baptism problem

tribesman · Aug 2, 2012

xino said:

Nonsense.

If you cannot mirror yourself in these words, which you should do, then it is meaningless to discuss.

All you do currently is setting word against word. However, it is not with me you disagree primarily, but with the word of God (which you twist, at least in this issue, after your own liking).

JaumeJ · Aug 2, 2012

Without going off on a tangent, baptism is encouraged to be performed in obedience and respect of God, as Yeshua was baptized to fulfill all righteousness. If believing parents baptize their children at any age and any of the children go away from the way, the baptism is of no avail, however it is to the believing children. I am not in a position to deny anyone's baptism when that person believes himself baptized, nor would I ever wish to deny the deed having been accomplished in all righteousness. Perhaps there are those who can, but I would not be counted among them I believe this because Yahweh is good all of the time. Blessed be our family in Yeshua, amen. (If there is a right or wrong here, I certainly allow that I may be wrong, but I know Yahweh loves me regardless.)

tribesman · Aug 2, 2012

JaumeJ said:

Without going off on a tangent, baptism is encouraged to be performed in obedience and respect of God, as Yeshua was baptized to fulfill all righteousness. If believing parents baptize their children at any age and any of the children go away from the way, the baptism is of no avail, however it is to the believing children. I am not in a position to deny anyone's baptism when that person believes himself baptized, nor would I ever wish to deny the deed having been accomplished in all righteousness. Perhaps there are those who can, but I would not be counted among them I believe this because Yahweh is good all of the time. Blessed be our family in Yeshua, amen. (If there is a right or wrong here, I certainly allow that I may be wrong, but I know Yahweh loves me regardless.)

What would you say to those who claim that we need no water baptism at all in the new covenant?

JaumeJ · Aug 2, 2012

tribesman said:

It is not for me to say either way, however from what I have learned from the Word, if a person loves Yeshua and has received the Holy Spirit, whether the water baptism has occurred or not, that person is part of the Body of Christ. If the person knowingly and willfully is not baptized in water, I would think that would fall under the warning of teaching against the least of any of the commandments and that individual would be the least in heaven. This in mind, if the person has not been baptized due to ignorance of whether it should have been done or not, or simply does not know about water baptism, albeit unlikely, there is an excuse for not having been baptized in ignorance of its requirement. It seems Yahweh is much more flexible than we. His ways are truly not our ways, so I cannot say I know, but I do believe what I have posted on the subject, although I did waffle there for a moment....please forgive that!

tribesman · Aug 2, 2012

JaumeJ said:

Yes, there can be various reasons for why a believing person has not yet been baptized. That is not the question here, really. The question is about this false teaching that is gaining popularity in our day, the teaching that says that water baptism is not needed AT ALL anymore. This, I mean, is clearly against both the clear testimony of scripture and the many historical records that give clear evidence for the practice in question. Regardless if that heresy cames from some so called "spirit" revelation or from some presumptous "interpretation" or just from pure ignorance it is false and dangerous and must be warned against. As said earlier, I see such views much as the result of the popular teachings that are around that downplays the significance of water baptism to the level of making it a mere optional to eventually despising it and rejecting it altogether. To be warned against!

JaumeJ · Aug 2, 2012

tribesman said:

Rereading my post, I think I included how I believe about that, but I will make a declaration more certain now. It is against the Word to teach against water baptism. Why in the world of faith in Yeshua would anyone pretend to believe this could be taught is well beyond my grasp. Thank you T-man for specifying. God bless you and keep you always, amen. I may add, to teach against it knowing the Word is disrespectful to the knowledge of the Savior and demonstrates a lack of familiarity with Him.

edward99 · Aug 2, 2012

xino said:

Like I said: DON'T GET BAPTIZED!

REFUSE IT.

despise it. teach against it.

