Baptism symbol only ?

Nick01 · Sep 11, 2014

I asked the question because of this statement you made: "you do not believe God can make it happen that at the point of baptism you are baptised into Christ and your sins forgiven"

So my question is very relevant to the topic - if the Holy Spirit does not indwell before forgiveness of sins, but only after forgiveness of sins, then it is obvious from Acts 20 that baptism with water is not required for that forgiveness. Whether or not it is commanded for other reasons is another matter - I'm specifically responding to you attaching baptism to forgiveness of sins.

I can only assume you are trying to avoid answering the question because you don't like the conclusion that it leads you to.

PACEMAKER · Sep 12, 2014

newbirth said:

newbirth, IF you Believe with All Your Heart that Jesus Christ died for All your Sins about 2000 years ago on the old rugged Cross
Just What Sins does does your “water baptism” wash away..
Be Specific..
Explain this verse..
I Corinthians 1:17 GOD'S WORD® Translation

Christ didn't send me to baptize. Instead, he sent me to spread the Good News. I didn't use intellectual arguments. That would have made the cross of Christ lose its meaning
You are making “The Cross” loose it's meaning by Adding “water Baptism” for washing away sins
You say “water baptism” is a Command.
That is called Religious Legalism
Just where does it rank in Commands to do??
Please Explain Acts 3:19..Acts 3:19 Repent, then, and turn to God, so that your sins may be wiped out, that times of refreshing may come from the Lord,
Please don't misunderstand me about “water baptism”
I believe that if you are a Believer in Jesus Christ
that He is Who He Said that He Was
and did what He said that He did
Then you should be “water baptized”
As an Outward Expression
( to make your decision Public that you are
a follower of Jesus Christ)

Because of your Inward Feelings
( a change in your Heart (Repentance)
and your willingness to Start a New life style)

Hope this helps from where I am coming from..

It is Not about what We can DO
Because We will Always fall short
Jesus Paid it ALL ALL to Him I owe
Gods Riches At Christ Expense
GRACE
Thought that you would be interested in this info
Max Lucado: The Biggest Mistake People Make About Grace - OutreachMagazine.com

PACEMAKER · Sep 12, 2014

IAm3rd said:

Iam3rd Brother, Why is it that when people like you that want to make their point with pick and choose verses of Scripture decide that that they have had enough and try to gracefully bow out
I have had discussion with family and friends
about this “water baptism” topic over the years.
They are like you; pick and choose verses
and don't answer my Questions.
All that I want is the Honest truth.
But the Questions I ask never get answered.
Go back and look at my post and you will see
that you did Not Answer my Questions
Are you afraid to answer my Question
because it could change your Beliefs??

Does God know your Heart??

Thought that you would be interested in this info
Max Lucado: The Biggest Mistake People Make About Grace - OutreachMagazine.com

newbirth · Sep 12, 2014

Nick01 said:

where did I make that statement ..there must have been a typo

your question is not relevant because God can do whatever he wants whenever he wants

You are the one saying baptism is a symbol....

newbirth · Sep 12, 2014

PACEMAKER said:

you take one line out of context to make a point...Paul did baptise ..Paul was baptised....Paul preached you must be baptised in the name of Jesus Christ....

Colossians 2:12King James Version (KJV)
[SUP]12 [/SUP]Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.

You quote from a bible you obviously do not believe...or you do not read...

Colossians 2:12GOD’S WORD Translation (GW)
[SUP]12 [/SUP]This happened when you were placed in the tomb with Christ through baptism. In baptism you were also brought back to life with Christ through faith in the power of God,[SUP][a][/SUP] who brought him back to life.

Jason0047 · Sep 12, 2014

newbirth said:

Do you see the power of God in verse 11?

It's the context of verse 12. It says,

Colossians 2:11
"In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ:"

Galatians 3:3-5
"Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh? Have ye suffered so many things in vain? if it be yet in vain. He therefore that ministereth to you the Spirit, and worketh miracles among you, doeth he it by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?"

Jason0047 · Sep 12, 2014

For if you believe baptism saves you, then you do not know what it means to be born again and how it is Christ who imputes His righteousness to you when you repent and accept Him.

http://christianchat.com/bible-discussion-forum/99195-born-again-righteousness-god.html

Jason0047 · Sep 12, 2014

John 1:12-13
"But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God."

This verse says, as many as received Him, to them gave He power to become the sons of God. This would EVEN include them that BELIEVE on HIS NAME. In other words, you are a son of God if you received Jesus Christ as your Savior. For we are not born of the WILL OF MAN (i.e. men performing certain ritutals to have you saved), but we are born again by God!

