry a different viewpoint than you on what the excerpt you posted says. Call it looking with a different hue.
I dont find logic in the idea that humans are wholly responsible for being in the state of imperfection in the first place, nor that a creator should consider our imperfection to be such a shameful thing, simply because, considering that during our design, an omnipotent and onmiescent creator would have forseen such a hiccup and had he wished so, implemented procedures to prevent it. Yet the creator did not implement those plans. Therefore, either the creator is a sadist (doubtful), or we are as we are meant to be.
I believe that such a creator would have made imperfection in us for a reason, and knowing our imperfection, the logic would then proceed to suggest that, regarding the idea of hell, either;
1. The creator predestines most of humanity for hell
2. Many religious folk have the wrong image of the creator.
Zone, hi. I read your post, and I understand, fairly, the specifics of what God considers 'good', however, I also carry a different viewpoint than you on what the excerpt you posted says. Call it looking with a different hue.
I dont find logic in the idea that humans are wholly responsible for being in the state of imperfection in the first place, nor that a creator should consider our imperfection to be such a shameful thing, simply because, considering that during our design, an omnipotent and onmiescent creator would have forseen such a hiccup and had he wished so, implemented procedures to prevent it. Yet the creator did not implement those plans. Therefore, either the creator is a sadist (doubtful), or we are as we are meant to be.
I believe that such a creator would have made imperfection in us for a reason, and knowing our imperfection, the logic would then proceed to suggest that, regarding the idea of hell, either;
1. The creator predestines most of humanity for hell
2. Many religious folk have the wrong image of the creator.
I am sure that Jesus cares very little for the specifics of dogma but feels immense sympathy for the people attached to it. To my view, Jesus didn't die to gain the approval of men, nor to gain the professions of people eager to enter into a plain of everlasting light and pleasure.
What he did die for was something so profound and selfless that it goes beyond religious divide. In fact I believe that was much of the point.
To die without regard for oneself for the sake of others is an act that shows a mind so attuned to reality that these kind of discussions almost mock it.
Should I believe that Jesus only died for the people that believe he died for them alone? Or should I believe that a man who would give his life to save the world intended just that; to save the world, regardless of what he may gain in return?
I believe in Jesus, and I believe in the creator. But for many reasons I'm not religious.
I believe in the Buddha too. I read things and see profound realizations that I hadnt before. The same with many people. People Ive met. My parents. Friends. Teachers. Grandparents. Aunts. Uncles.
There's too much around to understand for me to confine myself to only one book.
What he did die for was something so profound and selfless that it goes beyond religious divide. In fact I believe that was much of the point.
To die without regard for oneself for the sake of others is an act that shows a mind so attuned to reality that these kind of discussions almost mock it.
Should I believe that Jesus only died for the people that believe he died for them alone? Or should I believe that a man who would give his life to save the world intended just that; to save the world, regardless of what he may gain in return?
I believe in Jesus, and I believe in the creator. But for many reasons I'm not religious.
I believe in the Buddha too. I read things and see profound realizations that I hadnt before. The same with many people. People Ive met. My parents. Friends. Teachers. Grandparents. Aunts. Uncles.
There's too much around to understand for me to confine myself to only one book.
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lol patient.
you should either believe what the bible says about Jesus, or just say you are a universalist.
John 3:18
Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God.
Mark 16:16
Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned.
and so on. you know the passages.
you should either believe what the bible says about Jesus, or just say you are a universalist.
John 3:18
Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God.
Mark 16:16
Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned.
and so on. you know the passages.
Why should I believe what you think a book says? Lol I am being patient, did I come across as angry?
This might be where my discussions with Christians become tainted toward personal invalidation and misdirection. I gave a statement of my thoughts. Genuine questions. So why do I now get the feeling that I am being mocked and laughed at by you?
Do you believe that preaching to me with the undertone 'your mind is wrong' is going to bring me into your circle or is it more as I suspect, that you decided before my post was written to proceed to tell me what your God wants and how I should conform? Lol
In either case it's a terrible tactic. Sorry, no dice.
