Baptism symbol only ?

[Jason0047]

Paul was baptized by Ananias (Acts 9:17, 18), yet he makes it clear that he did not receive gospel from man. In Gal 1:11-12: “that the gospel which was preached of me is not after man. If Paul received the gospel from Christ and not from man then baptism is not part of the gospel nor part of his salvation. Acts 9:17: “Then Ananias went to the house and entered it. Placing his hands on Saul, he said, 'Brother Saul, the Lord -- Jesus, who appeared to you on the road as you were coming here -- has sent me so that you may see again and be filled with the Holy Spirit.”’ Ananias was sent to Saul for two reasons: So that Saul would be able to see again, and so he would be filled with the Holy Spirit. Ananias told Paul he will receive his sight and immediately be filled with the Holy Spirit (prior to his baptism v.18). Some argue that Saul remain a sinner, unsaved until he was baptized? If Saul needed to be baptized in order to be saved, then he was not yet “Brother Saul.”

Source:
When was Saul actually saved - When he was baptized or when he encountered the Lord?
(Note: I do not agree with the author's belief on OSAS; But they do make a great point with Paul, though).

 

[newbirth]

Paul was baptized by Ananias (Acts 9:17, 18), yet he makes it clear that he did not receive gospel from man. In Gal 1:11-12: “that the gospel which was preached of me is not after man. If Paul received the gospel from Christ and not from man then baptism is not part of the gospel nor part of his salvation. Acts 9:17: “Then Ananias went to the house and entered it. Placing his hands on Saul, he said, 'Brother Saul, the Lord -- Jesus, who appeared to you on the road as you were coming here -- has sent me so that you may see again and be filled with the Holy Spirit.”’ Ananias was sent to Saul for two reasons: So that Saul would be able to see again, and so he would be filled with the Holy Spirit. Ananias told Paul he will receive his sight and immediately be filled with the Holy Spirit (prior to his baptism v.18). Some argue that Saul remain a sinner, unsaved until he was baptized? If Saul needed to be baptized in order to be saved, then he was not yet “Brother Saul.”

Source:
When was Saul actually saved - When he was baptized or when he encountered the Lord?
(Note: I do not agree with the author's belief on OSAS; But they do make a great point with Paul, though).

you make assumptions my friend read Acts 22......Paul's version...
[SUP]12 [/SUP]And one Ananias, a devout man according to the law, having a good report of all the Jews which dwelt there,
[SUP]13 [/SUP]Came unto me, and stood, and said unto me, Brother Saul, receive thy sight. And the same hour I looked up upon him.
[SUP]14 [/SUP]And he said, The God of our fathers hath chosen thee, that thou shouldest know his will, and see that Just One, and shouldest hear the voice of his mouth.
[SUP]15 [/SUP]For thou shalt be his witness unto all men of what thou hast seen and heard.
[SUP]16 [/SUP]And now why tarriest thou? arise, and be baptized, and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord.

 

[Nick01]

you make assumptions my friend read Acts 22......Paul's version...
[SUP]12 [/SUP]And one Ananias, a devout man according to the law, having a good report of all the Jews which dwelt there,
[SUP]13 [/SUP]Came unto me, and stood, and said unto me, Brother Saul, receive thy sight. And the same hour I looked up upon him.
[SUP]14 [/SUP]And he said, The God of our fathers hath chosen thee, that thou shouldest know his will, and see that Just One, and shouldest hear the voice of his mouth.
[SUP]15 [/SUP]For thou shalt be his witness unto all men of what thou hast seen and heard.
[SUP]16 [/SUP]And now why tarriest thou? arise, and be baptized, and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord.

Unfortunately, this is a misreading of the KJV text (which is perhaps slightly vaguer than it has to be at this point of the translation). The implication is not that baptism is the means of washing away of sins - rather, the greek term in regards to 'calling' (ἐπικαλεσάμενος), an aorist construction that here is grammatically linked to the washing away of sins. The baptising itself seems to be a concurrent, though not causative, action.