Meanwhile, enjoy your liver shivers; burning bosom and subjective experiences

"Please tell me..ALL of you who were baptised in water, when you came out. Did you feel any difference? or felt anything in your body?
because when I repented to Jesus Christ, I felt a warmth in my body, like a chill in my spine but it was warm."

I wonder if you'll get a chance to even try to explain why you didn't even make it through the FIRST COMMAND of the New Covenant which was preached to you by someone obeying the Great Commission:

Matthew 28:19
"Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit....

yea...good luck with that.

xino · Aug 2, 2012

lol...funny how I dissected your comments and you all reply back with "ok..don't believe".
why?
because you can't accept the truth? you can't prove me wrong?
you can't accept the fact that if Baptism means immersion then Peter's words are SO contradictory tot he bible.
And the bible is God's word, they are absolute and not contradictory.
You are the one whom is contradicted.

I laid down my quotes and information, and no one can't even quote me back.
The reply I get is "yes..you don't believe in water".

@JaumeJ
funny how you gave me the 'Lydia of Thyatira reference.
I dissected that passage for you, and you just ignored it.
It just shows you don't even understand the concept of -baptisms- nor understanding the 'Lydia of Thyatira' passage.

you are all in fault.
Why follow what 'churches' perform?
churches are there to make their own rules and law.
do you even know that some churches are giving out certificate for being baptised?

exactly, so water baptism is the backwards way. We don't even baptise in the name of Father, Son and Holy SPirit.
We baptise in the name of Jesus Christ.

so many things church teach wrong.
Why follow what 99% of people do, when you don't even understand WHY they are doing it.

MaranathaSoonQuick · Aug 3, 2012

well dude, there are verses that explain about the problem you think of when you said we don't even baptize in the name of the father spirit son, we baptize in Jesus name, well here they are for you, and BOTH are correct:
Act 2:38 KJV Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins.
Matt. 28:19 , "Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit
and about immersion, (RachelBibleStudent showed me this point)
that Immersion is only un necessary when there is not enough water to do the immersion.
dissecting scriptures will show you that. providing the true discernment.
hey brother, I'd be afraid to not be baptized people act like it's a game, well it's not. and it's not a joke or something to be taken lightly when Jesus very own voice proclaimed baptism. eh i don't understand the problem here, the bible says it Jesus said it, we know it's true.

xino · Aug 3, 2012

MaranathaSoonQuick said:

Ok what is the name?
who is the father?
if you were baptised by some random dude on the street, saying "I baptise you in the name of Father, Son and Holy Spirit". Wouldn't you question him, what is the name of them?
The name is Jesus Christ.

Jesus said we should baptise IN THE NAME of Father, Son and Holy Spirit. What is the name? Jesus Christ.
It is OBVIOUSLY a simple test by Jesus.
Simon asked Jesus "Lord, show us the Father", Jesus replied "Simon haven't you known me all this time? how can you just ask Show us the father? If you know me you have seen the Father" (John 14)

In John, Jesus refer to God as Father when he speaks to his disciples or God. But when he speaks to people and Pharisees, he calls the Father, God. What is the name of Jesus Father? he is called Jesus Christ and it would be awkward if Jesus calls Father, "I thank you Jesus Christ (Father) for answering my prayer and glorifying my name".

John 1 talks about The Word...the name if Jesus Christ.
When you see a demon, what name do you call out to rebuke the demon?
As you can see...if anyone knows who Jesus Christ is, they know he is also the Father and his name is Jesus Christ.
Out of respect, we should also call our God Jesus Christ, Father just like Jesus does. Because we are his son.

Why would the disciples baptise in the name of Jesus Christ when Jesus said we should baptise in the name of Father, Son and Holy spirit? wouldn't that mean the disciples were disobedient?

The fact is...you don't understand what Baptism Jesus is talking about.
He is talking about when we repent and we pledge our life to him, THEN we will be baptised spiritually. It does not talk about water baptism. You just believe the baptism Jesus talks about is water, because you follow what 99% of people from church do.