I respect your beliefs but please dont try to tell me that they are what I need.
This might be where my discussions with Christians become tainted toward personal invalidation and misdirection. I gave a statement of my thoughts. Genuine questions. So why do I now get the feeling that I am being mocked and laughed at by you?
Do you believe that preaching to me with the undertone 'your mind is wrong' is going to bring me into your circle or is it more as I suspect, that you decided before my post was written to proceed to tell me what your God wants and how I should conform? Lol
In either case it's a terrible tactic. Sorry, no dice.
I respect your beliefs but please dont try to tell me that they are what I need.
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Funny, cuz the world wants us to conform to it actually, and anything against God conforms to it, like a slave bonded to a executioner. In actuality the world is what contaminates your heart and mind, the word of God is what cleans it. You should know this since you believe in Buddha right? That is pretty much what he taught.
T
One really needs to take a step back to examine everything.
You say that either the Creator predestines most of humanity for hell, or that many religious folk have the wrong image of the Creator.
It's not exactly an Either Or situation here.
Without a right choice, there is no WRONG choice. Without a morally upright God, there would be NO morally imperfect person. The fact is, according to scriptures, God created man as a perfect being, created after HIS own image. God is omnipotent. The facts remain--he created us with the freedom of choice--because he LOVED us.
Now, let me go back--if there was NO right choice, there would be NO wrong choice...and if there was NO right or wrong choice, there would be NO CHOICE at all! This is all a matter of simple logic here, so i hope i haven't confused you.
So, God gave us a choice in the garden, and Adam and Eve, wanting to become as great as God, chose to do wrong. And because of that choice, sin entered the world. Now, you haven't considered all possibilities when you stated "Either the creator is a sadist (doubtful), or we are as we are meant to be." This is a statement that leaves NO room for other options.
I know we often say that God can do EVERYTHING, but that is actually NOT TRUE.
God cannot sin. God cannot Lie. God cannot Be NON-EXISTENT. He exists, and that is fact, regardless of YOUR belief, regardless of MY belief. God WILL NOT force us to do His will.
God LOVES us, so he gave us the freedom of choice. WE chose to turn to evil and become wholly corrupted by SIN. SIN was never part of God's perfect plan for us. NO matter what it looks like, GOD left the decision up to US.
According to the Bible, God, who cannot lie, says this, "The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance." II Peter 3:9
God is NOT a sadistic God. Neither were we CREATED to be sinners.
We were CREATED in his PERFECT image, but WE, the PEOPLE, corrupted that perfect image out of our own free will.
So, the first one, "The creator predestines most of humanity for hell" is false. The Creator is NOT willing that any should perish, but when one willfully pushes God away, insisting on their own goodness, He will not force us--otherwise, it wouldn't be call "choice" and it wouldn't be called LOVE.
the second "Many religious folk have the wrong image of the creator."
THIS IS TRUE. MANY religions out there have the WRONG idea of who God is.
What is your own personal beliefs, if i may ask? XD
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You say that either the Creator predestines most of humanity for hell, or that many religious folk have the wrong image of the Creator.
It's not exactly an Either Or situation here.
Without a right choice, there is no WRONG choice. Without a morally upright God, there would be NO morally imperfect person. The fact is, according to scriptures, God created man as a perfect being, created after HIS own image. God is omnipotent. The facts remain--he created us with the freedom of choice--because he LOVED us.
Now, let me go back--if there was NO right choice, there would be NO wrong choice...and if there was NO right or wrong choice, there would be NO CHOICE at all! This is all a matter of simple logic here, so i hope i haven't confused you.
So, God gave us a choice in the garden, and Adam and Eve, wanting to become as great as God, chose to do wrong. And because of that choice, sin entered the world. Now, you haven't considered all possibilities when you stated "Either the creator is a sadist (doubtful), or we are as we are meant to be." This is a statement that leaves NO room for other options.
I know we often say that God can do EVERYTHING, but that is actually NOT TRUE.