So the rendering would be something like "Arise and be baptised, and wash away thy sins through having called on the name of the Lord." or perhaps "wash away sins by calling on the name of the Lord." This is how virtually every other English translation renders the verse, if it does not follow the KJV (as I believe the ESV does at this point)

I want to reiterate, though, even the KJV reading you quote does not necessitate the conclusion that baptism itself is the cause of washing away of sins - they can as easily be read as three separate and unrelated actions. The KJV rendering is vague, rather than actually reaching a different conclusion (i.e. your conclusion) compared to the other translations.

 

[newbirth]

Unfortunately, this is a misreading of the KJV text (which is perhaps slightly vaguer than it has to be at this point of the translation). The implication is not that baptism is the means of washing away of sins - rather, the greek term in regards to 'calling' (ἐπικαλεσάμενος), an aorist construction that here is grammatically linked to the washing away of sins. The baptising itself seems to be a concurrent, though not causative, action.

So the rendering would be something like "Arise and be baptised, and wash away thy sins through having called on the name of the Lord." or perhaps "wash away sins by calling on the name of the Lord." This is how virtually every other English translation renders the verse, if it does not follow the KJV (as I believe the ESV does at this point)

I want to reiterate, though, even the KJV reading you quote does not necessitate the conclusion that baptism itself is the cause of washing away of sins - they can as easily be read as three separate and unrelated actions. The KJV rendering is vague, rather than actually reaching a different conclusion (i.e. your conclusion) compared to the other translations.

It is Christ who forgives .....It is Christ who said to be baptised....How many Naamans are there??????? Salvation is in Christ...He says to do it you do it and live....If you don't do it you die....disobedience brings death(separation) ask Adam....God is a God of order and in the grand scheme of things the first order of business to those who believe is...repent and be baptised....that is why those who received the HS before baptism were commanded to be baptised.....it is not so much what it does but more what He says.....even if the act itself does not save you....the direct violation of the command is enough to hinder you from being saved....

 

[Nick01]

It is Christ who forgives .....It is Christ who said to be baptised....How many Naamans are there??????? Salvation is in Christ...He says to do it you do it and live....If you don't do it you die....disobedience brings death(separation) ask Adam....God is a God of order and in the grand scheme of things the first order of business to those who believe is...repent and be baptised....that is why those who received the HS before baptism were commanded to be baptised.....it is not so much what it does but more what He says.....even if the act itself does not save you....the direct violation of the command is enough to hinder you from being saved....

So... what do you think of Acts 22:16, seeing as that is what I posted in reply to?

 

[PACEMAKER]

I understand the point you are getting at... that somehow baptism for salvation would be working for salvation, when salvation comes by "faith alone" right ?
Well, our faith is completed by our works, and completely dead without them. ( James 2 ) Baptism is not any more of a work than repentance, or praying to "receive Christ into your heart"or whatever you DO to respond to grace.

As for your other questions, I know Paul's sins were not washed away until he was baptized. Im not limiting the grace of God, but we need to be obedient to what we see in scripture.

Iam3rd So, I am to assume that since you did Not answer my previous questions;
that you are not sure about what you believe.??



If what you believed about something were Not True ;
would you want to know the Truth??


As for this comment “I understand the point you are getting at... that somehow baptism for salvation would be working for salvation, when salvation comes by "faith alone" right ?
My answer is: Wrong


You said; “Well, our faith is completed by our works, and completely dead without them. ( James 2 ) Baptism is not any more of a work than repentance, or praying to "receive Christ into your heart"or whatever you DO to respond to grace. “


It Is Important to Not take things out of CONTEXT.. The book of James is about people that are ALREADY Christians.. Right?? And of coarse faith without works is dead; If you are a Believer Right??


Apparently you think that “water baptism” Is a Work??


Can you have Faith; without having someone else involved with your Personal Relationship with God?


Can you Repent to God ; without have another person involved ??


Can you Trust in Jesus; without having another person getting involved ??


And as for Prayers; Does God here any of your Prayers; Before you are “water baptized'??


“water baptism” takes TWO people to accomplish this ritual;
You would Not think that God would Require that another Person;
other than Jesus Christ be involved in our Salvation.