Yes I was naive at first when Eternally-Greatfull told me this, because it's the first time I heard this and he was the ONLY person telling me Water baptism does not save you.
Then my sister and a friend told me the same thing. So I had to be humble and ask Eternally Greatful to explain further.
I did my research and found out the truth.

You can either choose to listen and be humble or just listen to your own view and doctrine you believe.
Because I can happily provide to you scriptures that Jesus meant we should baptise in his name.

Ciscokid · Aug 3, 2012

Bravo xino---No matter what any CHURCH says, scripturally baptism is for the remmision of sins--in Jesus name.What about Matt 28:19? There are no examples in the scripture where anyone was baptized according to Father Son and Holy Ghost. The Apostoles never baptized anyone in those titles.Someone mentioned that the Father wouldn't keep anyone out of heaven for not being baptized---UH --yes he would if it was a SCRIPTURAL commandment--God doesn't go back on his WRITTEN word nor his commandments. Lord Bless

edward99 · Aug 3, 2012

xino said:

Nah. I didn't refute you because you have to carry on in this delusion for a time.
You listened to someone who gave you false information about baptism, and have decided you have gnosis the church lacks.

Carry on, as you will.
Hopefully it won't take too long to see your arrogance, and the conviction won't hurt too much.

edward99 · Aug 3, 2012

xino said:

The fact is...you don't understand what Baptism Jesus is talking about.
He is talking about when we repent and we pledge our life to him, THEN we will be baptised spiritually. It does not talk about water baptism. You just believe the baptism Jesus talks about is water, because you follow what 99% of people from church do.

Yes I was naive at first when Eternally-Greatfull told me this, because it's the first time I heard this and he was the ONLY person telling me Water baptism does not save you.

Then my sister and a friend told me the same thing. So I had to be humble and ask Eternally Greatful to explain further.

I did my research and found out the truth.

You can either choose to listen and be humble or just listen to your own view and doctrine you believe.
Because I can happily provide to you scriptures that Jesus meant we should baptise in his name.

Water doesn't save you.

(Way to go Eternally-Grateful: a little leaven leavens the whole lump. Casting doubt and see what you've done! People DESPISING baptism!).

xino · Aug 3, 2012

Ciscokid said:

exactly.
people only listen to what others teach them in the bible or what others are doing.
I simply read the bible and understand as little or as much as it talks about.
I listen to others, how their views are different to mine, do my research if what they said is accurate or not.

People just don't want to listen.
Jesus said we should baptise in the name of the trinity, which the name is Jesus Christ.
the problem is that people don't even believe Jesus is the father and holy spirit in the first place and that's why they use the title.
If one can believe that Jesus is all 3 then baptising in his name makes perfect sense. The disciples never baptised in the title but in Jesus Christ.

If the church baptise in the title and disciples baptised in Jesus Christ...who is more disobedient?
People use excuse and say, "I am doing what Jesus commanded"...sure you are. So it would mean the disciples who are witnesses of Jesus and walked with him for years are the disobedient ones.
People are just either trying to contradict the bible with their actions or call the bible/disciples the liars based on their beliefs.

It is no different to water baptism. Jesus never said we should baptise in water.
People will use an excuse and say baptism in New Testament means water immersion/dunking.
So Peter who said in 1 Peter 3:20 that 8 people that survived the Noah's Ark were saved by water which is the symbol of baptism. Wouldn't that contradict the bible or Peter?
because if 8 people survived on water and it's a symbol, how can we be sure we are saved by being immersed/dunked inside water???
Shouldn't it mean we are above the water to be saved just like how 8 people survived.
Or did Noah built a Submarine? lolz!

now I want to find out why we even attend church on Sundays:/

oldhermit · Aug 3, 2012

Nautilus said:

Do not confuse ecclastical definitions of baptism with the definition of the word as it is given to us in the New Testament. These two definitions are sometime worlds apart. Remember, scripture, not the church is the authority in all spiritual matters.