In other words, imagine you are trapped in a jungle far from civilization or on an island with no people on it. Now, what if you knew you were dying and you found a Bible. Would God really reject you if you called out to Him to save you and to forgive you of your sins as the Scriptures teach? Or are you condemned with no hope because you are not around a body of believers to baptize in a pool of water? Think about it. For baptismal salvation glorifies the will of man. That you can't be saved without another man. That's what you are saying. But the Scriptures say we are not born of the will of man, but of God. Do you believe Scripture?

Jason0047 · Sep 12, 2014

Would not God be a respector of persons if He saved the thief on the cross without water baptism and then later He requires us to be saved by water baptism?

newbirth · Sep 12, 2014

Jason0047 said:

John 1:12-13
"But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God."

This verse says, as many as received Him, to them gave He power to become the sons of God. This would EVEN include them that BELIEVE on HIS NAME. In other words, you are a son of God if you received Jesus Christ as your Savior. For we are not born of the WILL OF MAN (i.e. men performing certain ritutals to have you saved), but we are born again by God!

In other words, imagine you are trapped in a jungle far from civilization or on an island with no people on it. Now, what if you knew you were dying and you found a Bible. Would God really reject you if you called out to Him to save you and to forgive you of your sins as the Scriptures teach? Or are you condemned with no hope because you are not around a body of believers to baptize in a pool of water? Think about it. For baptismal salvation glorifies the will of man. That you can't be saved without another man. That's what you are saying. But the Scriptures say we are not born of the will of man, but of God. Do you believe Scripture?

Do you believe this....???? [SUP]12[/SUP]Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.

newbirth · Sep 12, 2014

Jason0047 said:

we are saved by grace through faith...water baptism is an act of faith....
Are you saying God is a respecter of persons because he did not give everyone the same gift????....
1 Corinthians 12:28
And God hath set some in the church, first apostles, secondarily prophets, thirdly teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, governments, diversities of tongues.

Jason0047 · Sep 12, 2014

newbirth said:

Yes, I am buried with him symbolically. I am not literally buried with him. Christ is risen. He is not buried still. Baptism is a metaphorical picture of what He did for us. Peter says baptism is a "Like Figure" of the global flood. It is not for the putting away of the flesh. Peter already made that point clear. Paul is saying we are buried with Christ in baptism symbolically. This is understood by properly understanding what is going on in verse 11. For are we risen with Christ right now? No. We are risen symbolically. For the Rapture has not happened yet. That can happen at any day or hour.

PACEMAKER · Sep 12, 2014

newbirth said:

newbirth, You forgot to Answer this Question
IF you Believe with All Your Heart that Jesus Christ died for All your Sins about 2000 years ago on the old rugged Cross
Just What Sins does does your “water baptism” wash away..
Be Specific..

Next Question
What is your Definition of a "Gift" ??

Jason0047 · Sep 12, 2014

newbirth said:

Salvation is not in Law keeping or anything that you do, but salvation is in Jesus Christ (1 John 5:12). Water baptism can be an act of faith (If one is already saved by repenting of their sins and accepting Jesus Christ as one's Savior). If one seeks baptism so as to be saved, they are basically saying they are saved by the will of man and not by the will of God. In your view: One is merely performing a religious ritual not taught in the Bible and is merely just getting wet (Having no true understanding on what salvation is really about). Biblical baptism is a symbolic act which is done out of having a good conscience towards God (And not for the putting away of the filth of the flesh (i.e. sin)).

Also, the gift of eternal life is not the same thing as spiritual gifts. The gift of eternal life is for all the people of God, and God is not going to make salvation easier or harder for different groups of people that are born in different points in time. God's plan of salvation has always been about a person being saved by God's grace by faith whereby they are regenerated spiritually (And whereby God then lives within them). Nothing has changed. The keeping of the OT Law was merely an outward reflection of the inner heart change they had with God when they repented of their sins. If they turned away from God, it was because they chose not to follow God anymore (And they resisted in being a new and changed person).

PACEMAKER · Sep 13, 2014

newbirth said:

newbirth, you said "I imagine you are a person who must have the same instructions repeated to you continually to complete the simplest of chores..."

I have been Self Employed since 1981; That is Over 30 years of Figuring things out in the Business and Home Repairs and Maintenance Services.
I have several customers that I still do work for; for over 25 years.
So, apparently "I Can figure Things Out"

You said; "I do not understand what you mean when you say saved and not water baptised Acts 2.."
Here is your answer;
And the Lord added to their number daily those who were being saved.