What All is involved in Preaching the “Gospel” ??



And as for this comment “
As for your other questions, I know Paul's sins were not washed away until he was baptized. Im not limiting the grace of God, but we need to be obedient to what we see in scripture.


I am going to Disagree with you.. here is why

1. Paul tells that he did not receive or hear the Gospel from Ananias, but rather he heard it directly from Christ. Galatians 1:11-12 says, "For I would have you know, brethren, that the gospel which was preached by me is not according to man. For I neither received it from man, nor was I taught it, but I received it through a revelation of Jesus Christ." So, Paul heard and believed in Christ on the road to Damascus. Paul had already believed in Christ when Ananias came to pray for him to receive his sight
   
2. (Acts 9:17). 17 So Ananias departed and entered the house. And laying his hands on him he said, “Brother Saul, the Lord Jesus who appeared to you on the road by which you came has sent me so that you may regain your sight and be filled with the Holy Spirit.”
   
   
3. this was before he was baptized (Acts 9:18) 18 And immediately something like scales fell from his eyes, and he regained his sight. Then he rose and was baptized;
   

4. Paul Tells of His Conversion Acts 26:12-18
12 “In this connection I journeyed to Damascus with the authority and commission of the chief priests. 13 At midday, O king, I saw on the way a light from heaven, brighter than the sun, that shone around me and those who journeyed with me. 14 And when we had all fallen to the ground, I heard a voice saying to me in the Hebrew language,1 ‘Saul, Saul, why are you persecuting me? It is hard for you to kick against the goads.’ 15 And I said, ‘Who are you, Lord?’ And the Lord said, ‘I am Jesus whom you are persecuting. 16 But rise and stand upon your feet, for I have appeared to you for this purpose, to appoint you as a servant and witness to the things in which you have seen me and to those in which I will appear to you, 17delivering you from your people and from the Gentiles—to whom I am sending you 18to open their eyes, so that they may turn from darkness to light and from the power of Satan to God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins anda place among those who are sanctified by FAITH in me.’


If “water baptism” is required; Why is it Not mentioned here??

But it Does say; that they may receive forgiveness of sins
anda place among those who are sanctified by FAITH in me.’



Does God Know your “Heart” ??

 

[newbirth]

So... what do you think of Acts 22:16, seeing as that is what I posted in reply to?

the scripture says we are baptised into Christ.....one cannot get into Christ with sin....Clearly Paul's sins were not yet forgiven....at what point do you think they were forgiven??? It is Christ doing the work and if he says repent and be baptised for the remission of sins...then it is at that point he does the remitting

 

[PACEMAKER]

who gave you authority to change the word?....what did Peter say? ...Is he lying? did he say be baptised in the name of John?
[SUP]38 [/SUP]Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
[SUP]39 [/SUP]For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call.

newbirth, Got some questions for you


Acts 2:21 And everyone who calls
on the name of the Lord will be saved.’
Acts 2:47 praising God and enjoying the favor of all the people. And the Lord added to their number daily those who were being saved.
Says SAVED Not “water baptized”
Acts 3:19 Repent, then, and turn to God, so that your sins may be wiped out, that times of refreshing may come from the Lord,
Can you explain that in Peters 2[SUP]nd[/SUP] message
Why he left out to be “water baptized” ???



Repentance and our Lord are the Key Words for our Salvation



What did Peter say???
Don't change the "Word"
and ADD

'water baptism” to Acts 3:19..

 

[newbirth]

newbirth, Got some questions for you


Acts 2:21 And everyone who calls
on the name of the Lord will be saved.’
Acts 2:47 praising God and enjoying the favor of all the people. And the Lord added to their number daily those who were being saved.
Says SAVED Not “water baptized”
Acts 3:19 Repent, then, and turn to God, so that your sins may be wiped out, that times of refreshing may come from the Lord,
Can you explain that in Peters 2[SUP]nd[/SUP] message
Why he left out to be “water baptized” ???



Repentance and our Lord are the Key Words for our Salvation



What did Peter say???
Don't change the "Word"
and ADD

'water baptism” to Acts 3:19..