Bea22 · Aug 3, 2012

Baptism is important because it signifies a death to your old nature, and a commitment to the Lord - taking on His name.
Baptism by sprinkling is not scriptural - it was brought in by the Catholic church.
Baptism by immersion is the correct way. (There is nowhere in the scriptures which says anyone got sprinkled or in any other form besides immersion).
Baptism in the name of the Father, Son and Holy Ghost .... where did anyone in the Bible get baptised in those titles?
Both Paul and Peter said to be rebaptised in the name of Jesus Christ to receive the Holy Spirit. The words that Jesus said do not contradict what both Paul and Peter said if you have the revelation of the Godhead.
Baptism in water is not going to make you a new creature, it doesn't save you and it doesn't give you a new heart. You can go down a dry sinner and come up a wet one. But it is an important act of commitment and key to following God, and in showing you are leaving your old life behind and starting out new for God. It is an act which signifies death - which all throughout the scriptures is taught as being crucial in the process of renewal.
And as for the churches and all their legal ways of looking at it, no wonder people are confused. If you cannot find a pastor, God can provide someone to do the baptismal service - like He did with Phillip. I believe as long as you follow the scriptures of the correct name to baptise in and the immersion, God will do the rest.

xino · Aug 4, 2012

Bea22 said:

Baptism is important because it signifies a death to your old nature, and a commitment to the Lord - taking on His name.
Baptism by sprinkling is not scriptural - it was brought in by the Catholic church.
Baptism by immersion is the correct way. (There is nowhere in the scriptures which says anyone got sprinkled or in any other form besides immersion).
Baptism in the name of the Father, Son and Holy Ghost .... where did anyone in the Bible get baptised in those titles?
Both Paul and Peter said to be rebaptised in the name of Jesus Christ to receive the Holy Spirit. The words that Jesus said do not contradict what both Paul and Peter said if you have the revelation of the Godhead.
Baptism in water is not going to make you a new creature, it doesn't save you and it doesn't give you a new heart. You can go down a dry sinner and come up a wet one. But it is an important act of commitment and key to following God, and in showing you are leaving your old life behind and starting out new for God. It is an act which signifies death - which all throughout the scriptures is taught as being crucial in the process of renewal.
And as for the churches and all their legal ways of looking at it, no wonder people are confused. If you cannot find a pastor, God can provide someone to do the baptismal service - like He did with Phillip. I believe as long as you follow the scriptures of the correct name to baptise in and the immersion, God will do the rest.

i like that comment, makes perfect sense. All the things you said are all true.

i like the part I bolded.
It's kinda like being born again.
When we are first born, we break through the mother's womb in water.
Now being water baptised is going in the water and coming out with a new life.

MaranathaSoonQuick · Aug 7, 2012

lol, i read your reply to me, Jesus was saying he who hath seen me hath seen the father meaning he is one and equal remember yah-weh are 3 in one.
and begging the reading of your post you said what's his name,.. this verse popped into mind
Blue Letter Bible
Pro 30:4
Who hath ascended up into heaven, or descended? who hath gathered the wind in his fists? who hath bound the waters in a garment? who hath established all the ends of the earth? what [is] his name, and what [is] his son's name, if thou canst tell?
and also
Joh 1:18
King James Bible (Cambridge Ed.)
No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him

and also while reading your post i couldn't understand what you were talking about you said we aren't to be baptized by water, i didn't know what was true, and that we should be baptized in the name of the father the son and the holy ghost, but you were also talking about Jesus is the father to us, and if God is one being baptized in water like stated and performed by John the Baptist than In Jesus name or the name of the Father Son & Spirit should be alike.
What i believe was written in the Holy Bible. i provided you with verses as well, maybe you should go look them over...

eternally-gratefull · Aug 7, 2012

xino said:

If this is symbolic in nature, I agree.