God cannot sin. God cannot Lie. God cannot Be NON-EXISTENT. He exists, and that is fact, regardless of YOUR belief, regardless of MY belief. God WILL NOT force us to do His will.
God LOVES us, so he gave us the freedom of choice. WE chose to turn to evil and become wholly corrupted by SIN. SIN was never part of God's perfect plan for us. NO matter what it looks like, GOD left the decision up to US.
According to the Bible, God, who cannot lie, says this, "The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance." II Peter 3:9
God is NOT a sadistic God. Neither were we CREATED to be sinners.
We were CREATED in his PERFECT image, but WE, the PEOPLE, corrupted that perfect image out of our own free will.
So, the first one, "The creator predestines most of humanity for hell" is false. The Creator is NOT willing that any should perish, but when one willfully pushes God away, insisting on their own goodness, He will not force us--otherwise, it wouldn't be call "choice" and it wouldn't be called LOVE.
the second "Many religious folk have the wrong image of the creator."
THIS IS TRUE. MANY religions out there have the WRONG idea of who God is.
What is your own personal beliefs, if i may ask? XD
:3
Appreciated, but my empathy comment may need repeating. Scripture isn't more useful than assertions to people who don't believe the bible is true. If someone quoted the Qur'an to you in order to back up their "factual claims", it wouldn't persuade you... and so you ought to understand why this isn't persuasive to those of us who don't believe the bible.
Making two factual claims -- "Hitler was a Catholic" and "Hitler killed millions" -- is not a "hate-filled, childish argument", but rather a logically fallacious one (correlation doesn't prove causation). And you proved this by making an analogous argument about Stalin that I'm certain you don't find "hate-filled" or "childish" but you would agree is merely fallacious.
However, the same argument could be made in a slightly different way without logical fallacies. One could argue that "Hitler was a Catholic" and "Hitler killed millions" proves that Christianity does not prevent one from mass murder; correlation does disprove causation if the cause doesn't correlate with the alleged effect. Atheists aren't making an argument that some atheist entity "lives in one's heart", and we're quite willing to accept that atheists can kill as many or more as a theist can.
However, the same argument could be made in a slightly different way without logical fallacies. One could argue that "Hitler was a Catholic" and "Hitler killed millions" proves that Christianity does not prevent one from mass murder; correlation does disprove causation if the cause doesn't correlate with the alleged effect. Atheists aren't making an argument that some atheist entity "lives in one's heart", and we're quite willing to accept that atheists can kill as many or more as a theist can.
Well that's nice, but my comment had nothing to do with questions being asked by her but her vulgarity that was removed from the thread.
Nonbelievers visit this site often. Many of them are mature and respectful despite their views on God so there is absolutely no excuse for some of the things she said.
Nonbelievers visit this site often. Many of them are mature and respectful despite their views on God so there is absolutely no excuse for some of the things she said.
It's true that morals are subjective, but the subject doesn't have to be God. Many atheists believe in humanism, which is primarily based on the "harm principal": an act that causes harm to another person is wrong. This leads us to different "right choices" and "wrong choices" than a morality based on God's nature, but it doesn't leave us without them. For instance, we don't think "lusting after a woman in your heart" is evil because private thoughts and feelings don't harm others. We don't see gay sex as evil because no one is getting harmed by it. However, we think that driving in the wrong lane is evil because it endangers other drivers, even though the bible has nothing to say on the topic. We think that name-calling is evil because the main purpose is to hurt feelings, even if you really believe that your targets deserve to be called a "brood of vipers". Our morals are different than yours, but not non-existent.
Hello Cordiolus, I hope you are reading this.
In a human sense, I'd enjoy thinking about these questions and discussing them with you. I have spent many hundreds, perhaps thousands of hours, debating with people online. I have had similar questions. Have you ever experienced the feeling of knowing something is true but not knowing how you know it? If not, would you like to?
If you had spent your life trying to contact somebody, and I came along and told you I had His phone number, and He would answer if you dialed it, would you ask me how phones work, or how I know it is the correct number? Or would you merely dial the number to see if I was lying or not?
I hope you find the truth you seek. It does not come from men.