I imagine you are a person who must have the same instructions repeated to you continually to complete the simplest of chores.....I do not understand what you mean when you say saved and not water baptised Acts 2...did the scripture say they were not baptised? probably you did not read the whole chapter....
[SUP]37 [/SUP]Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do?
[SUP]38 [/SUP]Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

[SUP]39 [/SUP]For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call.

Do you wish to continually teach disobedience concerning the word of God?

 

[Nick01]

the scripture says we are baptised into Christ.....one cannot get into Christ with sin....Clearly Paul's sins were not yet forgiven....at what point do you think they were forgiven??? It is Christ doing the work and if he says repent and be baptised for the remission of sins...then it is at that point he does the remitting

You're still not really discussing Acts 22 - the point is not so much when Paul's sins were remitted, but whether baptism (that is, water baptism) was the operative agent of that remission. I could just as easily argue that his sins were remitted when and because he 'called upon the name of the Lord'. Given you made such a point of this passage, it's only fair you actually address responses directed to it.

In reference to the other parts of your post, Christ does not say repent and be baptised for the remission of sins - that's Peter in Acts 2. Worth pointing out that Peter says this in the context of receiving the HS (Repent+baptised in the name of Jesus and you will receive the Holy Spirit). However, we also read in Acts 10 that people received the Holy Spirit after believing but before baptism. Indeed, the whole tenor of Peter's response to this in Acts 10 is essentially "How can we possibly refuse baptism to these people who have already received the HS that we also have?" The common denominator is belief, not baptism, although both are baptised - in one, baptism precedes the indwelling of the Holy Spirit, in the other, it follows it.

Do you believe the indwelling of the Holy Spirit (characterised in Acts 20 by tongues and glorifying God) precedes forgiveness of sins?

 

[IAm3rd]

If “water baptism” is required; Why is it Not mentioned here??

But it Does say; that they may receive forgiveness of sins
anda place among those who are sanctified by FAITH in me.’

Does God Know your “Heart” ??

Brother, there are a great many verses of scripture that mention how we enter into eternal life that give no mention of faith... so it works both ways. We need to take scripture as a whole.

 

[Jason0047]

you make assumptions my friend read Acts 22......Paul's version...
[SUP]12 [/SUP]And one Ananias, a devout man according to the law, having a good report of all the Jews which dwelt there,
[SUP]13 [/SUP]Came unto me, and stood, and said unto me, Brother Saul, receive thy sight. And the same hour I looked up upon him.
[SUP]14 [/SUP]And he said, The God of our fathers hath chosen thee, that thou shouldest know his will, and see that Just One, and shouldest hear the voice of his mouth.
[SUP]15 [/SUP]For thou shalt be his witness unto all men of what thou hast seen and heard.
[SUP]16 [/SUP]And now why tarriest thou? arise, and be baptized, and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord.

Baptism washes away our sins FIGURATIVELY. Peter already explains this in 1 Peter 3:20-21; He says the eight souls that were saved by water (during the global flood) is a LIKE FIGURE (i.e. symbol) of Baptism and how it saves us (NOT for the putting away the filth of the flesh), but as an answer to a good conscience towards God (1 Peter 3:21). Filth of the flesh is in reference to sin. In 2 Corinthians 7:1, Paul says let us cleanse ourselves of all filthiness of the flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God. This is obviously in reference to sin. How so? 2 Corinthians 7:10 talks about two different types of sorrow. A worldly sorrow and a Godly sorrow that leads unto repentance.

What about the phrase, "calling on the name of the Lord." in Acts 22:16?

Well, believers call on the name of the Lord their entire walk. Sometimes they slip up on occasion and they need their advocate Jesus Christ, whereby they would confess their sins to Him and be cleansed of all unrighteousness (1 John 2:1) (1 John 1:9). Unrighteousness is sin (1 John 5:17).

 

[newbirth]

You're still not really discussing Acts 22 - the point is not so much when Paul's sins were remitted, but whether baptism (that is, water baptism) was the operative agent of that remission. I could just as easily argue that his sins were remitted when and because he 'called upon the name of the Lord'. Given you made such a point of this passage, it's only fair you actually address responses directed to it.