But if we are talking about being born again, and given new life in Christ, I must strongly disagree, because it is not through physical water by the hands of men we are washed and made clean, it is by spiritual water by the hands of God we are washed and made clean. The physical represents what in reality happened in the spiritual.

xino · Aug 7, 2012

@eternally-grateful
yes I know....in fact water baptism is basically 'church tradition'

here are a few things I read in the bible to counter everyone's quote

Acts 3:19
Now repent of your sins and turn to God, so that your sins may be wiped away.
Repent by prayer (Romans 9:10), Jesus whom is the lamp of God, his blood will wipe away your sins....NOT WATER!

Acts 1:15
During this time, when about 120 believers were together in one place, Peter stood up and addressed them.
After Jesus ascended to Heaven, days later 11 disciples wanted to find one to replace Judas.
At this time...the believers who were baptised in Jesus Christ and also Christians were numbered to 120
*GET THIS*
Acts 2:41
Those who believed what Peter said were baptized and added to the church that day--about 3,000 in all.
From 120 grew UP to 3k!!! Now this is the quote people usually use Acts 2:38
*NOW THE STRIKE*
Acts 4:4
But many of the people who heard their message believed it, so the number of believers now totaled about 5,000 men, not counting women and children.
NOW the number grew from 3k to 5k!!! and this happened when Peter and John were in jail! So WHO could baptise them?

As you can see...when the bible talks about someone 'believing', it basically means they repented and turned their life to God. That is how Jesus spiritually baptise them.
You will use and argument and say "Matthew 28:19 Jesus said make disciples of all nation therefore it becomes a cycle". But in book of Acts, only the disciples were the ONES baptising...not one who was baptised by disciple and that person baptise another.

If you read it said Peter and John were in Jail, this made people believe in their Good News and increasing the number from 3k to 5k. If you read Chapter 2 you will find it said, people who believed and were baptised made the number from 150 increase to 3k. Now people who believe while Peter and John were in jail increase in number from 3k to 5k. So it would mean the extra 2k were baptised too!

Ok more information to show that Believe word means Baptised
Acts 8:12-19
But when they believed Philip as he preached the good news of the kingdom of God and the name of Jesus Christ, they were baptized, both men and women. 13 Simon himself believed and was baptized. And he followed Philip everywhere, astonished by the great signs and miracles he saw. 14 When the apostles in Jerusalem heard that Samaria had accepted the word of God, they sent Peter and John to them. 15 When they arrived, they prayed for them that they might receive the Holy Spirit, 16 because the Holy Spirit had not yet come upon any of them; they had simply been baptized into the name of the Lord Jesus. 17 Then Peter and John placed their hands on them, and they received the Holy Spirit. 18 When Simon saw that the Spirit was given at the laying on of the apostles' hands, he offered them money 19 and said, "Give me also this ability so that everyone on whom I lay my hands may receive the Holy Spirit."

And
Acts 8:36
36 As they traveled along the road, they came to some water and the eunuch said, “Look, here is water. What can stand in the way of my being baptized?”

Acts 10:47
47 “Surely no one can stand in the way of their being baptized with water. They have received the Holy Spirit just as we have.” 48 So he ordered that they be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ. Then they asked Peter to stay with them for a few days.

*NOW READ THIS*
Acts 11:15-17
5 “As I began to speak, the Holy Spirit came on them as he had come on us at the beginning. 16 Then I remembered what the Lord had said: ‘John baptized with[a] water, but you will be baptized with the Holy Spirit.’ 17 So if God gave them the same gift he gave us who believed in the Lord Jesus Christ, who was I to think that I could stand in God’s way?”

Now do you see what this is talking about?
from my point of view even though I don't full understand what they meant by someone standing in the way. Peter was saying no one can stand in someone's way of being baptised with water, or who can stand in the way?
So when Peter remember what Jesus said, he then acknowledges that if no one can stand in someone being baptised in water, therefore NO ONE can stand in someone's way of being baptised with Holy Spirit by Jesus.

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