Acts 3:19 Repent, then, and turn to God, so that your sins may be wiped out,
that times of refreshing may come from the Lord,
Can you explain that in Peters 2[SUP]nd[/SUP] message
Why he left out to be “water baptized” ???

newbirth · Sep 13, 2014

Jason0047 said:

read the scripture...buried with HIM in baptism....the old man died ......wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead. New man risen through the faith of the operation of God.

who hath raised him from the dead.The scripture says we are risen with him who God raiesd from the dead...did not say anything about rapture..He is.speaking about what happens at baptism...... do you have faith in the operation of God?...
[SUP]
3 [/SUP]Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?

[SUP]4 [/SUP]Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.

[SUP]5 [/SUP]For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:
[SUP]6 [/SUP]Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.
[SUP]7 [/SUP]For he that is dead is freed from sin.
[SUP]8 [/SUP]Now if we be dead with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him:

[SUP]9 [/SUP]Knowing that Christ being raised from the dead dieth no more; death hath no more dominion over him.

[SUP]10 [/SUP]For in that he died, he died unto sin once: but in that he liveth, he liveth unto God.
[SUP]11 [/SUP]Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord.

Nick01 · Sep 13, 2014

newbirth said:

You made it in this post, where it seems you are being perfectly clear about your position. It is also quite in keeping with your statements in this post, where you said:

"the scripture says we are baptised into Christ.....one cannot get into Christ with sin....Clearly Paul's sins were not yet forgiven....at what point do you think they were forgiven??? It is Christ doing the work and if he says repent and be baptised for the remission of sins...then it is at that point he does the remitting"

I don't think it was a typo - I just think you're arguing any which way you can, and so are arguing things that are inconsistent with your other arguments. If you want to retract the above (i.e., that God remits sins at the point of water baptism), then feel free.

Precisely. So, if we've established that God can remit sins before water baptism, then what is your reason for saying water baptism is essential for forgiveness of sins? Would you agree that Acts 20 gives clear evidence of forgiveness of sins before water baptism? Your two responses above would seem to suggest you do. Therefore, there are obviously people whose sins were forgiven in advance of any water baptism.

Jason0047 · Sep 13, 2014

newbirth said:

Yes, baptism is a symbolic picture of the old man being crucified. For sin should not have dominion over us as true believers in Christ Jesus. For just as Christ lives, we are to live unto God (Christ). Baptism represents this symbolically. When you go down into the water, it is symbolic of the global flood (judgment against sin), just as God the Father had judged our sin that Jesus bore within His body on the cross (Whereby Jesus paid the penalty for our sin with his death). For the wages of sin is death. When Jesus had risen and is now with the Father alive, we believe that we shall also live with Him.

Jason0047 · Sep 13, 2014

Read verse 11 and think about what it just said. It said we are to RECKON (i.e. Think) that we are dead indeed to sin and are alive unto God. But if we are already dead and buried to sin in baptism, then there should be no concern or mention of how we are to RECKON that we are dead indeed to sin; For you are saying that we already dead and buried in baptism. But see, verse 11 refutes this type of thinking. Baptism must be symbolic. For it is saying that you still need to RECKON that you are dead to sin; And this would be true, because most believers struggle to put away some kind of sin within their life (Thru confessing it to the Lord and in forsaking it with the Lord's help). But if what you say is true, if we are dead and buried in baptism spiritually, then a believer would never ever stumble into sin again within their life.

newbirth · Sep 13, 2014

PACEMAKER said:

Devils believe that and tremble are you a hearer of the word or a doer of the word? We are stil saved by grace through faith and scripture has not changed ...
Acts 2:37-39King James Version (KJV)
[SUP]37 [/SUP]Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do?
[SUP]38 [/SUP]Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
[SUP]39 [/SUP]For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call.

your question is answered here..

[h=1]Colossians 2:10-12GOD’S WORD Translation (GW)[/h] [SUP]10 [/SUP]and God has made you complete in Christ. Christ is in charge of every ruler and authority. [SUP]11 [/SUP]In him you were also circumcised. It was not a circumcision performed by human hands. But it was a removal of the corrupt nature in the circumcision performed by Christ. [SUP]12 [/SUP]This happened when you were placed in the tomb with Christ through baptism. In baptism you were also brought back to life with Christ through faith in the power of God,[SUP][a][/SUP] who brought him back to life.

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