In reference to the other parts of your post, Christ does not say repent and be baptised for the remission of sins - that's Peter in Acts 2. Worth pointing out that Peter says this in the context of receiving the HS (Repent+baptised in the name of Jesus and you will receive the Holy Spirit). However, we also read in Acts 10 that people received the Holy Spirit after believing but before baptism. Indeed, the whole tenor of Peter's response to this in Acts 10 is essentially "How can we possibly refuse baptism to these people who have already received the HS that we also have?" The common denominator is belief, not baptism, although both are baptised - in one, baptism precedes the indwelling of the Holy Spirit, in the other, it follows it.

Do you believe the indwelling of the Holy Spirit (characterised in Acts 20 by tongues and glorifying God) precedes forgiveness of sins?

common denominator is belief...so the question is do you believe you will be saved if you disobey the command to be baptised? So it remains, are we saved by grace through faith(belief) in Christ and what he says to do? or are we saved by grace through faith in what we conclude is the best way we think it should be done? If you say Christ does not say repent and be baptised for the remission of sins...then you are saying Peter is a liar....and if Peter lies about this why should you believe anything else he says?....You believe certain things but not all ...things.....you do not believe God can make it happen that at the point of baptism you are baptised into Christ and your sins forgiven....is it to hard for him? It certainly is too hard for you to believe...

 

[Nick01]

common denominator is belief...so the question is do you believe you will be saved if you disobey the command to be baptised? So it remains, are we saved by grace through faith(belief) in Christ and what he says to do? or are we saved by grace through faith in what we conclude is the best way we think it should be done? If you say Christ does not say repent and be baptised for the remission of sins...then you are saying Peter is a liar....and if Peter lies about this why should you believe anything else he says?....You believe certain things but not all ...things.....you do not believe God can make it happen that at the point of baptism you are baptised into Christ and your sins forgiven....is it to hard for him? It certainly is too hard for you to believe...

I'm happy to address your other concerns, but let's deal with the topic at hand. I asked you a pretty clear question, so let's start with that.

Do you believe the indwelling of the Holy Spirit (characterised in Acts 20 by tongues and glorifying God) precedes forgiveness of sins?

 

[Jason0047]

Baptism washes away our sins FIGURATIVELY. Peter already explains this in 1 Peter 3:20-21; He says the eight souls that were saved by water (during the global flood) is a LIKE FIGURE (i.e. symbol) of Baptism and how it saves us (NOT for the putting away the filth of the flesh), but as an answer to a good conscience towards God (1 Peter 3:21). Filth of the flesh is in reference to sin. In 2 Corinthians 7:1, Paul says let us cleanse ourselves of all filthiness of the flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God. This is obviously in reference to sin. How so? 2 Corinthians 7:10 talks about two different types of sorrow. A worldly sorrow and a Godly sorrow that leads unto repentance.

What about the phrase, "calling on the name of the Lord." in Acts 22:16?

Well, believers call on the name of the Lord their entire walk. Sometimes they slip up on occasion and they need their advocate Jesus Christ, whereby they would confess their sins to Him and be cleansed of all unrighteousness (1 John 2:1) (1 John 1:9). Unrighteousness is sin (1 John 5:17).

Sins are washed away figuratively as an anwer to a good a conscience towards God and not for the putting away the filth of the flesh (i.e. sin) (1 Peter 3:20-21). The KJV is not in error. Here is a translation that helps to clarify what the KJV is saying.

Acts 22:16 (VOICE)

[SUP]16 [/SUP]So now, don’t delay. Get up, be ceremonially cleansed through baptism, and have your sins washed away, as you call on His name in prayer.”

For let it be stated absolutely that Jesus Christ washed away sins legally by Himself on the cross (Isaiah 53:5; II Cor 5:21; Heb 1:3; I Peter 2:24; Rev 1:5).

Let it further be stated absolutely that the Holy Spirit regenerates men by His sovereign will without human conditions or cooperation (John 1:13; 3:8: Eph 2:1; Titus 3:5).​

If you have been baptized by apostolic immersion in the name of Jesus Christ, then you have figuratively shown how your sins were washed away - by our Lord's burial and resurrection. You answered God with a conscience made good by the blood of Jesus Christ (Heb 9:14).

Source:
Acts 22:16
(Note: While I may agree with the author on this article; It doesn't mean I endorse or believe everything they write and believe.)​

 

[Timeline]

But I will run to John for my Baptism, but I'm not going to mess with that fire; but I can tell that you are not going to go through the fire for nobody either.

Hebrews 12:28-29
[SUP]28 [/SUP]Therefore, since we receive a kingdom which cannot be shaken, let us show gratitude, by which we may offer to God an acceptable service with reverence and awe; [SUP]29 [/SUP]for our God is a consuming fire.

 

[Jason0047]

I mean think about it. Baptism was a part of the ministry of Jesus Christ. Yet Jesus forgave men their sins on the spot without water baptism. Also, read Titus 3:5.

Side Note:

Oh and yes; I have been water baptized. But I did not do it in order to be saved. I was already saved long before that point. For who was more justified in the Parable of the Tax Collector and the Pharisee?

 

[newbirth]

Baptism washes away our sins FIGURATIVELY. Peter already explains this in 1 Peter 3:20-21; He says the eight souls that were saved by water (during the global flood) is a LIKE FIGURE (i.e. symbol) of Baptism and how it saves us (NOT for the putting away the filth of the flesh), but as an answer to a good conscience towards God (1 Peter 3:21). Filth of the flesh is in reference to sin. In 2 Corinthians 7:1, Paul says let us cleanse ourselves of all filthiness of the flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God. This is obviously in reference to sin. How so? 2 Corinthians 7:10 talks about two different types of sorrow. A worldly sorrow and a Godly sorrow that leads unto repentance.

What about the phrase, "calling on the name of the Lord." in Acts 22:16?

Well, believers call on the name of the Lord their entire walk. Sometimes they slip up on occasion and they need their advocate Jesus Christ, whereby they would confess their sins to Him and be cleansed of all unrighteousness (1 John 2:1) (1 John 1:9). Unrighteousness is sin (1 John 5:17).

Brother you are teaching contrary to God...the scripture says baptism saves you ....through the resurrection of Christ...go back and read 1 Peter 3...read the whole of vs 21
Colossians 2:6-12King James Version (KJV)
[SUP]6 [/SUP]As ye have therefore received Christ Jesus the Lord, so walk ye in him:
[SUP]7 [/SUP]Rooted and built up in him, and stablished in the faith, as ye have been taught, abounding therein with thanksgiving.
[SUP]8 [/SUP]Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.
[SUP]9 [/SUP]For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.
[SUP]10 [/SUP]And ye are complete in him, which is the head of all principality and power:
[SUP]11 [/SUP]In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ:
[SUP]12 [/SUP]Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.



Do you see the power of God in vs 12.....

 

[newbirth]

I mean think about it. Baptism was a part of the ministry of Jesus Christ. Yet Jesus forgave men their sins on the spot without water baptism. Also, read Titus 3:5.

Side Note:

Oh and yes; I have been water baptized. But I did not do it in order to be saved. I was already saved long before that point. For who was more justified in the Parable of the Tax Collector and the Pharisee?

were you buried with him in baptism and raised up in newness of life...

Colossians 2:12King James Version (KJV)
[SUP]12 [/SUP]Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.

 

[newbirth]

I'm happy to address your other concerns, but let's deal with the topic at hand. I asked you a pretty clear question, so let's start with that.

Do you believe the indwelling of the Holy Spirit (characterised in Acts 20 by tongues and glorifying God) precedes forgiveness of sins?

the topic at hand is
[h=2]Baptism symbol only ?[/h]this is no symbol and it is the topic.....what you or I believe cannot change the truth...can the clay talk back to the potter....All that question proves is that God is God and he can do anything....you cannot box God in a corner because he did something one way and choose to do the same thing another way...
Colossians 2:12King James Version (KJV)
[SUP]12 [/SUP]Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.


the scripture is clearly showing something happening at baptism...you can deny it but you cannot stop it.....